Dark Angels Tactics 2015

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**jokerkd**

Devs in drop pods is not a good idea. Even with grav, 12 shots will net you 2 hits on average, then any half decent player will focus fire on them before they can shoot 20 at bs4

**tydrace**

jokerkd wrote:
Devs in drop pods is not a good idea. Even with grav, 12 shots will net you 2 hits on average, then any half decent player will focus fire on them before they can shoot 20 at bs4

Why only 2 hits? Since it's a Salvo weapon and not a Heavy don't you shoot at full BS? Might be I'm wrong on this, though, let me know.

**DirtyDeeds**

You do shoot at full bs, but you shoot less shots and at half range.

**tydrace**

DirtyDeeds wrote:
You do shoot at full bs, but you shoot less shots and at half range.

Yeah, the 12" can hurt, but still, if you're landing with a drop pod and you have your movement out of said drop pod you can get in range. Which is still 12 shots, of which probably 8 will hit, and then with re-rolls To Wound because of the Grav-Amp.

**bullyboy**

my plan is to simply have a squad of 5 devs with 2 grav cannons in a rhino. (maybe 2 sqds). The grav cannon is so expensive that it paints a huge "kill me" target on it's back, and marines are easy to kill. 2 can fire out of a rhino hatch and the rhino is a better ablative than 2 more marines (roughly same cost). This works even better in a battle company where the rhino is free.

**BrotherGecko**

I'm thinking for right now 1 demi company.

Trying to come up with a good load out for the 5 devs and 5 assault.

I'm also trying to decide if I should use razorbacks or drop pods for either of them.

**jakejackjake**

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
jokerkd wrote:
He plays ravenwing and still doesn't think it's good lol

I'm not saying 2+ rerollable jinks aren't good, they're bad for the game in general.

This is definitely true. The Imperium should be sweeping tournaments soon with their broken combos

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Desrok1 wrote:
Want to know why re-roll jinx are not that good, its because it just makes the ravenwing better, against lists it was already beating, Tua, eldar, cent-start, libby enclave, flyrant spam, hell drakes, demons, all the list ravenwing was bad against, they are still bad against. 2 up re-rolls does not help you against any sort of ignore cover, which most armies will have. Ravenwing are still weak in close combat, and still have no way to deal with flyers.

So Ravenwing still stomp a good chunk of lists, but still have severely bad match ups. Which is the problem. Also, not sure why you love to jinx so much, the ravenwings a shooting army, if your jinxing, next turn your not doing anything.

So my point still stands, our flyers are still not table worthy. Sammy is still a tax, they still lose to many of the other codexs out there. They no longer have objective secure. Which is one of the biggest nerfs, We live in an era of maelstrom! Objectives win games, not kill points, not number of models still alive, and as it stands ravenwing can't contest anything.

I won't touch on the deathwing, as i still feel there unplayable in any competitive way. Not to mention you have to take green wing to field them, which wooo, I can't even run a solo death wing army anymore YAY!

Ravenwing as far as I am concerned is meh, at this point. It will do ok against list that can't touch there weakness, close combat, ignore cover, flyers, and mass objective secure.

Demi-company is still the best, free drop pods, all objective secure, sooooo, I guess we are a vanilla space marine codex.

I play at a very competitive game store, so I see lists that place nationally, and I have played against them, so I can say with a good amount of confidence, solo-ravenwing armies are still not where they need to be to be good. They only way I have seen some potential is ravenwing with allies, like the libby conclave, on bikes, or running like thunderwolf cav.

But hey if you like the codex good for you, it for you to enjoy, just my opinion on how this codex feel way short of expectations.

Ravenwing weren't beating any of those lists. And most armies may have some ignore cover. Like a a way to get a couple hits per turn that way but that's it. Ignores cover is actually rare. Deathwing sucks because terminators suck.

At my hobby store a group of us look at the top lists and then run them against each other. That flying demons/ ork list that won recently? I just ran that. I understand completely what you are saying but ravenwing can definitely win alone and if you aren't allying your imperial army you are not optimizing your lists usually.

I'd go for minned out gladius/ lion's blade with ravenwing detachment as well. I can see a lot of win here

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrotherGecko wrote:
I'm thinking for right now 1 demi company.

Trying to come up with a good load out for the 5 devs and 5 assault.

I'm also trying to decide if I should use razorbacks or drop pods for either of them.

Drop pod if you use grav on cents otherwise razorbacks with be a more competivive choice. More obsec units that can move is better

**zerosignal**

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
(snip)

Wraiths are common but Necrons have no way of negating psychic powers aside from allying a Culexus, so the Ravenstar beats up on DLord+Wraiths and Orikan + Lychguard pretty hard. Obviously Lychguard rerolling 1s is a hard beast to kill, but I believe the Command Squad has sufficient weight of fire + close combat attacks to put them down. With Interromancy you can possibly get up to 6 attacks on the charge including HoW, roughly 60+ saves with Preferred enemy and prescience re-rolls.

Necrons also have very limited access to Ignores Cover so the rest of the army that isn't close combat does zip in terms of damage output (already low in Decurion.)

Eldar also have huge problems against unless they tailor, having to roll Perfect Timing.

I've been thinking a lot about this, as my housie is dusting off his RW... and I have 'rons and Eldar to test.

Necron lords have access to flamers, and there is a one-use AP2 relic flamer that I might start running. They have a weak way to counter psychics (gloom prison on the spyder... pretty rubbish, but it's something). I'd consider allying in a culexus.

Eldar warlocks primaris power is Reveal - I think it removes stealth *and* shrouded from the target unit?
Eldar wave serpents. Everyone seems to think that they were nerfed heavily... actually, I think they're still good. Not OP like before, but still good, and they put out avg. 7 S6 ignores cover shots at 24".
Wraithguard with d-scythes. I think these may now just be an essential unit to run. Probably want two, in WS, so expensive, but they seem like a hard counter.

**axisofentropy**

I just noticed the Champion's Blade of Caliban is no longer Unwieldy! Do they now have value in the Ravenwing Command Squad? S5 AP3 four attacks on charge WS5

**Dozer Blades**

axisofentropy wrote:
I just noticed the Champion's Blade of Caliban is no longer Unwieldy! Do they now have value in the Ravenwing Command Squad? S5 AP3 four attacks on charge WS5

I think it's worth it. The Corvus hammers can rend 2+.

**jadedknight**

So after playing a game today my feeling is that the Ravenwing Command Squad/BKs is where it's at, call it Knight spam. Just run a basic CAD with scouts as troops, a basic libby on bike HQ and then max out on your allies and Ravenwing command squads.

Why? RCS is great in both shooting and close combat so the jinking penalty is not as severe. They can get FNP which synergizes well with things like the Iron Hands Smash Master. Their jinks are stock 3+ rerollable. Backed with FNP that's plenty durable. Throw in a darkshroud or ravenwing support squad for the 2+ rerollable. You can easily have 3-4 of these units running around or more.

Probably the scariest matchup is Cent Star with perfect timing. The Culexus assassin is an ally option to consider.

This list is extremely resilient versus any list that depends on weight of fire or quality: Flyrants, Tau Missile Sides, Eldar.

Black Knights are excellent against non CC oriented units and Twinlinked BS2 overwatch does work against CC oriented armies on the charge.

It's very mobile so it can react to scout spam or objective oriented lists.

It would be interesting to see how it fares against Necrons, another resilience based army.

While I think Centstar or drop pod cents backed by perfect timing are a problem for it, I disagree that Tau will be. Often marker lights are concentrated in one or two units which a highly mobile list like Knight spam can react too and neutralize. Or just bring a Thunderfire cannon.

Battle company is another interesting match up. Knight spam is mobile so that helps and any Knight squad can in principle munch a transport + squad per turn. That's still a lot of bodies to work through. I think it would probably depend on some mulit-assaults which the bike bases make easier.

**Spoletta**

jakejackjake wrote:

This is definitely true. The Imperium should be sweeping tournaments soon with their broken combos

You are talking about 200 point for that before taxes. There is no way to do that for less, Sammy is the only IC with reroll. Sure if your store allows bikes to grant RW to ICs that's another problem, mine fortunately doesn't.

**wheresmypulitzer**

jadedknight wrote:
So after playing a game today my feeling is that the Ravenwing Command Squad/BKs is where it's at, call it Knight spam. Just run a basic CAD with scouts as troops, a basic libby on bike HQ and then max out on your allies and Ravenwing command squads.

Why? RCS is great in both shooting and close combat so the jinking penalty is not as severe. They can get FNP which synergizes well with things like the Iron Hands Smash Master. Their jinks are stock 3+ rerollable. Backed with FNP that's plenty durable. Throw in a darkshroud or ravenwing support squad for the 2+ rerollable. You can easily have 3-4 of these units running around or more.

Only one RCS in an army can have an Apothecary. I didn't see it at first.

**jadedknight**

wheresmypulitzer wrote:
jadedknight wrote:
So after playing a game today my feeling is that the Ravenwing Command Squad/BKs is where it's at, call it Knight spam. Just run a basic CAD with scouts as troops, a basic libby on bike HQ and then max out on your allies and Ravenwing command squads.

Why? RCS is great in both shooting and close combat so the jinking penalty is not as severe. They can get FNP which synergizes well with things like the Iron Hands Smash Master. Their jinks are stock 3+ rerollable. Backed with FNP that's plenty durable. Throw in a darkshroud or ravenwing support squad for the 2+ rerollable. You can easily have 3-4 of these units running around or more.

Only one RCS in an army can have an Apothecary. I didn't see it at first.

Yes I missed this too, it used to be every unit and you were restricted by how many bike HQs you had. No more, now it is one per army. This not withstanding I still believe that mathematically the Black knights (command squad or not) are vastly superior to regular bikes.

**Ignatius**

jadedknight wrote:
wheresmypulitzer wrote:
jadedknight wrote:
So after playing a game today my feeling is that the Ravenwing Command Squad/BKs is where it's at, call it Knight spam. Just run a basic CAD with scouts as troops, a basic libby on bike HQ and then max out on your allies and Ravenwing command squads.

Why? RCS is great in both shooting and close combat so the jinking penalty is not as severe. They can get FNP which synergizes well with things like the Iron Hands Smash Master. Their jinks are stock 3+ rerollable. Backed with FNP that's plenty durable. Throw in a darkshroud or ravenwing support squad for the 2+ rerollable. You can easily have 3-4 of these units running around or more.

Only one RCS in an army can have an Apothecary. I didn't see it at first.

Yes I missed this too, it used to be every unit and you were restricted by how many bike HQs you had. No more, now it is one per army. This not withstanding I still believe that mathematically the Black knights (command squad or not) are vastly superior to regular bikes.

Couldn't agree more. My lists will mostly be Ravenwing formation with Sammy on Corvex in a maxed out Ravenwing Command Squad, a dark shroud and typhoon speeder squadron, an allied librarius conclave on bikes and as many black knights as I can fit.

**Kersplakastani**

Those Skitarii Dragoons have such good synergy with Ravenwing. Since they don't benefit from the overwatch immunity but can still use the stealth I'm thinking of sticking a few with Radium Jezzails with a darkshroud for a nice 4+ cover save.

If that overwatch immunity could be conferred to battle-brother allies I would add in some Sicarians as well.

Overall I am quite satisfied with the new dex, it really upped the Dark Angels game quite a bit.

**axisofentropy**

Darkshroud affects only Dark Angel faction units.

**Kersplakastani**

axisofentropy wrote:
Darkshroud affects only Dark Angel faction units.

I read in my dex that it grants stealth and fear to any friendly units in its bubble, but only overwatch immunity to units from the Dark Angels faction.

**axisofentropy**

Kersplakastani wrote:
axisofentropy wrote:
Darkshroud affects only Dark Angel faction units.

I read in my dex that it grants stealth and fear to any friendly units in its bubble, but only overwatch immunity to units from the Dark Angels faction.

Do you have the digital codex? My printed codex clearly says Dark Angel faction for both.

**BrotherGecko**

This may have already been asked but as far as the demi company is concerned, how should we go about AA?

Personally right now I'm hoping FW will FAQ mortis dreads into the demi company or as a DA auxiliary. Barring that happening I can not decide what would do the job right now.

**jokerkd**

BrotherGecko wrote:
This may have already been asked but as far as the demi company is concerned, how should we go about AA?

Personally right now I'm hoping FW will FAQ mortis dreads into the demi company or as a DA auxiliary. Barring that happening I can not decide what would do the job right now.

I think the only viable choice is the SM formation. The silence squadron is a lot better now but flyers are not the best AA choice do to either arriving to early or too late.

**whembly**

jokerkd wrote:
BrotherGecko wrote:
This may have already been asked but as far as the demi company is concerned, how should we go about AA?

Personally right now I'm hoping FW will FAQ mortis dreads into the demi company or as a DA auxiliary. Barring that happening I can not decide what would do the job right now.

I think the only viable choice is the SM formation. The silence squadron is a lot better now but flyers are not the best AA choice do to either arriving to early or too late.

Mortis is a favorite in my DA army... if you're looking towards FW... take a gander at the Hyperions Defense Arrays (in Aureonautica I believe).

Frankly, you have enough options in the codexs that can take down flyers. From speeder squadrosn (massed HB + CML for the win!) or RW Knight's plasma talons can throw enough in the air to do decent damage. For DA... weight of fire is a thing.

**PandaHero**

My go to list will be something along the lines of:
-Sammy to lead the RSF
-A libby on bike when it will get FAQ
-A Command Squad with Apoth for HQ
-Lots of 4-5 man Bike squad, with dual Melta or dual Grav
-1 Land Speeder Support Squadron (3 speeder + Shroud)
-Still debating on how to finish up the list. Will probably be Termi or 1 flyer.

**raiden**

I would Ike to make a few notes on blackknights vs bike squad
-range, black knights are shooting at 9" for full effect, grav bikes can skirt at 18" away. Much better for when you need to shoot something your bikes do not want to be in combat with. (MCs, dreadknight, knights, terminators, meganobs, etc)

Cheaper- a squad of 4 with 2 grav guns costs about 10pts more than a bare squad of knights.

Effective- whether given melta or grav, (and a combi weapon)
These units of 4-5 will almost always make their points back,

Choice - with normal bikes you have the option to take land speeders, or attack bikes, as part of the unit, now that they aren't troops this is a bit less useful, but still nice to have.

-special rule, they make better use of the grim-resolve special rule at firing at bs2. They don't want to charge anything that is slightly melee oriented. So just let them charge you for extra shooting.

**axisofentropy**

raiden wrote:

Choice - with normal bikes you have the option to take land speeders, or attack bikes, as part of the unit, now that they aren't troops this is a bit less useful, but still nice to have.

Land Speeders are no longer an option in Bike squads. But Attack Bikes may now remain with a unit of three bikers, which makes for a good triple-melta threat, or even four with a combi-melta.

**ZergSmasher**

axisofentropy wrote:
raiden wrote:

Choice - with normal bikes you have the option to take land speeders, or attack bikes, as part of the unit, now that they aren't troops this is a bit less useful, but still nice to have.

Land Speeders are no longer an option in Bike squads. But Attack Bikes may now remain with a unit of three bikers, which makes for a good triple-melta threat, or even four with a combi-melta.

You can have a Land Speeder if you take the Ravenwing Attack Squadron formation. The formation even has cool bonus(es)! The downside is that they no longer have Obsec, as has already been mentioned. Still the best way to take bikers that aren't Black Knights.

@Mods: Sorry if this is thread necromancy, I'm just trying to revive interest in discussing tactics for my favorite army!

**axisofentropy**

Great news! http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Dark_Angels_v1.0_Dec15.pdf

Page 159 – Ravenwing Strike Force, Restrictions
Replace this with the following:
‘All units in this Detachment must have the Ravenwing
special rule (pg 148) or be a Dark Angels Character
equipped with a Space Marine bike.’