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We're going to have issues if the PC crowd goes all out on name changes
Arlington National Cemetery is a United States military cemetery in Arlington County, Virginia, across the Potomac River from Washington, D.C., in whose 624 acres (253 ha) have been buried the dead of the nation's conflicts beginning with the American Civil War, as well as reinterred dead from earlier wars.
The cemetery was established during the Civil War on the grounds of Arlington House, which had been the estate of the family of Confederate general Robert E. Lee's wife Mary Anna (Custis) Lee (a great-granddaughter of Martha Washington). The cemetery, along with Arlington House, Memorial Drive, the Hemicycle, and the Arlington Memorial Bridge, form the Arlington National Cemetery Historic District, listed on the National Register of Historic Places in April 2014.[2][3]
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
I have an honest question. Not being facitious or rude.
What does the south have "Pride" in? Why do they need a symbol of "The South" and what do they have pride in?
kronk wrote: I am 100% fine with not flying the Confederate Flag at a state or national government building.
I see no reason to rename our existing Forts Hood, Lee, or Bragg.
I do.
Fort Hood: Fort TBone
Fort Lee: Fort Vader
Fort Bragg: Fort Mel Brooks
I have an honest question. Not being facitious or rude.
What does the south have "Pride" in? Why do they need a symbol of "The South" and what do they have pride in?
*Our proximity to Mexico
*Our superior culinary and pickup driving skills
*We have most of our teeth.
*Bourbon
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 15:46:22
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
kronk wrote: I am 100% fine with not flying the Confederate Flag at a state or national government building.
I see no reason to rename our existing Forts Hood, Lee, or Bragg. This is not an "all or nothing" situation.
I also see no reason to outright ban the confederate flag from private citizens. Everyone has the right to freedom of speech. That makes it easy to know who the donkey-caves are.
I'm with kronk here...
It also feels like it's becoming a side-show here, feeding the perpetual outrage machine.
CptJake wrote: A threat back then that was defeated and is now gone just isn't as scary to me as Lil Kim with nukes right now.
So it is about being scary?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
kronk wrote: I am 100% fine with not flying the Confederate Flag at a state or national government building.
I see no reason to rename our existing Forts Hood, Lee, or Bragg. This is not an "all or nothing" situation.
I also see no reason to outright ban the confederate flag from private citizens. Everyone has the right to freedom of speech. That makes it easy to know who the donkey-caves are.
I'm with kronk here...
It also feels like it's becoming a side-show here, feeding the perpetual outrage machine.
Considering what just a few people can do, shut down a business or ruin it online with outrage, you best listen to them.
I mean, you must always appease those who threaten you into doing what they are saying, even if they tend to be small people who use threats to get what they want.........wait......isnt that terrorism
CptJake wrote: A threat back then that was defeated and is now gone just isn't as scary to me as Lil Kim with nukes right now.
So it is about being scary?
As a Southerner who lives in the South, IME It's about any of the following, in any combination:
-Giving homage to ancestors who died in battle
-Being openly racist
-Expressing open disapproval of the US Government
-Expressing unfriendliness with non-WASP neighbors.
-Being a "rebel" in the rock and roll sense of the word (the same reason why many European hip hop types are drawn to Islam)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 15:58:58
CptJake wrote: A threat back then that was defeated and is now gone just isn't as scary to me as Lil Kim with nukes right now.
So it is about being scary?
Maybe poor word choice on my part. Having said that, to think there is any level of appropriateness to flying a Nork or DaIsh flag here just astounds me. Folks can give historical reasons to fly a confederate flag (and there are some mentioned in this thread). Folks can explain why that flag is insulting (and have in this thread). But the flag of nations/organizations we are actively fighting or are actively threatening our allies just don't have any reasonable excuse to be flown here. That not one of you suggesting they are more appropriate can (or has) come up with any justification to display them is pretty telling. Seems to be hyperbolic spouting off more than a real argument/point trying to be made.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 15:59:50
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
CptJake wrote: A threat back then that was defeated and is now gone just isn't as scary to me as Lil Kim with nukes right now.
So it is about being scary?
Maybe poor word choice on my part. Having said that, to think there is any level of appropriateness to flying a Nork or DaIsh flag here just astounds me. Folks can give historical reasons to fly a confederate flag (and there are some mentioned in this thread). Folks can explain why that flag is insulting (and have in this thread). But the flag of nations/organizations we are actively fighting or are actively threatening our allies just don't have any reasonable excuse to be flown here. That not one of you suggesting they are more appropriate can (or has) come up with any justification to display them is pretty telling. Seems to be hyperbolic spouting off more than a real argument/point trying to be made.
Plenty of people have given you justifcations
...you just don't like them, which is fine.
At the same title, of course it's hyperbolic. There's no reason for the government to fly any flag of a state it is no part of, he rebel flag included.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 16:05:22
CptJake wrote: A threat back then that was defeated and is now gone just isn't as scary to me as Lil Kim with nukes right now.
So it is about being scary?
Maybe poor word choice on my part. Having said that, to think there is any level of appropriateness to flying a Nork or DaIsh flag here just astounds me. Folks can give historical reasons to fly a confederate flag (and there are some mentioned in this thread). Folks can explain why that flag is insulting (and have in this thread). But the flag of nations/organizations we are actively fighting or are actively threatening our allies just don't have any reasonable excuse to be flown here. That not one of you suggesting they are more appropriate can (or has) come up with any justification to display them is pretty telling. Seems to be hyperbolic spouting off more than a real argument/point trying to be made.
Plenty of people have given you justifcations
...you just don't like them, which is fine.
No, they have given justification for not flying the confederate flag. If I missed justifications for the Norks or DaIsh actually being more appropriate, please point me towards them.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
If you can name a failed state born out of treason against the US, who raised arms against their countrymen on US soil, and who were utterly defeated and brought to heel, and whose progeny continue to idealize the failed state, then we have apples to apples.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 16:09:18
jasper76 wrote: -Being a "rebel" in the rock and roll sense of the word (the same reason why many European hip hop types are drawn to Islam)
Why “European”? What about American groups like “Nation of Islam”, for instance?
CptJake wrote: But the flag of nations/organizations we are actively fighting or are actively threatening our allies just don't have any reasonable excuse to be flown here.
Well, the point was that neither have the flags of organizations who were actively fighting against the U.S. for the whole duration of their existence.
CptJake wrote: That not one of you suggesting they are more appropriate can (or has) come up with any justification to display them is pretty telling.
They are not “more appropriate” per se, they are somehow less inappropriate. They are of course not appropriate, but it seems to me the Confederate flag is even less so.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
How far do we need to go? If that flag turned into something that means racism and must be taken down from public spaces, then anything to Robert C Byrd would need to be taken down/renamed.
Just playing by the same rules... eh?
As anyone living in West Virginia, that former Senator Robert C Byrd can be seen everywhere, who was once a high ranking member of the KKK (keagle), who infamously FILIBUSTERED the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts.
The Robert C. Byrd Green Bank Telescope in Green Bank, West Virginia. Robert C. Byrd Academic and Technology Center, Marshall University in Huntington, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Academic and Technology Center, Marshall University Graduate College in South Charleston, West Virginia[9][10] Robert C. Byrd Auditorium, National Conservation Training Center in Shepherdstown, West Virginia[9][10][11] Robert C. Byrd Biotechnology Science Center, Marshall University in Huntington, West Virginia[6][9][10][12][13] Robert C. Byrd Cancer Research Laboratory, West Virginia University in Morgantown, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Center for Legislative Studies, Shepherd University in Shepherdstown, West Virginia[9][10][14] Robert C. Byrd Center for Pharmacy Education, University of Charleston in Charleston, West Virginia[9][10] Robert C. Byrd Center for Rural Health, Marshall University in Huntington, West Virginia[6][9] Robert C. Byrd Clinical Teaching Center, Charleston Area Medical Center Memorial Hospital in Charleston, West Virginia[9][10] Robert C. Byrd Green Bank Telescope, Green Bank, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Hardwood Technologies Center, Princeton, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Health and Wellness Center, Bethany College in Bethany, West Virginia[9][10] Robert C. Byrd Health Sciences Center, West Virginia University in Morgantown, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Health Sciences Center Charleston Division, Charleston, West Virginia[9] Robert C. Byrd High School, Clarksburg, West Virginia[6][9][15] Robert C. Byrd Institute for Advanced Flexible Manufacturing (RCBI) Bridgeport Manufacturing Technology Center, Bridgeport, West Virginia[9][10][16] RCBI Charleston Manufacturing Technology Center, South Charleston, West Virginia[6][9][10][16] RCBI Huntington Manufacturing Technology Center, Huntington, West Virginia[9][10][16] RCBI Rocket Center Manufacturing Technology Center, Rocket Center, West Virginia[9][10][16][17] Robert C. Byrd Institute for Composites Technology and Training Center, Bridgeport, West Virginia[9] Robert C. Byrd Library, Wheeling, West Virginia[9] Robert C. Byrd Library and Robert C. Byrd Learning Resource Center, University of Charleston in Beckley[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Life Long Learning Center, Eastern West Virginia Community and Technical College in Moorefield, West Virginia[9] Robert C. Byrd Life Long Learning Center, West Virginia University in Morgantown, West Virginia[10] Robert C. Byrd Metals Fabrication Center, Rocket Center, West Virginia[9][10][17] Robert C. Byrd National Aerospace Education Center, Bridgeport, West Virginia (affiliated with Fairmont State University)[9][10] Robert C. Byrd National Technology Transfer Center, Wheeling Jesuit University in Wheeling, West Virginia[6][9][18] Robert C. Byrd Regional Training Institute, Camp Dawson near Kingwood, West Virginia[9] Robert C. Byrd Science and Technology Center, Shepherd University in Shepherdstown, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Technology Center, Alderson–Broaddus College in Philippi, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd United Technical Center[6][10] Commerce[edit] Robert C. Byrd Hilltop Office Complex, Rocket Center, West Virginia[6][9][10][17] Robert C. Byrd Industrial Park, Moorefield, West Virginia[6][9][10] Community[edit] Robert C. Byrd Community Center, Pine Grove, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Community Center, Sugar Grove, West Virginia[6][10] Government[edit] Robert C. Byrd Rooms, Office of the West Virginia Senate Minority Leader, West Virginia State Capitol in Charleston, West Virginia[9] Robert C. Byrd United States Courthouse and Federal Building, Beckley, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd United States Courthouse and Federal Building, Charleston, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Federal Correctional Institution, Hazelton, West Virginia[6][10] Healthcare[edit] Robert C. Byrd Clinic, West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine in Lewisburg, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Clinical Addition to Veteran's Hospital, Huntington, West Virginia[6][9][10] Recreation and tourism[edit] Robert C. Byrd Addition to the Lodge at Oglebay Park, Wheeling, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Conference Center (also known as the Robert C. Byrd Center for Hospitality and Tourism), Davis & Elkins College in Elkins, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Visitor Center, Harpers Ferry National Historical Park in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia[6][9][10] Transportation[edit]
The Robert C. Byrd Bridge crossing the Ohio River between Huntington, West Virginia and Chesapeake, Ohio. Robert C. Byrd Appalachian Highway System, Appalachian Development Highway System in West Virginia[9][10][19] Robert C. Byrd Bridge, crosses the Ohio River between Huntington, West Virginia and Chesapeake, Ohio[6][9][10][19] Robert C. Byrd Bridge, Ohio County, West Virginia[19] Robert C. Byrd Drive, West Virginia Routes 16 and 97 between Beckley and Sophia, West Virginia[6][10] Robert C. Byrd Expressway, United States Route 22 near Weirton, West Virginia[6][9][10] Robert C. Byrd Freeway, United States Route 119 between Williamson and Charleston, West Virginia (also known as Corridor G)[6][9] Robert C. Byrd Highway, United States Route 48 between Weston, West Virginia and the Virginia state line near Wardensville, West Virginia (also known as Corridor H)[6][19] Robert C. Byrd Interchange on Interstate 77[9] Robert C. Byrd Interchange on United States Route 19, Birch River, West Virginia[9][19] Robert C. Byrd Intermodal Transportation Center, Wheeling, West Virginia[9][10] Robert C. Byrd Locks and Dam, Ohio River in Gallipolis Ferry, West Virginia[6][9][10]
It's a fething side show that doesn't address real world issues.
For cripes sake, during Bill Clinton political career, his campaign used the bars and stripes motif endlessly.
An enemy 200+ years ago is just not the same as a current one. Heck, we are good allies with the UK, yet they burned down the White House (which I am sure Lee regretted not being able to do ).
I guess if folks want to have a discussion about the confederate flag, putting forth the position that the DaIsh flag is more appropriate today is not an argument winner. They (DaIsh) are currently a VERY brutal actor and are currently engaging in the enslavement of folks they conquer. And we are currently sending pilots and flight crews into danger in an attempt to contain them. Admitting it is hyperbole is good. Continuing to argue it (as someone seems to be doing) frankly flabbergasts me.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
To quote a Muslim friend of mine "[The Nation of Islam] are about as Muslim as the Westboro Baptist Church". Which is to say they are not in any way, outside using the name 'Islam'.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
An enemy 200+ years ago is just not the same as a current one. Heck, we are good allies with the UK, yet they burned down the White House (which I am sure Lee regretted not being able to do ).
I guess if folks want to have a discussion about the confederate flag, putting forth the position that the DaIsh flag is more appropriate today is not an argument winner. They (DaIsh) are currently a VERY brutal actor and are currently engaging in the enslavement of folks they conquer. And we are currently sending pilots and flight crews into danger in an attempt to contain them. Admitting it is hyperbole is good. Continuing to argue it (as someone seems to be doing) frankly flabbergasts me.
I think the main point is that its kind of silly for citizens to expect their government to issue license plates with the flag of a traitor nation, just because they identify with it for whatever reason.
Just go buy a damn bumper sticker, a t-shirt, wave a flag in your front yard, or whatever, and whistle Dixie til your face turns blue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 16:30:45
An enemy 200+ years ago is just not the same as a current one. Heck, we are good allies with the UK, yet they burned down the White House (which I am sure Lee regretted not being able to do ).
But the enemy is a current one, they just killed 9 americans on US soil. What flag is dylann proudly waving in the picture when you see links to his manifesto? How many americans have NK killed lately?
It doesn't matter how the flag was originally used, Today it is a symbol of racism, used by white supremacists groups. So leave it in a civil war museum and off of the flags used today. If people really honored the confederate flag they should be demanding it not be flown so that the racist groups don't continue to defile their southern heritage.
Yes Whembly the democrats USED to be the racist party, but that was then and today the republicans proudly wear that title.
as for naming places, The south lost, because they lost they were traitors to america, and deserve no recognition. Anyone honoring these traitors as "american hero's" are therefore traitors.
Really I agree with people saying that the south is the most racist, ignorant, inbreed, and counter productive parts of the country. And that flag is a symbol of oppression and slavery (shut up it is) So yeah I do think it should be removed...
It would be like if some town in Germany still uses a nazi flag (a little overboard I know.)
But what do I know I live in the wacky state of California *sigh*
First rule of Avatars in a room is: you never call the mods. Second rule of Avatars in a room is: you never call the mods. -Tyler Durden
All this "I can't believe you want to change every place that is named after a civil war person" or "no one ever will be allowed to sell it ever"....where is that coming from? I mean the OP was about not flying it at state/federal government locations. That's it. Which side of the argument made it about renaming military bases and never ever selling it?
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
An enemy 200+ years ago is just not the same as a current one. Heck, we are good allies with the UK, yet they burned down the White House (which I am sure Lee regretted not being able to do ).
I guess if folks want to have a discussion about the confederate flag, putting forth the position that the DaIsh flag is more appropriate today is not an argument winner. They (DaIsh) are currently a VERY brutal actor and are currently engaging in the enslavement of folks they conquer. And we are currently sending pilots and flight crews into danger in an attempt to contain them. Admitting it is hyperbole is good. Continuing to argue it (as someone seems to be doing) frankly flabbergasts me.
I think the main point is that its kind of silly for citizens to expect their government to issue license plates with the flag of a traitor nation, just because they identify with it for whatever reason.
Just go buy a damn bumper sticker, a t-shirt, wave a flag in your front yard, or whatever, and whistle Dixie til your face turns blue.
Good words.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: And here we are not even talking about the flag of a nation, but the flag of an army whose very purpose was destroying the United states.
The Confederate army wasn't trying to destroy the United States.
That was the immediate purpose for its existence. To stop Federal armies from preserving the Union.
That is something worth talking about, and worth championing. I can't think of a more power act of what it's means to be a Christian there...
Christian what ? How did this thread become about Christianity?
jasper76 wrote: Fair enough. I was just throwing out an example of "counter-culture" off the top of my head with which you may be familiar.
Oh. Siouxsie Sioux wearing a swastika then.
Ahtman wrote: To quote a Muslim friend of mine "[The Nation of Islam] are about as Muslim as the Westboro Baptist Church". Which is to say they are not in any way, outside using the name 'Islam'.
To quote myself: whatever.
People saying other people are not Muslims or not Christians, but that they are the real deal…
Have you looked at the context? Certainly quite a bunch of black Americans turned to Islam as a “rebellion” against “white” Christianity. Which is funny when you think about it, given how Arabs have treated Black people. It was about on par with how Europeans (and Europeans abroad, I would have said Americans but the Native Americans have nothing to do into it) have treated Black people.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
I've got the blood of a Union general flowing through my veins (General George Meade, if anyone actually wanted to know, on my dad's side of the family tree). Coupled with my experience in college of people flying the confederate flag, I'm pretty against what it used to stand for and what it stands for now.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
Full disclosure: My ancestors on both sides of the family fought for the CSA.
I have never owned a confederate flag of any form, battle or otherwise. Though I probably have more "right" to wear it for heritage reason than most of the doorknobs who do actually fly the thing. I have no opinion on the flags presence on official government flagpoles and plates. I can see arguments for either side, really.
I think the main point is that its kind of silly for citizens to expect their government to issue license plates with the flag of a traitor nation, just because they identify with it for whatever reason.
Just go buy a damn bumper sticker, a t-shirt, wave a flag in your front yard, or whatever, and whistle Dixie til your face turns blue.
This.
I also see no reason to outright ban the confederate flag from private citizens.
But some do, and those people drive me closer and closer to flying the stars and bars for the simple joy of seeing them froth at the mouth.
Wonder if the re-enactors who do the Gettysburg Battle have to stop flying the Stars and Bars
Edit
Since Gettysburg Battlefield is on government property
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 17:10:28
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Jihadin wrote: Wonder if the re-enactors who do the Gettysburg Battle have to stop flying the Stars and Bars
Edit
Since Gettysburg Battlefield is on government property
you should be more concerned about their potential for stroke and heart attacks while re-enacting. have you seen them? Some of them are right fluffy on the weight scale.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
motyak wrote: All this "I can't believe you want to change every place that is named after a civil war person" or "no one ever will be allowed to sell it ever"....where is that coming from? I mean the OP was about not flying it at state/federal government locations. That's it. Which side of the argument made it about renaming military bases and never ever selling it?
It's called the slippery slope fallacy. A lot of that happening in this thread.
Dogma is better at explaining it Than I, but the basic strategy is to claim that if you take one minor step, it ABSOLUTELY HAS TOO lead to massive unexpected consequences, even though there really isn't proof that these MASSIVE consequences might happen.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
).
