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 DarkLink wrote:
Sebster sounds so anti-Jewish he'd fit right in with 1930's Germany...

I doubt you're going to bother even considering that you're wrong, but criticizing Israel is not the same as criticizing Judaism. The demonym is Israeli, not Jew. This has to be the oldest, most commonly spouted bull-gak argument in the conflict's history, and you're still making it with a straight face.

 Bullockist wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


The "Palestinians", who themselves are a mythical people group with no identity or history beyond hating Israel, are not and will never be capable of having a stable government for several reasons.

The hell man?
The Palestinians have been there as long if not longer than the Jews. Remember the Caananites and their god Baal? (which hilariously just means lord) Yep, that's the forebears of Palestinians. They had the same religion as the other Phonecian types in the area who were trading as far as most of the mediterranean circa 900 bc. So whilst the Jews were wandering around being nomads, the Phonecians had cities with trading empires.

Mythical people my arse.

Just as a heads up the Palestinians you are referring to are also jewish History my friend, you should read it. Palestinian is a term given to people who lived in Palestine. Palestine is the name given to Israel AFTER the romans destroyed the country. It was a roman insult to the jews, referencing the Phillistines who the Jews had beaten in a previous war.

Anyone who lived in modern day Israel was called a Palestinian, which means that the tens of thousands of Jews living their are PALESTINIANS!

If your going to pull up Caananites being the forefathers of the Muslim Palestinians you must also point out that they are also Jewish as well. The only dividing line between Israeli's and Arabs is religion, not who was their first.

 Bullockist wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


The "Palestinians", who themselves are a mythical people group with no identity or history beyond hating Israel, are not and will never be capable of having a stable government for several reasons.

The hell man?
The Palestinians have been there as long if not longer than the Jews. Remember the Caananites and their god Baal? (which hilariously just means lord) Yep, that's the forebears of Palestinians. They had the same religion as the other Phonecian types in the area who were trading as far as most of the mediterranean circa 900 bc. So whilst the Jews were wandering around being nomads, the Phonecians had cities with trading empires.

Mythical people my arse.

The connection between "Palestinians" and Caananites is very, very weak. I challenge you to provide strong direct evidence that modern "Palestinians" are descended from Caananites any more so than anybody else in that region.


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Sebster sounds so anti-Jewish he'd fit right in with 1930's Germany...

I doubt you're going to bother even considering that you're wrong, but criticizing Israel is not the same as criticizing Judaism. The demonym is Israeli, not Jew. This has to be the oldest, most commonly spouted bull-gak argument in the conflict's history, and you're still making it with a straight face.

Antisemites often hide behind the names, "anti-Zionist" or "anti-Israel."

The fact is that nearly all Jews support the state of Israel (with a few notable exceptions), Israel is the only Jewish state in the world, and given the stereotypical, bigoted, and libelous claims of these antisemites (i.e., "anti-Zionists") it is clear that their main problem with Israel is that it's full of Jews. If they judged Israel by the same metric by which they judge the myriad Arab Muslim countries in the world, they would not be "anti-ZIonists" anymore.

Well feth. Gaza was never historically Jewish, never. The Phonecian influence in Gaza, Tyre, Acre, ect is huge. The Phonecians were there long before the Romans got there. INteresting fact, the Phonecians spread to Carthage...are you seeing where i am going with this?

Roman history in regard to Carthaginians could be regarded a duplicitous at best.Think about that, most roman historians wrote increadibly innacurate things about phonecians.Modern day Israel was called palestine? fething hilarious. The "jewish empire" lasted all of 300 years, the Caaananites had been there since before 900bc , with probably apart from the Egyptians the most sophisticated society around that area (yes that includes the Jewish nomads).Israel, as seperate from Judea was a tiny kingdom no one cared about and everyone pissed on.Jews didn't even include those from Judea as Jews , hence the whole Samaritan thing.Te Samaritans also had a seperate religion based around a holy place being different from the other Jews.This lead to a lot of discrimination.History? I don't know what you read, but it certainly doesn't include a history of the Carthaginians.

There is a theory of historical thought that on one of their nomadic journeys the jews absorbed a god from a neibouring tribe. Lord, Baal, Lord


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

The connection between "Palestinians" and Caananites is very, very weak. I challenge you to provide strong direct evidence that modern "Palestinians" are descended from Caananites any more so than anybody else in that region.

The fact that they had the same religion as the Phonecians and therefore the Carthaginians points to the fact they are the same culture. THe fact that Gaza was a major trade hub during Phonecian influence also points to this. IT was also big after that influence had faded.

The fact is that nearly all Jews support the state of Israel (with a few notable exceptions), Israel is the only Jewish state in the world, and given the stereotypical, bigoted, and libelous claims of these antisemites (i.e., "anti-Zionists") it is clear that their main problem with Israel is that it's full of Jews. If they judged Israel by the same metric by which they judge the myriad Arab Muslim countries in the world, they would not be "anti-ZIonists" anymore.

I talk to a Jewish guy regularly who had moved to Israel in the 80s, I asked his opinion of the state, he said "it is so corrupt" and I could hear the dissalusionment in his voice.His opinion of LIkud was actually worse than mine and he laughed when i asked him of a likud politicians statement in regard to sudanese/african immigrantshttp://www.timesofisrael.com/most-israeli-jews-agree-africans-are-a-cancer/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">. http://www.timesofisrael.com/most-israeli-jews-agree-africans-are-a-cancer/
He laughed and said with pain, it gets much worse.
Jews existed for a long time without the Israeli state and still do. The next suburb from me has an extremely high number of South African Jews and where are they from? South Africa , just South Africa, some of them even have wires up to tell them where they can walk on the Sabbath, but no not Israeli, still South African.
Nearly all Jews? Anecdotal but 90% of the guys I meet don't. I do sometimes ,open up the conversation with "do I look Jewish?" coz about half of the Lebanese guys I meet ask me if I am.this means we have an open conversation without any kind of politically correct intrusion.I like this kind of discussion as it is open and I hear more real opinions than otherwise. (if anyone wants to give a gak about my supposed ancestry- I had meditterainian spots as a kid, whilst my grandmother supposedly had an affair with a jewish guy, I also in the previous generation had a great grandma who fethed a sailor. I think i'm just medditerranean. Doesn't stop me from being described as jewish 2 times a week.. Jews, arabs, phonecians , persians....who gives a gak......unless your forcing someone to live in a ghetto.

@Ghazkuul, please just stop. I don't agree with sebster on a number of things on this subject (we've hashed it out before), but your arguing is practically a caricature it's so devoid of logic or reasoned fact.

NuggztheNinja wrote:The fact is that nearly all Jews support the state of Israel (with a few notable exceptions),

Absolute rubbish. Have you never heard the saying, 'Three Jews in a room equals four opinions'?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


The "Palestinians", who themselves are a mythical people group with no identity or history beyond hating Israel, are not and will never be capable of having a stable government for several reasons.

The hell man?
The Palestinians have been there as long if not longer than the Jews. Remember the Caananites and their god Baal? (which hilariously just means lord) Yep, that's the forebears of Palestinians. They had the same religion as the other Phonecian types in the area who were trading as far as most of the mediterranean circa 900 bc. So whilst the Jews were wandering around being nomads, the Phonecians had cities with trading empires.

Mythical people my arse.

The connection between "Palestinians" and Caananites is very, very weak. I challenge you to provide strong direct evidence that modern "Palestinians" are descended from Caananites any more so than anybody else in that region.

The Palestinians have continuously lived in the area since ancient times. They are probably not only descended from the ancient Philistines, but also from the ancient Isrealites and all other peoples that have lived in the area.
Ancestry is not so clear as it is often presented. Because of the time involved (and thus the sheer amount of ancestors you have) and different peoples interacting with each other, people tend to end up with ancestors from pretty much every group that ever lived in every area where those groups lived. So the truth is that both modern Palestines and Isrealis have exactly the same ancient ancestors. The difference is in the more recent ones. The Palestinians are descended from the Arabs and pretty much every other group that lived in the area since ancient times, whereas most Isrealis have European or North African ancestry.
Also, there is nothing mythical about Phoenecians.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Sebster sounds so anti-Jewish he'd fit right in with 1930's Germany...

I doubt you're going to bother even considering that you're wrong, but criticizing Israel is not the same as criticizing Judaism. The demonym is Israeli, not Jew. This has to be the oldest, most commonly spouted bull-gak argument in the conflict's history, and you're still making it with a straight face.

Antisemites often hide behind the names, "anti-Zionist" or "anti-Israel."

The fact is that nearly all Jews support the state of Israel (with a few notable exceptions), Israel is the only Jewish state in the world, and given the stereotypical, bigoted, and libelous claims of these antisemites (i.e., "anti-Zionists") it is clear that their main problem with Israel is that it's full of Jews. If they judged Israel by the same metric by which they judge the myriad Arab Muslim countries in the world, they would not be "anti-ZIonists" anymore.

If people can't seperate semites (an ethnic group) from Zionism (a political movement) they have a serious problem. There is a huge difference between anti-semites and anti-Zionists, and comparing them is pretty ridiculous given that many Jews themselves are anti-Zionists.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Sebster sounds so anti-Jewish he'd fit right in with 1930's Germany...

I doubt you're going to bother even considering that you're wrong, but criticizing Israel is not the same as criticizing Judaism. The demonym is Israeli, not Jew. This has to be the oldest, most commonly spouted bull-gak argument in the conflict's history, and you're still making it with a straight face.

And if all he was saying was 'I don't like Israel's aggressive defense policies', then I'd agree with you. Nor am I saying that Israel has never done anything wrong, just that some of the anti-israel comments in this thread are profoundly innane.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The Palestinians have continuously lived in the area since ancient times. They are probably not only descended from the ancient Philistines, but also from the ancient Isrealites and all other peoples that have lived in the area.
Ancestry is not so clear as it is often presented. Because of the time involved (and thus the sheer amount of ancestors you have) and different peoples interacting with each other, people tend to end up with ancestors from pretty much every group that ever lived in every area where those groups lived. So the truth is that both modern Palestines and Isrealis have exactly the same ancient ancestors. The difference is in the more recent ones. The Palestinians are descended from the Arabs and pretty much every other group that lived in the area since ancient times, whereas most Isrealis have European or North African ancestry.
Also, there is nothing mythical about Phoenecians.

If people can't seperate semites (an ethnic group) from Zionism (a political movement) they have a serious problem. There is a huge difference between anti-semites and anti-Zionists, and comparing them is pretty ridiculous given that many Jews themselves are anti-Zionists.

The difference between antisemites and anti-Zionists is that the first group is open about their hatred and bias against Jews, whereas the second group attempts to hide it under the veil of political beliefs. It is possible to be critical of Israel without opposing Zionism. Many Jews of critical of Israel. All Israelis are critical of some of Israel's policies, just as all Americans are critical of some US political policies. But, they are not anti-American...the equivalent of an anti-American is someone who believes that the United States should not exist. Are you really going to tell me that someone who believes that the ~7 million Jews in Israel should be murdered or expelled is NOT an antisemite?

And again, please read my response more carefully - I challenged Bullockist to provide strong evidence that "Palestinians" are more related to the Caananites than anyone else in that region. Intermarriage, a nomadic lifestyle, all of those things make such a thing exceptionally difficult. They can identify as whatever they want, but they still are no different than Syrians and Jordanians.

 Ketara wrote:
@Ghazkuul, please just stop. I don't agree with sebster on a number of things on this subject (we've hashed it out before), but your arguing is practically a caricature it's so devoid of logic or reasoned fact.

NuggztheNinja wrote:The fact is that nearly all Jews support the state of Israel (with a few notable exceptions),

Absolute rubbish. Have you never heard the saying, 'Three Jews in a room equals four opinions'?

Your right Ketara, I should stop pointing out facts that disagree with your opinions. my bad.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
@Ghazkuul, please just stop. I don't agree with sebster on a number of things on this subject (we've hashed it out before), but your arguing is practically a caricature it's so devoid of logic or reasoned fact.

Your right Ketara, I should stop pointing out facts that disagree with your opinions. my bad.

You don't even know what my opinions are, and yet you're rushing to say that you have facts disagreeing with them?

And you wonder why I advise you to stop.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The Palestinians have continuously lived in the area since ancient times. They are probably not only descended from the ancient Philistines, but also from the ancient Isrealites and all other peoples that have lived in the area.
Ancestry is not so clear as it is often presented. Because of the time involved (and thus the sheer amount of ancestors you have) and different peoples interacting with each other, people tend to end up with ancestors from pretty much every group that ever lived in every area where those groups lived. So the truth is that both modern Palestines and Isrealis have exactly the same ancient ancestors. The difference is in the more recent ones. The Palestinians are descended from the Arabs and pretty much every other group that lived in the area since ancient times, whereas most Isrealis have European or North African ancestry.
Also, there is nothing mythical about Phoenecians.

If people can't seperate semites (an ethnic group) from Zionism (a political movement) they have a serious problem. There is a huge difference between anti-semites and anti-Zionists, and comparing them is pretty ridiculous given that many Jews themselves are anti-Zionists.

The difference between antisemites and anti-Zionists is that the first group is open about their hatred and bias against Jews, whereas the second group attempts to hide it under the veil of political beliefs. It is possible to be critical of Israel without opposing Zionism. Many Jews of critical of Israel. All Israelis are critical of some of Israel's policies, just as all Americans are critical of some US political policies. But, they are not anti-American...the equivalent of an anti-American is someone who believes that the United States should not exist. Are you really going to tell me that someone who believes that the ~7 million Jews in Israel should be murdered or expelled is NOT an antisemite?

And again, please read my response more carefully - I challenged Bullockist to provide strong evidence that "Palestinians" are more related to the Caananites than anyone else in that region. Intermarriage, a nomadic lifestyle, all of those things make such a thing exceptionally difficult. They can identify as whatever they want, but they still are no different than Syrians and Jordanians.

Just as it is possible to be critical of Isreal without hating Jews, it is also very much possible to be critical of Zionism and not hate Jews (in fact, many Jews that have stayed behind here in Europe are anti-Zionists). Jew, Israeli and Zionist are three seperate things and it is possible to hate one but not the other. There is probably racists hiding behind anti-Zionism, but that does not mean all anti-Zionists are also antisemites. Someone who wants all Jews in Israel expelled would be an anti-semite, someone who is against the Isreali government would be anti-Israeli (but not neccessarily anti-semite), while someone who is against Israel being a 'Jewish state' would be anti-Zionist (but again not neccessarily anti-semite).
Again, equating anti-Zionism with antisemitism is stupid.
Just take a look at the Jewish Anti-Zionist movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Jewish_Anti-Zionist_Network, Anti-Zionism of Orthodox Jews who believe there should not exist a Jewish state before the Messiah arrives or Soviet anti-Zionism. There is plenty of not-racist criticism of Zionism

And yes, proving that Palestinians are more related to ancient Caananites or Isrealites than Syrians are is probably impossible, altough I don't know much about genetics. But in any case, the truth about ancestry doesn't matter anything. All that matters is culture and identity. If modern Palestinians identify as descendents of the ancient Caananites, than they are. Ethnicity is after all a cultural, artificial thing.

 Ketara wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
@Ghazkuul, please just stop. I don't agree with sebster on a number of things on this subject (we've hashed it out before), but your arguing is practically a caricature it's so devoid of logic or reasoned fact.

Your right Ketara, I should stop pointing out facts that disagree with your opinions. my bad.

You don't even know what my opinions are, and yet you're rushing to say that you have facts disagreeing with them?

And you wonder why I advise you to stop.

You advise me to stop and say that my posts are "Caricature" and "Devoid of Logic or reasoned fact" and yet my posts are fact filled and accurate. So I interpreted that to mean you disagreed with the facts and your opinion differed from the one I had validated with the above posted facts. So what your really saying is, you have no idea how to argue against me and instead are going to spam and use random posts aimed at misdirection. Keep it up.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Just as it is possible to be critical of Isreal without hating Jews, it is also very much possible to be critical of Zionism and not hate Jews (in fact, many Jews that have stayed behind here in Europe are anti-Zionists). Jew, Israeli and Zionist are three seperate things and it is possible to hate one but not the other. There is probably racists hiding behind anti-Zionism, but that does not mean all anti-Zionists are also antisemites. Someone who wants all Jews in Israel expelled would be an anti-semite, someone who is against the Isreali government would be anti-Israeli (but not neccessarily anti-semite), while someone who is against Israel being a 'Jewish state' would be anti-Zionist (but again not neccessarily anti-semite).
Again, equating anti-Zionism with antisemitism is stupid.
Just take a look at the Jewish Anti-Zionist movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Jewish_Anti-Zionist_Network, Anti-Zionism of Orthodox Jews who believe there should not exist a Jewish state before the Messiah arrives or Soviet anti-Zionism. There is plenty of not-racist criticism of Zionism

And yes, proving that Palestinians are more related to ancient Caananites or Isrealites than Syrians are is probably impossible, altough I don't know much about genetics. But in any case, the truth about ancestry doesn't matter anything. All that matters is culture and identity. If modern Palestinians identify as descendents of the ancient Caananites, than they are. Ethnicity is after all a cultural, artificial thing.

There are a few outspoken fringe nutcase groups, as I have already acknowledged, but they are a very small minority. Do you have any information at all on their numbers? Jews who identify as "anti-Zionists" are very few and far between.

And when you look at what the opposite of "Israel being a Jewish state" really means, it means that it would become yet another Arab Muslim state. What Arab Muslim states have Jewish citizens that aren't routinely murdered and terrorized? Let's be honest about what they're really saying here - that "Anti-Zionists" have more of a problem with Jews having their own country, than with Jews being murdered and terrorized. Again, how is that anything but antisemitism?

Sharia law is kind of Antisematism in and of itself :-P

 Ghazkuul wrote:

You advise me to stop and say that my posts are "Caricature" and "Devoid of Logic or reasoned fact" and yet my posts are fact filled and accurate.

So very fact filled.....

Ghazkuul wrote:im not saying they are all brainwashed

Implying that some members of the UN are 'brainwashed'. I assume this is by some fairly awesome pro-Arab Space-Nazi Brainwashing beam technique, right? Or members of the UN being kidnapped by Hamas, and drugged/indoctrinated in a KGB style operation?

The US isn't what keeps Israel as a country, at this point its the US that keeps Israel from taking over the rest of the Arab peninsula.

Yes. Because Israel wants to take over that much territory, but the secret puppetmasters in the US that control Israel prevent them from doing so. C


That's just from the first page. I could go on, but judging by how quickly you leapt to the attack just now, I don't doubt for a second that it would be a wasted effort.

 Ketara wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

You advise me to stop and say that my posts are "Caricature" and "Devoid of Logic or reasoned fact" and yet my posts are fact filled and accurate.

So very fact filled.....

Ghazkuul wrote:im not saying they are all brainwashed

Implying that some members of the UN are 'brainwashed'. I assume this is by some fairly awesome pro-Arab Space-Nazi Brainwashing beam technique, right? Or members of the UN being kidnapped by Hamas, and drugged/indoctrinated in a KGB style operation?

The US isn't what keeps Israel as a country, at this point its the US that keeps Israel from taking over the rest of the Arab peninsula.

Yes. Because Israel wants to take over that much territory, but the secret puppetmasters in the US that control Israel prevent them from doing so. C


That's just from the first page. I could go on, but judging by how quickly you leapt to the attack just now, I don't doubt for a second that it would be a wasted effort.

Wow way to pull things out of context. Are you a writer at CNN? Anyway, i post solid facts about Israel and the Palestinian conflicts and you post conspiracy theories, clearly your not suited to an intellectual debate so please go find a different target to troll.

Side note: Brainwashing also implies propaganda, something you should be intimately familiar with since you have such a trollish history.

 Ketara wrote:

Ghazkuul wrote:im not saying they are all brainwashed

Implying that some members of the UN are 'brainwashed'. I assume this is by some fairly awesome pro-Arab Space-Nazi Brainwashing beam technique, right? Or members of the UN being kidnapped by Hamas, and drugged/indoctrinated in a KGB style operation?

What? No, no, no, no. Mossad's the ones brainwashing them and using those bad eggs to drum up sympathy for Israel. ...Of course learned from interrogating all those Argentinian Space-Nazis.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Wow way to pull things out of context.

Of course they've been pulled out of context, they're single quotes from three pages back. They couldn't help but be anything else without reposting those three pages of discussion. This does not mean that the statements do not stand or fall on their own merits (or lack thereof).

I'd welcome your highly detailed explanation as to how those two statements mean something other than what they seem to quite clearly say if you feel it is unfair. If you can take a statement that

'The US isn't what keeps Israel as a country, at this point its the US that keeps Israel from taking over the rest of the Arab peninsula'

and make it about something other than a) Israel wanting to take over the Middle-East (otherwise it wouldn't need restraining), or b) the US exercising the power to stop it from doing so (and thus being secretly in control of Israel), please go ahead. It should be interesting to read.

Anyway, i post solid facts about Israel and the Palestinian conflicts and you post conspiracy theories,

I posted your own statements. If those qualify as conspiracy theories, that's hardly my fault.

clearly your not suited to an intellectual debate so please go find a different target to troll.

Side note: Brainwashing also implies propaganda, something you should be intimately familiar with since you have such a trollish history.

As someone who holds what might occasionally be called 'intellectual debates' at a professional level, I daresay I have some small capacity in that direction (that or I've luckily evaded detection thus far by the anti-intellectual police). A note though; point blank calling other people 'trolls' is usually considered a violation of Rule #1.

Yes. Because Israel wants to take over that much territory, but the secret puppetmasters in the US that control Israel prevent them from doing so

Generally I would consider that to be a conspiracy theory. The US aren't secret "puppet masters" but are instead a close ally that help Israel.

As far as the US keeping Israel from taking over the Arabian peninsula, you need look no farther then Desert Storm. Iraq fired SCUD missiles into Israel, hoping to make Israel attack Iraq which Saddam Hussein hoped would bring other Arab countries into his war with the US. The US basically told Israel to not retaliate and low and behold, Israel listened. You could also use the example of the 6 day war where Henry Kissinger successfully urged the Israeli's to NOT take over Cairo or Damascus. Or you could use the example of the Yom Kippur War where by use of economic aid and resupply of essential military hardware, the United States kept Israel from starting a larger area conflict with Syria by destroying Damascus or by invading Cairo, which the Israeli's were yet again capable of. Would you like more examples of the United States using economics and political leverage to stop Israel from seizing more Arab territory?

Also It isn't a violation of Rule #1 if you call someone a troll if they are in fact trolling. That would be the same as someone calling me a Marine and me then being offended by it. If you pull quotes out of context, and misconstrue those quotes to make someone look bad you are trolling them. Either way if you really are experienced at debating in an intellectual setting please provide me with proof beyond propaganda and hearsay that Israeli is guilty of the War crimes listed in the UN document.

Ah the Israelis don't want to own the Middle East. That'd be wildly impractical. The land they have at the moment is either for settlement or as a buffer zone. Amalgamating a ton of people, notably who are non-Jews, would just leave to a nightmare for the Israelis.

Oh, and nor are the Israelis America's lapdogs as you put it. Sure they listen to the US, but there's a lot of pragmatism. The US tells the Israelis don't go bomb that airbase because they've just signed a treaty with X country. The Israelis say screw that they're within X distance of Israel and making threats. The whole thing's a minefield of politics, though the Israelis prefer to err on the side of caution most of the time (caution not meaning violence, rather it can mean a lack of as well considering that they could go about launching nukes at everyone if they felt like that, but well that'd be just silly now wouldn't it).

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Yes. Because Israel wants to take over that much territory, but the secret puppetmasters in the US that control Israel prevent them from doing so

Generally I would consider that to be a conspiracy theory. The US aren't secret "puppet masters" but are instead a close ally that help Israel.

Correct. But the US does not prevent Israel from doing what it wants, anymoreso than France does Britain. Being an ally and having influence is different to controlling. And if we're talking about the US restraining a supposed Israeli desire to control the Arabian Peninsula, we're talking about control.

As far as the US keeping Israel from taking over the Arabian peninsula, you need look no farther then Desert Storm.

The Arabian Peninsula which includes, Yemen, Qatar, Oman, and many others, right?

Iraq fired SCUD missiles into Israel, hoping to make Israel attack Iraq which Saddam Hussein hoped would bring other Arab countries into his war with the US. The US basically told Israel to not retaliate and low and behold, Israel listened.

No. They advised Israel not to respond. Israel is a sovereign nation, and makes its own decisions.

You could also use the example of the 6 day war where Henry Kissinger successfully urged the Israeli's to NOT take over Cairo or Damascus. Or you could use the example of the Yom Kippur War where by use of economic aid and resupply of essential military hardware, the United States kept Israel from starting a larger area conflict with Syria by destroying Damascus or by invading Cairo, which the Israeli's were yet again capable of. Would you like more examples of the United States using economics and political leverage to stop Israel from seizing more Arab territory?

Firstly, you've yet to demonstrate that Israel wants to seize Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the UAE, and many others, which is a fairly large(if not fatal) error to your argument! And secondly, in your original statement, you appeared to make no verbal distinction between controlling another nation and influencing it.

Hence my comments on the matter.

Also It isn't a violation of Rule #1 if you call someone a troll if they are in fact trolling.

Yes it is, actually. If you think someone is trolling, you hit the little red triangle, and a general mod takes a look. Calling someone a troll has one of two effects

a) starting a fight on whether or not the other person is a troll, and
b) taking the thread off-topic.

Not to mention that if the person (like myself ) isn't trolling, but merely expressing an opinion, it's an insult (and thus in violation of rule #1).

Either way if you really are experienced at debating in an intellectual setting please provide me with proof beyond propaganda and hearsay that Israeli is guilty of the War crimes listed in the UN document.

I never said they were or were not guilty, but rather just pointed out some of your more ludicrous statements.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Ah the Israelis don't want to own the Middle East. That'd be wildly impractical. The land they have at the moment is either for settlement or as a buffer zone. Amalgamating a ton of people, notably who are non-Jews, would just leave to a nightmare for the Israelis.

Oh, and nor are the Israelis America's lapdogs as you put it. Sure they listen to the US, but there's a lot of pragmatism. The US tells the Israelis don't go bomb that airbase because they've just signed a treaty with X country. The Israelis say screw that they're within X distance of Israel and making threats. The whole thing's a minefield of politics, though the Israelis prefer to err on the side of caution most of the time (caution not meaning violence, rather it can mean a lack of as well considering that they could go about launching nukes at everyone if they felt like that, but well that'd be just silly now wouldn't it).

True, I used a bit to much of an exaggeration when I said the US keeps Israel from taking over the Arabian peninsula. However, the Israeli's have had intentions several times on taking a country's capital away from them to use as a bargaining chip for peace. Also I would never say that Israel is America's lap Dog. They are a loyal ally and when I say America keeps them from certain actions its through diplomacy and economics as well as military supplies not so much Israel doing whatever the US tells them to do just because.

At the end of the day though, the UN is exceedingly biased against the Israeli's and almost every UN meeting about the middle east has at least one country demanding to have Israel vilified at some point.

 DarkLink wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Sebster sounds so anti-Jewish he'd fit right in with 1930's Germany...

I doubt you're going to bother even considering that you're wrong, but criticizing Israel is not the same as criticizing Judaism. The demonym is Israeli, not Jew. This has to be the oldest, most commonly spouted bull-gak argument in the conflict's history, and you're still making it with a straight face.

And if all he was saying was 'I don't like Israel's aggressive defense policies', then I'd agree with you. Nor am I saying that Israel has never done anything wrong, just that some of the anti-israel comments in this thread are profoundly innane.

Such as?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
If your going to pull up Caananites being the forefathers of the Muslim Palestinians you must also point out that they are also Jewish as well. The only dividing line between Israeli's and Arabs is religion, not who was their first.

Emphasis mine. Just to be clear, the term Arab doesn't have a specific religious connotation - it's primarily a linguistic group. There are other cultural and ethnic factors involved, but being a native speaker of Arabic is the primary indicator. Arab does not equal Muslim. And there are a lot of Muslims who are not Arabs. There are Arab Christians and Druze, as well as Jews, and Israeli citizens who are Arabs. Some within these groups might not self-identify as "Arab" specifically (but rather just Christian, or Jewish, or by nationality, or as an "Arabic-speaking Christian" or "Arabic-speaking Jew") but the bottom line is that while Arab identity and who does and doesn't identify as Arab can be somewhat complicated, Arab is not a religious group and we shouldn't be using it as such.

 Hordini wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
If your going to pull up Caananites being the forefathers of the Muslim Palestinians you must also point out that they are also Jewish as well. The only dividing line between Israeli's and Arabs is religion, not who was their first.

Emphasis mine. Just to be clear, the term Arab doesn't have a specific religious connotation - it's primarily a linguistic group. There are other cultural and ethnic factors involved, but being a native speaker of Arabic is the primary indicator. Arab does not equal Muslim. And there are a lot of Muslims who are not Arabs. There are Arab Christians and Druze, as well as Jews, and Israeli citizens who are Arabs. Some within these groups might not self-identify as "Arab" specifically (but rather just Christian, or Jewish, or by nationality, or as an "Arabic-speaking Christian" or "Arabic-speaking Jew") but the bottom line is that while Arab identity and who does and doesn't identify as Arab can be somewhat complicated, Arab is not a religious group and we shouldn't be using it as such.

I'll change the word arab to Arab Muslim or just plain Muslim, it doesn't change the points made

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
If your going to pull up Caananites being the forefathers of the Muslim Palestinians you must also point out that they are also Jewish as well. The only dividing line between Israeli's and Arabs is religion, not who was their first.

Emphasis mine. Just to be clear, the term Arab doesn't have a specific religious connotation - it's primarily a linguistic group. There are other cultural and ethnic factors involved, but being a native speaker of Arabic is the primary indicator. Arab does not equal Muslim. And there are a lot of Muslims who are not Arabs. There are Arab Christians and Druze, as well as Jews, and Israeli citizens who are Arabs. Some within these groups might not self-identify as "Arab" specifically (but rather just Christian, or Jewish, or by nationality, or as an "Arabic-speaking Christian" or "Arabic-speaking Jew") but the bottom line is that while Arab identity and who does and doesn't identify as Arab can be somewhat complicated, Arab is not a religious group and we shouldn't be using it as such.

I'll change the word arab to Arab Muslim or just plain Muslim, it doesn't change the points made

Oh, that's fine, I understood what you meant and I wasn't taking issue with that specifically, in the sense that the problem is, at its root, a religious issue. I'm just trying to encouraging the use of informed language.

At the end of the day, the impression I’m really left with from threads like this is how simplistic and emotive the issue is treated outside of Israel and & Palestine. The people I’ve spoken to and the interviews I’ve read from people who actually have a stake in the game, both Israelis and Palestinians, well there’s certainly emotion there but it’s complex, and around that emotion is a nuanced and sophisticated understanding of the issue. There’s certainly a wide range of opinions on the actions of both Israel & Palestine, and I haven’t necessarily agreed with the conclusions given, in each case I’ve learned a lot, and come away respecting the amount of thought each person had put in to the issue.

But then you read a thread like this, and it’s actually just kind of sad. People proclaiming all kinds of nonsense, completely fact free opinions, proposing utterly ridiculous solutions. And in amongst all that you get more accusations of bias than you see when Israelis and Palestinians discuss the issue. It’s extraordinary.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Antisemites often hide behind the names, "anti-Zionist" or "anti-Israel."

They do. It is a harmful and dangerous trick played by anti-semites. Calling it out when it actually happens is essential, because anti-semitism needs to be countered as hard today as ever, especially with the rise of extremist Islam.

But that's why it's so dangerous for people to manipulate the accusation, to use it merely for political purposes, as a ploy to quieten people who are only criticising Israeli policy, or simply saying Palestinians deserve better than they have. Every time an accusation of anti-semitism is used disingenuously, it means later, genuine accusations are less likely to be properly heard. And that's dangerous.

 DarkLink wrote:
And if all he was saying was 'I don't like Israel's aggressive defense policies', then I'd agree with you. Nor am I saying that Israel has never done anything wrong, just that some of the anti-israel comments in this thread are profoundly innane.

Quote them, fething please quote them. Go find this 'inane' anti-Israel stuff, and quote it back to us. Because I can't speak for any other poster, but all I've said is that Palestinians deserve to belong to a nation, and for practical reasons that can't be part of Israel. Apparently that's equal to Hitler... so I'd dearly fething love for you to find something as inane as that among the Palestinian arguments.

I'll say it: I have nothing against Judaism, but detest Israel.

Note: not really a fan of Hamas et al, but they at least are honest about what they are. The Israelis get all self righteuos about how they're defending their homeland from the corruption of Palestinian terrorists.

Or how they have a divine mandate to seize additional living room from the subhumans to the east.

One of these days, I should really post videos of the Knesset dubbed in German. I'd post video of Hitler over it, and see if people can spot the real Hitler.speeches.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I'll say it: I have nothing against Judaism, but detest Israel.

Note: not really a fan of Hamas et al, but they at least are honest about what they are. The Israelis get all self righteuos about how they're defending their homeland from the corruption of Palestinian terrorists.

Or how they have a divine mandate to seize additional living room from the subhumans to the east.

One of these days, I should really post videos of the Knesset dubbed in German. I'd post video of Hitler over it, and see if people can spot the real Hitler.speeches.

'

This is probably one of the most offensive things Ive seen posted. Please try not to compare Israeli's to Nazi's and hitler if you could.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I'll say it: I have nothing against Judaism, but detest Israel.

Note: not really a fan of Hamas et al, but they at least are honest about what they are. The Israelis get all self righteuos about how they're defending their homeland from the corruption of Palestinian terrorists.

Or how they have a divine mandate to seize additional living room from the subhumans to the east.

One of these days, I should really post videos of the Knesset dubbed in German. I'd post video of Hitler over it, and see if people can spot the real Hitler.speeches.

I've seen some absolutely idiotic things posted on this forum, but you win the prize.



Welcome to ignore. I'll be missing nothing of importance.