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 Frazzled wrote:
Some of us are older than others, foreigner. Don't tell me what it was about.

Just to be sure: is your argument that you were already a grown man during the whole civil war thing? Woah, you are quite the elder!

One other thing to consider. I have a few ancestors that fought for North Carolina in the civil war. I personally thinks it's way overboard to call them traitors, because I think for the most part the lowly soldier was fighting to defend what they considered their home land.

But aside from that, I can honor their memory without the use of the battle flag, which I have read, was pretty much retired from public use until the 50's and 60's, when the civil rights era ramped up. I.E. it had gone out of style, until segregation was threatened.

So for me there were two instances that the battle flag was used by the south for the wrong reasons.

I recently read a good book by John Keegan on the civil war, in which he states a pretty interesting thing.

While most white southerners didn't own slaves, they certainly aspired to be slave owners, or at a minimum agreed with the practice. It was a small minority of southern whites who disagreed with slavery. I mean it was so imbedded in the culture that you had Huge Christian denominations split over the issue, such as the southern baptists, and southern methodists, and prebyterian splitting away from their northern counterparts over slavery.

This is an unfortunate era, and it does not need to be "Celebrated"

GG

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Some of us are older than others, foreigner. Don't tell me what it was about.

Just to be sure: is your argument that you were already a grown man during the whole civil war thing? Woah, you are quite the elder!

No (far older baby-the last of the neaderthals remembers the good old days).
Times have changed. When I was young they would play Dixie at important events, not the (incomprehensible) national anthem. You stood up. The South was the South. The flag was just a part of that.
Very different times.

Lucky for me, I still have the Texas flag, which like the Wiener Dog Flag* is a symbol of ultimate Greatness.


*TM

 Wyrmalla wrote:
The American Civil War was over slavery? I thought the issue that the South had was that they opposed all the states being bunched together under a central government. Hmn, I suppose the route causes were many, but saying that it was all down to that one thing is a gross simplification. For one the Union had plenty of people who supported slavery, hell Lincoln's opposition began with him just bowing down to public pressure on the matter (what was his line, "nobody wants you here, go back to Africa"). That and both sides treated foreigners pretty poorly in general (even when under the same flag things didn't get better fast, look at the railroad). Frankly that war had jack all to do with slavery, apart from to the politicians and those with money invested in the plantations, etc. The average guy was fighting for their state and the people they knew more than anything (Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

The ACW was over many things. Slavery was a key topic, but the primary reasoning that many like to point it was state rights. The southern states felt that the FedGov was in violation of the constitution, stepping on the 10th Amendment left and right, to include the issue over slavery.

If you read the articles of Secession produced by the states, you'll see that for the majority of them, keeping Slavery was the #1 listed reason they were doing it. So I always have a good laugh when you have the revisionist who argue that slavery was not the primary cause of the war. It wasn't the only cause though, that is certain.

One thing that I do lament about the war, the North did such a good job of winning it that the argument for state rights almost doesn't even exist anymore today. The FedGov's level of power has simply sky rocketed since the days that hundreds of thousands of Americans were willing to give there lives over the issue.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Agreed. When I was young the flag was a symbol of rebellion, of home. Had it not been for the KLan and the wackjobs it would have really been that.

But its not. The flag has become a symbol of racism.

The flag has always been a symbol of racism. It wasn't the KKK who marched under the flag in a literal war against freedom and against democracy, it was the Confederates.

Its was a Battle Standards flown alongside Regimental Colors which was used to a be a rallying point for Extremists group of a certain nature after the war.
Same as the American flag was used as a Battle Standard flown alongside Regimental Colors which is used as a rallying point for organizations today.

I mention patriotism, state right, etc etc etc that a soldier of that time line join up. After that first engagement that individual no longer fight whatever cause he initially join being he is now driven by hatred against the other side.

Do I feel the Confederate flag should be flown alongside the American flag? No. A memorial on the capitol grounds, as it currently stands? I have no problem with that. The Confederacy was a very important part of history for South Carolina. Not all memorials are there to embrace the good. We have federally ran memorials for Auschwitz. No one can point to that and say it's something to be celebrated, except for the Iranian's maybe.

We shouldn't hide history, and that flag represents a very important part of our national history. Should it be glorified? No. Should it be horrified? No. Should it be hidden away? No. It should be treated as what it is. History. Let the people see it, let them learn about it.

Since I don't care two rats fething about this issue being one can hang on their property the flag ('ve a metal plate Confederate flag on my driveway gate below metal "Badges" of my stack on the gate to) I concern if they're going to go on a tangent to remove all symbolism of the south from the grave sites. As someone mention who think its just maybe three markers, the removal of all Confederate symbols on the markers being those symbols were approved by the Confederate Congress (Southern Cross)

Edit

Vast majority of markers have the symbolism of the Southern Cross and CSA stamp into the stone

 djones520 wrote:
Do I feel the Confederate flag should be flown alongside the American flag? No. A memorial on the capitol grounds, as it currently stands? I have no problem with that. The Confederacy was a very important part of history for South Carolina. Not all memorials are there to embrace the good. We have federally ran memorials for Auschwitz. No one can point to that and say it's something to be celebrated, except for the Iranian's maybe.

We shouldn't hide history, and that flag represents a very important part of our national history. Should it be glorified? No. Should it be horrified? No. Should it be hidden away? No. It should be treated as what it is. History. Let the people see it, let them learn about it.

The only time I can see confederate flags on US or state government property are:
*Really old cematary with CSA war dead.
*ACW battlefield as one of the combatant flags.
*A display where all the state flags in history are displayed.

This is the last Confederate federal flag (March 4,1865 specifically)


Without the white and red parts it's just the confederate battle flag (or naval jack if its rectangular). It was picked as the symbol of the KKK because they originally claimed to be the spirits of dead confederate soldiers. They started as an insurgent movement during the Reconstruction period, only becoming a "legitimate" organization after the turn of the century.


So yeah, it shouldn't be flown over government buildings in my opinion

 Frazzled wrote:
Times have changed. When I was young they would play Dixie at important events, not the (incomprehensible) national anthem. You stood up. The South was the South,
Very different times.

Yeah, thing changes. Are you sad that people in the South feel like being a citizen of the U.S. is a more important part of their identity relatively to being part of the south of the U.S. now?

 djones520 wrote:
Do I feel the Confederate flag should be flown alongside the American flag? No. A memorial on the capitol grounds, as it currently stands? I have no problem with that. The Confederacy was a very important part of history for South Carolina. Not all memorials are there to embrace the good. We have federally ran memorials for Auschwitz. No one can point to that and say it's something to be celebrated, except for the Iranian's maybe.

Well, the Auschwitz memorial do not fly Nazi flag. Actually, those are completely forbidden in Germany. And no, the Iranian would definitely not call it a good thing. You would be surprised.
So, your example is really, really bad.
Putting the flag behind some glass in a museum? Sure. Flying it is a completely different matter.

 Frazzled wrote:

 generalgrog wrote:
So I think I have come full circle on this issue. I understand why, and I sympathize as to why southerners don't think it's an issue. In fact growing up in the south, watching dukes of hazard, and wearing t-shirts with the flag, I never considered it hateful, or even a problem. In fact if you didn't like it, too bad... I still don't consider it hateful, but I do think it's inconsiderate, not as bad as Nazi flag, but almost.

I mean the Nazi flag flown, even for the best intentions(if that were even possible), is still a Nazi flag.

I am the point that the confederate flag not be flown on state or US government property, and belongs in a museum.

If people want to fly it at their homes, that's their right, but take it down from public buildings. It represents too much hurt for minorities, and especially African American descendants of slaves.

What say Dakka?

GG

Agreed. When I was young the flag was a symbol of rebellion, of home. Had it not been for the KLan and the wackjobs it would have really been that.

But its not. The flag has become a symbol of racism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I've got mixed views on this. Firstly, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the first amendment yet.

Secondly, the whole treason thing is another issue. Yes, they were traitors, but American history is full of traitors. After all, the most famous traitor in American history has a capital city named after him...

It's a tough one. I can see this going all the way to the supreme court.

First Amendment doesn't apply to government property-aka government speech. Thats why Texas can stop slack jawed yokels from getting their "Sons of the Confederacy" License plates.

Damn it, Frazz! I want this to be a first amendment issue!!

I want the supreme court involved, I want lawyers making vast sums of money out of this. I want the film rights sold to Ridley Scott. I want Tom Cruise starring as an underdog lawyer, as he fights against corporate forces. I want Morgan Freeman giving Tom Cruise advice, I want this film winning Oscars.

I'm getting carried away. Anyway, am I right in saying that Kentucky was a slave state, but still stayed in the Union?

Yeah, thing changes. Are you sad that people in the South feel like being a citizen of the U.S. is a more important part of their identity relatively to being part of the south of the U.S. now?

Oh contraire. I am happy that Texans have finally realized their Greatness and ultimate humility in allowing the other states to join with it.

"You can all go to Hell. I am going to Texas."
-some guy.

I'm getting carried away. Anyway, am I right in saying that Kentucky was a slave state, but still stayed in the Union?

yep, as did Missouri. if only Texas had stayed in the Union, we could have taken Louisiana and Arkansas as a war prize. Oh wait, looks like we lucked out.

Why would he tell everyone to come join him?

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Why would he tell everyone to come join him?

"God made Texas to train the Faithful."
-Ancient Fremen saying.

I always preferred Salusa Secundus myself.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I always preferred Salusa Secundus myself.

Good call. Secundus is always lovely in the fall.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
The American Civil War was over slavery? I thought the issue that the South had was that they opposed all the states being bunched together under a central government. Hmn, I suppose the route causes were many, but saying that it was all down to that one thing is a gross simplification. For one the Union had plenty of people who supported slavery, hell Lincoln's opposition began with him just bowing down to public pressure on the matter (what was his line, "nobody wants you here, go back to Africa"). That and both sides treated foreigners pretty poorly in general (even when under the same flag things didn't get better fast, look at the railroad). Frankly that war had jack all to do with slavery, apart from to the politicians and those with money invested in the plantations, etc. The average guy was fighting for their state and the people they knew more than anything (Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

The Civil war was complicated.

It was slavery, technology, religion, political, and based on several other things. The Civil War happened because it was bound to happen whether it was by slavery or not.

The Northernors did use the moral right of slavery as bad to justify their side of the war. But the civil war was mostly born from fear of change.


And to answer that no confederate grave stones are fine, why wouldn''t they? Thats not on a government building. I know some people who were a pendant of the nazi regime because they served under hitler's regime, they said it was a very proud moment for them to gate that pendant from the Third Reich. I see no problem with it as the military of the third reich were not the problem the SS were.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
(Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

Are you referring to Lee? Because Custer was from Ohio (a northern state) and fought for the Union.

 Hordini wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
(Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

Are you referring to Lee? Because Custer was from Ohio (a northern state) and fought for the Union.

^^^^

Yeah Custer wasn't even a great general, like most north generals as well who are all basically screwed up until Chamerblin and another general started to lead the north.

 Hordini wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
(Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

Are you referring to Lee? Because Custer was from Ohio (a northern state) and fought for the Union.

It was Lee.
Custer was in the cavalry and was known to charge recklessly. Who would have thunk it.

The real issue is this:

Are black people offended by flying the confederate flag from government buildings -- yes.

Do they have a reasonable cause to be genuinely offended, or is this just the typical kind of complaint that SIWs complain about? Obviously they do have ample cause to be offended, given the flag's asssociation with decades of discrimination against them.

Who will suffer if the flags are taken down? Essentially, SIWs.

How will they suffer? It compromises their interests in frustrating black people. They can still fly the flags themselves to spread as much offence as they want, protected by free speech.

So take the flags down. No-one is the slightest bit worried about Hawaii.

I'm worried about Hawaii...worried that this glass is not full of a tasty Mai Tai complete with fresh pineapple!!!!

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The real issue is this:

Are black people offended by flying the confederate flag from government buildings -- yes.

It's not just black people. It's really, really not. This is far beyond a white vs. black issue and shouldn't be portrayed as such.

 Hordini wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The real issue is this:

Are black people offended by flying the confederate flag from government buildings -- yes.

It's not just black people. It's really, really not. This is far beyond a white vs. black issue and shouldn't be portrayed as such.

Yeah, I'm white as hell and I'm offended by it.

 Hordini wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The real issue is this:

Are black people offended by flying the confederate flag from government buildings -- yes.

It's not just black people. It's really, really not. This is far beyond a white vs. black issue and shouldn't be portrayed as such.

I am offended by it as well and my family didn't come to the united states till the 1900s.

And we are all offended by it.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
(Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

Are you referring to Lee? Because Custer was from Ohio (a northern state) and fought for the Union.

^^^^

Yeah Custer wasn't even a great general, like most north generals as well who are all basically screwed up until Chamerblin and another general started to lead the north.

Chamberlain was a COL at Gettysburg, and was never a general who 'led the North'. He got a Division command, no higher.

As for the flag issue, at what point will folks be happy? Do we need to outlaw it so that even having accurate confederate flags for miniature war game units is illegal (much like you cant have accurate WW2 German markings on model aircraft/ships and so on sold in Germany?)

 CptJake wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
(Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

Are you referring to Lee? Because Custer was from Ohio (a northern state) and fought for the Union.

^^^^

Yeah Custer wasn't even a great general, like most north generals as well who are all basically screwed up until Chamerblin and another general started to lead the north.

Chamberlain was a COL at Gettysburg, and was never a general who 'led the North'. He got a Division command, no higher.

As for the flag issue, at what point will folks be happy? Do we need to outlaw it so that even having accurate confederate flags for miniature war game units is illegal (much like you cant have accurate WW2 German markings on model aircraft/ships and so on sold in Germany?)

I think they won't be. I mean right now there is an ultra sensitivity thing going on.

But Germans are quite sensitive on the Nazi's but I think there is a big difference between the confederacy and the Nazi Regime. One committed genocide one was doing something that was considered an old tradition. A horrible horrible tradition. But I don't think that it sshould be flown over a government building whether people have the confederate flag and fly it on their own personal property. That is completely fine thats their right. Its offensive but it is their right.

Slavery has been apart of history for thousands of years. I mean the word slave comes from the Word Slav. Aka Slavic peoples became slaves for others to use.

Also thanks for the correction its been a long time since I read civil war history.

 CptJake wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
(Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

Are you referring to Lee? Because Custer was from Ohio (a northern state) and fought for the Union.

^^^^

Yeah Custer wasn't even a great general, like most north generals as well who are all basically screwed up until Chamerblin and another general started to lead the north.

Chamberlain was a COL at Gettysburg, and was never a general who 'led the North'. He got a Division command, no higher.

As for the flag issue, at what point will folks be happy? Do we need to outlaw it so that even having accurate confederate flags for miniature war game units is illegal (much like you cant have accurate WW2 German markings on model aircraft/ships and so on sold in Germany?)

Not outlaw. Take off government property (as noted outside of battlefields and such).

Note: Don't be deceived by the polite discussion we're having here. Here's more the flavor of what the real defenders of this stuff are saying on other sites when you disagree:

"You are as ignorant of history as you are a worthless POS. I would expect you to be right up front of the PC crowd burning books and restricting speech.You have really mainlined that crap about ones pride of the South having to do with hate and racism.
My family has been in Texas since 1826 . No slaves in our history but many proud warriors that fought for Texas in the War of Northern Aggression .

It is my hope that a-holes like yourself would remove your worthless bed wetting hides from Texas and take your POS PC crowd with you.

I would fully support Texas leaving the US again. "

i must admit I haven't heard someone seriously call it the WNA in more than a few years. Now that brings back memories. I'd hate to see what the real mouthbreather sites are saying.

 CptJake wrote:

Spoiler:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
(Custer was originally going to lead the Union, but his home was in the South.).

Are you referring to Lee? Because Custer was from Ohio (a northern state) and fought for the Union.

^^^^

Yeah Custer wasn't even a great general, like most north generals as well who are all basically screwed up until Chamerblin and another general started to lead the north.

Chamberlain was a COL at Gettysburg, and was never a general who 'led the North'. He got a Division command, no higher.

As for the flag issue, at what point will folks be happy? Do we need to outlaw it so that even having accurate confederate flags for miniature war game units is illegal (much like you cant have accurate WW2 German markings on model aircraft/ships and so on sold in Germany?)

Nobody is going to stop a person's right to express themselves. But government buildings flying a flag now associated with racism and prejudice? Well within the scope of reasonable removal.

My personal opinion is states (and counties/municipalities) should figure it out. If the residents of South Carolina are ready to embrace modernity and ditch the confederate battle flag, great for them. I don't think the federal gov't ought to get involved.

I also worry about how it eventually goes, using my war game unit as an example. When the torches get lit and the mobs gather, they tend to go way overboard. I personally feel having to remove a picture from a war gaming web site for showing a painted 1:2400 model of the Bismarck with the swastika on the bow is asinine (and it happened to me, I posted a picture of the model on LAF). I can very much see laws being written in such a way that existing grave stones, museums and sanctioned history books are the only places the flag can be displayed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do we need to rename Ft Lee, Ft Hood, Ft Gordon, Ft Benning, Ft Bragg, Ft Polk and so on as well?