Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 whembly wrote:
You say that we're a "racist country".

I see a President who's the first African American elected to our highest office.

You're pretty far from the mark if you think that having a black president means racism is is gone. Like Obama said on Marc Maron's podcast... yeah, we've come a long way, but there is still more than can be done.

I see it and hear it almost every day. I know die hard Democrats that refused to vote for Obama solely because of his skin color. I've heard supervisors at my work refuse to hire people because they weren't white, no matter how qualified they were. For feth's sake, my piece of gak uncle said the only thing Dylan Roof did wrong was shoot those people in a church. This is all in my little sphere in Northern Virginia... I've spent considerable time in Georgia, and it was worse there.

 Manchu wrote:
You are going on and on about white guilt. My posts have nothing to do with white guilt. I chose the metaphor of having a cold specifically to explain the nuances of moral responsibility: namely, looking at the world with a racist mindset is not a matter of guilt; doing racist things, however, is. The truth is, living in the USA is living in a racist society. We started forming a racist mindset in the crib. When we look at each other, we can't help but see race and not just as some neutral social fact but with all the attendant prejudices. We need to be a bit self-aware and self-critical about these notions we've inherited from our forbears and that we pick up as we live our lives. Overcoming our racism is not about feeling guilty; it's about being mindful and considerate and reflective.

An expected reply from someone who has been frankly conditioned by progressivism.

My posts have nothing to do with white guilt.
- Actually they have a lot to do with white guilt, you cant see it because your perspective has been taken away.

The truth is, living in the USA is living in a racist society.
- True, but all societies are racist. But you are told to see your own racism if you fair to be insufficiently welcoming.
Others are not being racist if they avoid negativity.

We started forming a racist mindset in the crib.
- Actually not really, but as you weren't really self aware then you wont know you have been lied to unless a counter argument is presented.
You are aware of your identity from an early age, but as a infant your recognition doesn't go beyond your own immediate family.
Education can successfully create a multi ethnic culture, there are many historica examples. Multi-culturalism is a lot harder, and its very hard to find successful examples outside the the caste system, and that is inherently highly unequal, but workable because each caste has its place.

We need to be a bit self-aware and self-critical about these notions we've inherited from our forbears and that we pick up as we live our lives
- You do, but do others?

Overcoming our racism is not about feeling guilty; it's about being mindful and considerate and reflective.
- That is guilt right there. You have an expectation for sacrificial giving to build a broken society. You might not see this at first, but you must be reflective and considerate, must others? Often not. The burden is on you.

I put the above in spoiler tags as it isn't part of my argument, but it is interesting that the same language was used.
There has been a lot of media coverage about race disputes in the US of late, and mindful/considerate/reflective doesn't seem to describe the means of self expression.
The fact that these attitudes are targeted at the 'political majority' which largely means the white middle class (though not exclusively), others are not expected to share this mindset and excuses are made to a large degree, as evidenced time and again in recent months.
Guilt comes into it because it is the quiet fuel for the mindful reflection you have to maintain, and its sacrificial because some are allowed to ask for more, others are not. Indeed they are expected to feel privileged enough, which cycles back to guilt.
No one is flogging you with a whip or forcing you to shave your head or wear a horse hair shirt, but the guilt inducement is quietly there in society.

If you want to deal with race inequality you need to get legislation in order. That job is long complete in the US, Canada and modern Europe. Beyond that its a cultural delimiter.
However some core issues need addressing and one core issue, the language barriers has yet to be addressed, and in the current climate cannot be addressed. Neither Americas nor Europe is ready for it yet.

 zombiekila707 wrote:
TRAITORS!! lol

Really I agree with people saying that the south is the most racist, ignorant, inbreed, and counter productive parts of the country.

Take that hatred somewhere else man.

And people wonder why southerners feel the need to form a counter identity. Its because of statements like this.

Given you dismiss everything I say as brainwashing, I can tell we're nearing the end of this exchange. But I will ask about this:

 Orlanth wrote:
You do, but do others?

What exactly do you mean by this question? Repeated here, along with the nasty idea that being considerate amounts to being guilty:

 Orlanth wrote:
Overcoming our racism is not about feeling guilty; it's about being mindful and considerate and reflective.
- That is guilt right there. You have an expectation for sacrificial giving to build a broken society. You might not see this at first, but you must be reflective and considerate, must others? Often not. The burden is on you.

Who is "you" here?

 whembly wrote:

So what's the solution.

All I'm reading is that, there's a problem.

We've had years of Desegregation programs.

Years of Affirmative Action programs.

Years of preferential college tuition/attendence programs.

And on, and on...

You say that we're a "racist country".

I see a President who's the first African American elected to our highest office.

Maybe it's because I see it as "glass half-full" and you're seeing these as "glass half-empty"?

And everyone was just so overjoyed at having a black president, look at everything he accomplished. Well he tried to accomplish stuff. He will go down in history as the most filibustered president ever. While those that shut down the government get re elected into office and run for president later.

There has been some improvement over the years, but there's still a long way to go before every american is equal.
If anyone here had the solution we'd be off to collect our noble peace prize by now. The steps that are needed to get us to a solution is:

1. Admit we still have a problem
2. Discus the problem
3. come up with solutions.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:
You say that we're a "racist country".

I see a President who's the first African American elected to our highest office.

You're pretty far from the mark if you think that having a black president means racism is is gone. Like Obama said on Marc Maron's podcast... yeah, we've come a long way, but there is still more than can be done.

I see it and hear it almost every day. I know die hard Democrats that refused to vote for Obama solely because of his skin color. I've heard supervisors at my work refuse to hire people because they weren't white, no matter how qualified they were. For feth's sake, my piece of gak uncle said the only thing Dylan Roof did wrong was shoot those people in a church. This is all in my little sphere in Northern Virginia... I've spent considerable time in Georgia, and it was worse there.

I never meant it that it's gone.

Jeeze...

Are we denying that progress hasn't happened?

 Evident-Disaster wrote:
Hey guys, I just noticed this thread and I was curious if anyone could answer this small bit of confusion. But during the Vietnam War, there were marines and military personnel who used to go around waving the Confederate flag during deployments, apparently the US military didn't particularly pay attention and let that continue.
But what did the flag symbolize? I mean they had African American personnel with them, it seemed kinda odd.

Was it patriotism or something obscure?

If you care to wade through 15+ pages of thread, you'll see that Jihadin kind of addressed this earlier (it's cool, you're new).

Thing is, it used to be, in the military you were allowed membership into hategroups, so long as you didn't preach that hatred. That is no longer true, but I'm sure there's still people out there who do, they just keep it real quiet.

As for what it symbolized... well, all the stuff we've been talking about in this thread. It represented a pride in their "Southern heritage" which includes the regions they were from in the US, racism and all the things that rednecks today claim it means.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 whembly wrote:

So what's the solution.

All I'm reading is that, there's a problem.

We've had years of Desegregation programs.

Years of Affirmative Action programs.

Years of preferential college tuition/attendence programs.

And on, and on...

You say that we're a "racist country".

I see a President who's the first African American elected to our highest office.

Maybe it's because I see it as "glass half-full" and you're seeing these as "glass half-empty"?

And everyone was just so overjoyed at having a black president, look at everything he accomplished. Well he tried to accomplish stuff. He will go down in history as the most filibustered president ever. While those that shut down the government get re elected into office and run for president later.

There has been some improvement over the years, but there's still a long way to go before every american is equal.
If anyone here had the solution we'd be off to collect our noble peace prize by now. The steps that are needed to get us to a solution is:

1. Admit we still have a problem
2. Discus the problem
3. come up with solutions.

Again... what are the solutions? Specifically?

I can name a big one. Judicial/Incarceration reforms.

 Strombones wrote:

Take that hatred somewhere else man.

And people wonder why southerners feel the need to form a counter identity. Its because of statements like this.

So Southerners create a "racist, backwards thinking, and willfully ignorant" counter-identity?

Or do I have this counter-identity all wrong? Because the more I learn about the flag they're clinging to so desperately.... the more it don't look too good.

sirlynchmob wrote:


I see you left out conservatives in post. That is highly telling of you. If the progressive liberals are not a positive force, than are saying conservatives are? the disenfranchise minority voter crowd? the small government for big business, and big government for womens rights crowd? The let's look backwards for answers to a time when they could own slaves and women couldn't vote crowd?

conservatives usually view liberals in a negative light and used as a insult, I'd guess mainly because they keep showing conservatives why they're wrong. Liberal is the way to go forward and it's not a dirty word.

i left out quite a bit, you cant describe the condition of human politics in under a hundred words and be inclusive. Conservatism is not directly relevant to the issue, it is relevant to progrsive liberalism as it is its political anthithesis, but formally it has no real place in the progressive concensus.

It still has a symptomic presence and the manner of it now echoes that in Europe in the last decade. As progressivist dogma takes hold those with liberal credentials need do nothing, while those without must work extra hard to prove they are not bigots.
Case in point, its the Republican politicians who are falling over each other to remove Confed flags, or even in some cases (Misissippi) to call for a state flag to be redesigned removing confederate iconography. While Democrats are being the voice of reason. Democrats don't need to prove they arent white supremacists by
This echoes similar exhortations by the mid right in Europe during the main progressive swing before it was better understood. It also echoes the early stages of theocratic and similarly dogmatic states where those outside the church or party must be extra tough to prove themselves loyal to the creed.

There is something insidious about redesigning a culture to fit a short term dogmatic pressure. Cultures are built on their fashions and traditions, remove its fashions and it becomes stagnant, remove its traditions and becomes unstable. To fit a transient political pressure the south is on the verge of retconning over a century and a half of its culture and heritage. That is frankly alarming, and nothing good can come of it.

 whembly wrote:


I can name a big one. Judicial/Incarceration reforms.

Education reforms, and NOT "common core" I mean this system where, because inner city schools, predominately populated by minorities, that don't do well on testing metrics get less funding... because that makes so much sense.

Whembly, I've seen you do the "positive spin" trick many times. You even tried it earlier in this thread, where you tried to make a discussion about the racist meaning of the battle flag into one about Christian forgiveness. You're still trying to get away from the fact that we live in a racist country by trying to talk about speculative policies, nevermind that you are asking for specific solutions to a problem you seem awfully unwilling to acknowledge.

 whembly wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 whembly wrote:

So what's the solution.

All I'm reading is that, there's a problem.

We've had years of Desegregation programs.

Years of Affirmative Action programs.

Years of preferential college tuition/attendence programs.

And on, and on...

You say that we're a "racist country".

I see a President who's the first African American elected to our highest office.

Maybe it's because I see it as "glass half-full" and you're seeing these as "glass half-empty"?

And everyone was just so overjoyed at having a black president, look at everything he accomplished. Well he tried to accomplish stuff. He will go down in history as the most filibustered president ever. While those that shut down the government get re elected into office and run for president later.

There has been some improvement over the years, but there's still a long way to go before every american is equal.
If anyone here had the solution we'd be off to collect our noble peace prize by now. The steps that are needed to get us to a solution is:

1. Admit we still have a problem
2. Discus the problem
3. come up with solutions.

Again... what are the solutions? Specifically?

I can name a big one. Judicial/Incarceration reforms.

I mentioned that one earilier.

But, sure, allow me, one white guy to solve americas entire racial problem without consulting any other people. I'm sure my solution would be a big hit.
Stop being racists, Stop voting for republicans who disenfrancised voters. Don't vote for anyone who thinks mexicans coming into this country are all drug mules and rapists. Stop sticking up for cops who are clearly in the wrong.

Lastly, vote for this guy:
#‎GarrettJJoyce2016‬

Everyone spread the word and write him in.

 Orlanth wrote:
To fit a transient political pressure the south is on the verge of retconning over a century and a half of its culture and heritage. That is frankly alarming, and nothing good can come of it.

People aren't calling for a "retconning" of history, they are calling for the removal of one flag. That's hardly destroying a heritage.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Strombones wrote:

Take that hatred somewhere else man.

And people wonder why southerners feel the need to form a counter identity. Its because of statements like this.

So Southerners create a "racist, backwards thinking, and willfully ignorant" counter-identity?

Or do I have this counter-identity all wrong? Because the more I learn about the flag they're clinging to so desperately.... the more it don't look too good.

Yes. You have it wrong. People that identify as "southerners" do not appreciate being automatically labeled racist, backwards thinking and willfully ignorant for doing so.

Furthermore, many southerners agree that the battle flag is an antiquated symbol of racism used as an explicit insult to the civil rights movement when it was first flown over Columbia in 1961. But because this controversy exists is it ok for people to paint all southerners as...and I quote..."inbreed"?

 Manchu wrote:
Whembly, I've seen you do the "positive spin" trick many times. You even tried it earlier in this thread, where you tried to make a discussion about the racist meaning of the battle flag into one about Christian forgiveness. You're still trying to get away from the fact that we live in a racist country by trying to talk about speculative policies, nevermind that you are asking for specific solutions to a problem you seem awfully unwilling to acknowledge.

Okay. You got me.

I refused to believe that this is a racist country as a whole.

I'm not saying that racists from all walks of life don't exist... because, they do.

But the whole U.S. of A.?

I'm sorry, but your worldview is awfully pessimistic.

 Manchu wrote:
:

 Orlanth wrote:
You do, but do others?

What exactly do you mean by this question? Repeated here, along with the nasty idea that being considerate amounts to being guilty.

That was explained above.

 Manchu wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Overcoming our racism is not about feeling guilty; it's about being mindful and considerate and reflective.
- That is guilt right there. You have an expectation for sacrificial giving to build a broken society. You might not see this at first, but you must be reflective and considerate, must others? Often not. The burden is on you.

Who is "you" here?

You societally most definitely, you personally possibly based on whether your posts reflect your actual core persona.
If you believe what you wrote then the veiled guilt chain is there. How its there has explained, the fact that the need to be 'considerate' and 'mindful' is selective burden on some societal groups but not others. Others very clearly have fewer or no such expectation.
As for the brainwashing label that causes you discomfort, frankly its why you don't see the societal guilt for what it is.

Brainwashing is not what you might think it is. Noone is accusing you of being a stupid moron who will sell everything for an orange robe and a chance to serve guru. Brainwashing is why a culturally advanced nation state known for its contributions to philosophy and culture follow the Feurer, brainwashing also makes people join the witchhunt of racists while maintaining a monastic persistent self examination for racial consideration. Humans are fragile and subject to brainwashing. Progressivism is the main brainwash agenda right now, if this is anyway unclear look at how it is used by student mobs, or at theslow march to cultural disintegration in Sweden.

 Strombones wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Strombones wrote:

Take that hatred somewhere else man.

And people wonder why southerners feel the need to form a counter identity. Its because of statements like this.

So Southerners create a "racist, backwards thinking, and willfully ignorant" counter-identity?

Or do I have this counter-identity all wrong? Because the more I learn about the flag they're clinging to so desperately.... the more it don't look too good.

Yes. You have it wrong. People that identify as "southerners" do not appreciate being automatically labeled racist, backwards thinking and willfully ignorant for doing so.

Furthermore, many southerners agree that the battle flag is an antiquated symbol of racism used as an explicit insult to the civil rights movement when it was first flown over Columbia in 1961. But because this controversy exists is it ok for people to paint all southerners as...and I quote..."inbreed"?

I think what we have here, since you and I actually agree... is a case of the "vocal minority" By that same token, there are some conservatives and republicans who live in New England. And not everyone who lives in Oregon and washington is a stoner or a hippy.

For me personally, I hated the period of time that I lived in the South. Yeah, there were some "cool" things in Nashville, but on the whole? the place was terrible. But then, maybe I'm somewhat jaded because I actually lived in Clarksville

 whembly wrote:
I'm sorry, but your worldview is awfully pessimistic.

That doesn't make sense to me. It's not pessimistic to acknowledge the fact that racial prejudice is a reality in all of our minds. I'm not saying we are bound to act on those prejudices.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
To fit a transient political pressure the south is on the verge of retconning over a century and a half of its culture and heritage. That is frankly alarming, and nothing good can come of it.

People aren't calling for a "retconning" of history, they are calling for the removal of one flag. That's hardly destroying a heritage.

In one week politicians have removed flags from memorials and discussed at a high level to replacement of a state flag, which is a permanent change to a states culture as it strips a portion of the states history away. There have been multiple refusals of sale starving out a portion of the culture, and even revisionism by the removal to host historical works which depict the flag even as a secondary element. We aren't even in week two yet.

 Orlanth wrote:
If you believe what you wrote then the veiled guilt chain is there. How its there has explained, the fact that the need to be 'considerate' and 'mindful' is selective burden on some societal groups but not others.

Okay so to spell it out, you believe that I'm saying white people should be considerate to non-whites but that non-whites should not be considerate of whites? Or is it even further, that in your experience, you believe that non-whites are not considerate of whites?

 Orlanth wrote:

In one week politicians have removed flags from memorials and discussed at a high level to replacement of a state flag, which is a permanent change to a states culture as it strips a portion of the states history away. There have been multiple refusals of sale starving out a portion of the culture, and even revisionism by the removal to host historical works which depict the flag even as a secondary element. We aren't even in week two yet.

I'm sorry, but changing the state flag isn't changing the culture. How many people, on a daily basis think about their state flag? That number is probably very few.

Refusal of sale is also not destroying a culture. Those businesses are exercising their 1st Amendment rights to not "associate" with that kind of imagery (and yet, even as amazon has announced no more southern cross stuff, to try and find another user's claimed "Nazi Germany flag", I came across a Playstation 4 cover/controller covers of the nazi emblem, which was fairly sick in my mind)\


That last bit, you may have to reword, because I honestly don't know what you mean by "revisionism by the removal to host historical works which depict the flag even as a secondary element."

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Strombones wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Strombones wrote:

Take that hatred somewhere else man.

And people wonder why southerners feel the need to form a counter identity. Its because of statements like this.

So Southerners create a "racist, backwards thinking, and willfully ignorant" counter-identity?

Or do I have this counter-identity all wrong? Because the more I learn about the flag they're clinging to so desperately.... the more it don't look too good.

Yes. You have it wrong. People that identify as "southerners" do not appreciate being automatically labeled racist, backwards thinking and willfully ignorant for doing so.

Furthermore, many southerners agree that the battle flag is an antiquated symbol of racism used as an explicit insult to the civil rights movement when it was first flown over Columbia in 1961. But because this controversy exists is it ok for people to paint all southerners as...and I quote..."inbreed"?

I think what we have here, since you and I actually agree... is a case of the "vocal minority" By that same token, there are some conservatives and republicans who live in New England. And not everyone who lives in Oregon and washington is a stoner or a hippy.

For me personally, I hated the period of time that I lived in the South. Yeah, there were some "cool" things in Nashville, but on the whole? the place was terrible. But then, maybe I'm somewhat jaded because I actually lived in Clarksville

Fair enough. And you're right, the confederate flag is used by a very vocal group as an ambiguous symbol of misunderstood history and hatred. I just get very resentful when people casually display such hateful and dismissive attitudes towards all southerners, It creates a lot of resentment for me being called inbred and backward despite the fact that I, and many southerners like me, agree with the moderate consensus.

 Orlanth wrote:
Progressivism is the main brainwash agenda right now, if this is anyway unclear look at how it is used by student mobs, or at theslow march to cultural disintegration in Sweden.

There's certainly a cultural disintegration going on in Sweden; we're becoming more aware of the fact that we're not as good or not-racist as our self-image during the 1970's and 80's would have us believe. Our self-righteousness is being picked apart, piece by piece.

Of course, that's not what you meant at all, so I'm going to ask you: in what manner do you believe that there is a "cultural disintegration" going on in Sweden?

On another note, the current world order is inescapably one based on colonialism and imperialism. To refuse to accnowledge that, and to blame those who do for being the ignorant ones, is the true danger. Complaining about revisionism in a thread where you're aruging that slavery wasn't the driving force behind the American Civil War is so intellectually dishonest that I don't even know where to start.

 Strombones wrote:


Fair enough. And you're right, the confederate flag is used by a very vocal group as an ambiguous symbol of misunderstood history and hatred. I just get very resentful when people casually display such hateful and dismissive attitudes towards all southerners, It creates a lot of resentment for me being called inbred and backward despite the fact that I, and many southerners like me, agree with the moderate consensus.

Well, your location says "Not Arkansas" and "Not West Virginia" so you're good on the inbred part

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Strombones wrote:


Fair enough. And you're right, the confederate flag is used by a very vocal group as an ambiguous symbol of misunderstood history and hatred. I just get very resentful when people casually display such hateful and dismissive attitudes towards all southerners, It creates a lot of resentment for me being called inbred and backward despite the fact that I, and many southerners like me, agree with the moderate consensus.

Well, your location says "Not Arkansas" and "Not West Virginia" so you're good on the inbred part

I'm gonna go full on hypocrite and laugh at that

Why are people screaming about 'revisionism'? If anything, the only revisionism is concieving of the CSA's political goals as anything but starting a war to preserve crushing another race under the boot of the ubermensch, even as evidenced by every state involved and multiple leaders.

When many, many, many official statements made by Confederate Leaders themselves and Confederate Governments makes it extremely clear that everything they did was in favor of maintaining something that we consider objectively evil, then how is the use of the flag 'misunderstood' in any way?

Yes, this is a rather blunt way to put it. But this thread's spinning in circles, without any 'flag supporter' addressing those issues of what the primary sources said and intended. You cannot both say 'But it is tradition!' as a defense of an already morally indefensible tradition.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I'm sorry, but changing the state flag isn't changing the culture. How many people, on a daily basis think about their state flag? That number is probably very few.

Especially considering the fact that state flags change. Since 2001, the state of Georgia has changed their flag three times.

Especially when southern descendants of confederate soldiers, don't think it's appropriate anymore, (if it ever was) to celebrate that part of our history. I can honor my ancestor in better ways.

Has nothing to do with "white guilt" or liberal brainwashing..I think anyone knows me on these boards, knows that I'm pretty conservative.

It's pretty insulting to be accused of being brainwashed, for trying suggest that we right an injustice, that has been going on too long.

GG

 generalgrog wrote:
Especially when southern descendants of confederate soldiers, don't think it's appropriate anymore, (if it ever was) to celebrate that part of our history. I can honor my ancestor in better ways.

Has nothing to do with "white guilt" or liberal brainwashing..I think anyone knows me on these boards, knows that I'm pretty conservative.

It's pretty insulting to be accused of being brainwashed, for trying suggest that we right an injustice, that has been going on too long.

GG

And even with all that, I still haven't seen too many people stating outright "it should be banned forever!"

What I have seen:

It shouldn't be on a government building, excepting a museum or memorial. Old memorials constructed after the ACW should be left as is, there's no reason to spend the kind of money to "fix" an engraving or to reforge a metal plate, etc.