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So I think I have come full circle on this issue. I understand why, and I sympathize as to why southerners don't think it's an issue. In fact growing up in the south, watching dukes of hazard, and wearing t-shirts with the flag, I never considered it hateful, or even a problem. In fact if you didn't like it, too bad... I still don't consider it hateful, but I do think it's inconsiderate, not as bad as Nazi flag, but almost.

I mean the Nazi flag flown, even for the best intentions(if that were even possible), is still a Nazi flag.

I am the point that the confederate flag not be flown on state or US government property, and belongs in a museum.

If people want to fly it at their homes, that's their right, but take it down from public buildings. It represents too much hurt for minorities, and especially African American descendants of slaves.

What say Dakka?

GG

Well i have no problem with Daisy Duke wearing it.


But i understand that certain people could be annoyed by it.

It doesn't belong on government building or on any government property in general; it belongs in a museum. I don't care how anyone spins it, the Confederacy was treason. It was never a legitimate state and no nation recognized it as a sovereign nation and on top of that, they lost.

I'm technically from the South, my great-great-greatgrand uncle fought in the Civil War for Virginia, and I even live in Mosby Heritage Area... I fully enjoy the history of my state and my family, but I understand that what they did was wrong and I don't condone it.

I agree with John Oliver on the topic: "The Confederate flag one of those symbols that should really only be seen on T-shirts, belt buckles, and bumper stickers to help the rest of us identify the worst people in the world."

It has no purpose being on public property (unless for historical purpose such as a memorial to the US civil war).
I wouldn't want to compare the CSA to Nazi Germany. The CSA were undeniably evil, but not Nazi level evil.

The problem I think is that for many, the Confederate flag has become a symbol of Southern US culture, rather than the symbol of an opressive regime.
I still think it should be banned from any but historical use though. It is used by racist groups a lot as well, and combined with its origins I think that provides enough reason to ban it.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Well i have no problem with Daisy Duke wearing it.


But i understand that certain people could be annoyed by it.

Amen
Double Amen
Oh Rebel Yell Amen

I always thought this flag looked cool.

While technically no flag other than official national flags should be displayed I don't think it's really a big deal. I mean... it's a flag? It would be like me being upset at my British neighbor for him having his British flag displayed. Heck or even the American flag given what we see them get up to on the news. Both those flags have had disgusting things done under them but ultimately they are still merely flags.

Like all other flag issues no one will remember. A few years ago there was a huge thing about the Maori flag here in NZ and now I don't even remember what the issue is.

My friends and I walked into a house party in college. One of my friends is black. There was a confederate flag on the side of the house. We walked in, and the volume stopped. No sound. We decided to leave right away. As we walked out, somebody whispered the N-word. feth the confederate flag. And feth the southern, inbred traitors who had two teeth in their mouths.*

*reflection of people alive during the civil war who actively chose to be donkey-caves. Not people alive today, unless they approve of what the south did back then.

 Swastakowey wrote:
While technically no flag other than official national flags should be displayed I don't think it's really a big deal. I mean... it's a flag? It would be like me being upset at my British neighbor for him having his British flag displayed. Heck or even the American flag given what we see them get up to on the news. Both those flags have had disgusting things done under them but ultimately they are still merely flags.

The difference is that the Confederate flag is about nothing but the disgusting things done under it. The only reason the CSA ever existed is because they wanted an expansion of slavery, and a president was elected who wouldn't give that to them. Their constitution was the same as the US Constitution, except they added some bits supporting enslaving black people. Then they started a war against the rest of the United States.

The confederate flag is a symbol of slavery its like if the German national building all started having swastikas on them. Yeah not a great image huh. There is nothing justifable about a building especially a government building having a damn confederate flag on their buildings.

 Asherian Command wrote:
The confederate flag is a symbol of slavery its like if the German national building all started having swastikas on them. Yeah not a great image huh. There is nothing justifable about a building especially a government building having a damn confederate flag on their buildings.

Actually started out as a Battle Standard for those units representing the South
that Battle Flag was in turn used by Hate groups.

As for the Confederate Solders who are buried in the cemetery does that mean they to have to be relocated?

 Jihadin wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
The confederate flag is a symbol of slavery its like if the German national building all started having swastikas on them. Yeah not a great image huh. There is nothing justifable about a building especially a government building having a damn confederate flag on their buildings.

Actually started out as a Battle Standard for those units representing the South
that Battle Flag was in turn used by Hate groups.

As for the Confederate Solders who are buried in the cemetery does that mean they to have to be relocated?

No no. Just what the symbol has become, it should be taken off of the government not the people who have died, they are already dead how can a dead person offend someone?

They fought for and died for the South. Are the stones marked with a Confederate flag? The American Flag is now being refer somewhat like the Confederate flag

but we have this


Also a lot of


Notice the Symbol engraved?

A few of these also




Edit
Just checking the images are good. If they start calling for these symbolism to be removed. Would you agree or disagree to it?

The American Civil War was over slavery? I thought the issue that the South had was that they opposed all the states being bunched together under a central government. Hmn, I suppose the route causes were many, but saying that it was all down to that one thing is a gross simplification. For one the Union had plenty of people who supported slavery, hell Lincoln's opposition began with him just bowing down to public pressure on the matter (what was his line, "nobody wants you here, go back to Africa"). That and both sides treated foreigners pretty poorly in general (even when under the same flag things didn't get better fast, look at the railroad). Frankly that war had jack all to do with slavery, apart from to the politicians and those with money invested in the plantations, etc. The average guy was fighting for their state and the people they knew more than anything (Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

Well....we actually haven't had a good American Civil War debate in awhile

I don't know what grave marker or three with a confederate flag has to do with someone not wanting a flag flown on government property.

If he had been annoyed at it etched onto a grave marker, then fair cop. In regards to the topic of the thread though, you're a way off ways. We're talking about flying the flag, for all to see and all to be revolted by, rather than a small copy of the flag etched into a grave marker. May that be an issue eventually and need to be dealt with? Sure. Is that the issue here? Not at all.

Long story short, don't try and equate people wanting a flag like the confederate flag to stop being flown in front of government buildings with people wanting to change graves of the dead. Separate issues are separate issues, and trying to tag one side with "you also want to change grave markers", which is usually considered a pretty dodgy thing, is in and of itself a dodgy way to argue.

Not to mention, the flag wasnt even the confederate states of america flag. It was a regimental flag.
the KLAN was the one who popularized it

Ah, and on the subject of Confederate gravestones.



It'd be offensive to the people buried there to modify their graves just because someone doesn't agree with it, or do we do the same to Roman burials as our current society has moved on? Yeah, censoring history's a pretty dumb idea, or shall people start jumping into the same boat as say those terrorist groups in the Middle East who go about destroying pre-Islamic monuments because it doesn't fit their idea of the world (even if yes symbols like that interpretation of the swastika are reprehensible)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not to mention, the flag wasnt even the confederate states of america flag. It was a regimental flag.
the KLAN was the one who popularized it

It started out as a proposed design for the national flag, but was rejected for one that looks like the Texas one. Years later though it then replaced the older one. IIRC it originally took up the part of the US flag that has the stars on it instead of being the whole thing (that flag was all white too, without the stripes). So yes, technically it was a wide used banner and the real flag looked different, but the actual flag at least contained that image.

Meh, personally I prefer the blue flag of their's that came before any one was formally chosen. Though nowadays that too's more linked to neo-Nazi groups, because those guys seriously find trouble picking any imagery that isn't linked to a nationalist, Christian or Nazi symbol. =P

Heh, and for all the controversy about flying that particular flag, a couple of states have flags that are heavily influenced by it and the others used by the Confederacy... Hell two of them (scratch that Georgia went for an "influenced by" one) have the Confederate saltier on them.

 Wyrmalla wrote:

It'd be offensive to the people buried there to modify their graves just because someone doesn't agree with it, or do we do the same to Roman burials as our current society has moved on? Yeah, censoring history's a pretty dumb idea, or shall people start jumping into the same boat as say those terrorist groups in the Middle East who go about destroying pre-Islamic monuments because it doesn't fit their idea of the world (even if yes symbols like that interpretation of the swastika are reprehensible)?

Nothing I hate more than sanitising the past because it doesn't coincide with our current beliefs.I experience moments of horror every time one of those monuments gets blown up as it's gone forever, never to be replaced. Actually no, I hate ascribing modern terms onto people from the past . Lizzie I being the first feminist, don't make me vomit, she was a noble playing a high stakes game to become ruler, nothing about that is feminist, it's all about being in line for the throne and making a play for it. Also see Hebzibah.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
The American Civil War was over slavery? I thought the issue that the South had was that they opposed all the states being bunched together under a central government. Hmn, I suppose the route causes were many, but saying that it was all down to that one thing is a gross simplification.

You have been fed a line of apologist bs, Wyrmalla. The central government became an issue when their side lost the presidential election. It wasn't about states' rights, it was about the states' rights to continue and expand slavery.

Not just the Presidential Election, but for the first time since the ratification of the Constitution and the formation of the parties, the Democratic Party had lost control of both the House, Senate, and the White House. And they threw a hissy fit like spoiled children and started a war that killed millions because they were paranoid about abolition.

Yeah. Let's celebrate that the South fought for that

The Grave stones and things from the time when the flag was used have historical significance.

There is a huge difference between telling people to modify historical artifacts from x years ago and "Hey, lets hang this flag from x years ago because history!"

No. Germany doesn't hang Nazi flags. It's an embarrassing stain on their history. One to be remembered for what it was and as a lesson to not let it happen again.

Exact same thing with the confederate flag.

I am all for the removal of the Confederate Flag from ALL government buildings. You can say you like the flag and display it because its a southern culture thing, hell I have seen black people wearing Confederate flags on their clothing, but at the end of the day it has become a symbol of hatred.

I do hate that it took the murder of 9 people including a former US senator for people to think "hey lets take down that hate symbol flying on our state capital."

I've got mixed views on this. Firstly, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the first amendment yet.

Secondly, the whole treason thing is another issue. Yes, they were traitors, but American history is full of traitors. After all, the most famous traitor in American history has a capital city named after him...

It's a tough one. I can see this going all the way to the supreme court.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Firstly, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the first amendment yet.

Probably because it has nothing to do with this discussion. I find it hard to believe myself, but occasionally Americans can have a discussion of an issue without inappropriately citing the first (or second) amendment.

I can see this going all the way to the supreme court.

It won't, because there's no court case involved and there never will be.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Firstly, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the first amendment yet.

Probably because it has nothing to do with this discussion. I find it hard to believe myself, but occasionally Americans can have a discussion of an issue without inappropriately citing the first (or second) amendment.

I can see this going all the way to the supreme court.

It won't, because there's no court case involved and there never will be.

There is a relevance here. The governor of SC is calling for the confederate flag to be removed from public buildings. Anti-Racist groups want to go further.

It could snowball, and yet, even racists and idiots have first amendment rights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Firstly, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the first amendment yet.

Probably because it has nothing to do with this discussion. I find it hard to believe myself, but occasionally Americans can have a discussion of an issue without inappropriately citing the first (or second) amendment.

I can see this going all the way to the supreme court.

It won't, because there's no court case involved and there never will be.

There is a relevance here. The governor of SC is calling for the confederate flag to be removed from public buildings. Anti-Racist groups want to go further.

It could snowball, and yet, even racists and idiots have first amendment rights.

Edit: Mississippi to consider removing confederate emblem from its state flag: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/23/mississippi-confederate-flag-consider-dropping-emblem

Told you this could snowball.

Anyway, where does it stop? Hawaii has the British flag as part of its state flag, and you could argue that Britain was a bigger menace to America than the confederacy. After all, If Britain had won the revolutionary war...

They changed the Mississippi flag back in 2001 to one that din't have any Confederate symbols due to needing to comply with federal legislation (or something, it wasn't that a vote was taken in other words). However upon changing it two thirds of those who voted on what the new flag should look like went for the current design. Though it should be pointed out that the alternative design, whilst not having the saltire, appears to still have Confederate connotations which the choice of stripes.

Will that state or any of the others with such symbols have the same flag in 100 years? Pft, nah. Will there still be states in 100 years ...ah, hmn.

It is funny, because it is a flag that is directly against the U.S.
It is more anti-US than the ISIS flag or the Nazi flag. It was only ever officially used as to fight the U.S.

 generalgrog wrote:
So I think I have come full circle on this issue. I understand why, and I sympathize as to why southerners don't think it's an issue. In fact growing up in the south, watching dukes of hazard, and wearing t-shirts with the flag, I never considered it hateful, or even a problem. In fact if you didn't like it, too bad... I still don't consider it hateful, but I do think it's inconsiderate, not as bad as Nazi flag, but almost.

I mean the Nazi flag flown, even for the best intentions(if that were even possible), is still a Nazi flag.

I am the point that the confederate flag not be flown on state or US government property, and belongs in a museum.

If people want to fly it at their homes, that's their right, but take it down from public buildings. It represents too much hurt for minorities, and especially African American descendants of slaves.

What say Dakka?

GG

Agreed. When I was young the flag was a symbol of rebellion, of home. Had it not been for the KLan and the wackjobs it would have really been that.

But its not. The flag has become a symbol of racism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I've got mixed views on this. Firstly, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the first amendment yet.

Secondly, the whole treason thing is another issue. Yes, they were traitors, but American history is full of traitors. After all, the most famous traitor in American history has a capital city named after him...

It's a tough one. I can see this going all the way to the supreme court.

First Amendment doesn't apply to government property-aka government speech. Thats why Texas can stop slack jawed yokels from getting their "Sons of the Confederacy" License plates.

 Frazzled wrote:
Agreed. When I was young the flag was a symbol of rebellion, of home. Had it not been for the KLan and the wackjobs it would have really been that.

But its not. The flag has become a symbol of racism.

The flag has always been a symbol of racism. It wasn't the KKK who marched under the flag in a literal war against freedom and against democracy, it was the Confederates.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Agreed. When I was young the flag was a symbol of rebellion, of home. Had it not been for the KLan and the wackjobs it would have really been that.

But its not. The flag has become a symbol of racism.

The flag has always been a symbol of racism. It wasn't the KKK who marched under the flag in a literal war against freedom and against democracy, it was the Confederates.

Some of us are older than others, foreigner. Don't tell me what it was about.