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yesterday I played against a really potato of a player,

he brought the aquila strongpoint thing (the 2 D blasts) and a fortress of redemtiom.

he stuck an inquisitor w/ the liber heresies (scout move relic thing) in the fortress and some scouts in the strongpoint.

He said that both were allowed to scout move because both units inside had scout and the fortifications were technically vehicles. We scoured the rulebook and I couldn't find anything saying that he couldn't.

So Dakka, I ask you, is there something preventing this specific rule or am I screwed. No matter what, I learned that I will never play against him again.

happy wargaming,

-Mikey

Pg 110 of the mini Rulebook-
"The main difference between a building and actual vehicles is that they can't move,". Second paragraph, and bold. So, if you are moving the building, that is violating the rule. You keep calling it a Scout MOVE so... nope.

As per the rule book Scout unit provide their special rule to their dedicated transport only.

Since Fortification are NOT DTs then no he could not.

Rule as per exact words:
" If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a dedicated transport, it confer the Scout special rule to the transport"

So no DT no Scout

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Pg 110 of the mini Rulebook-
"The main difference between a building and actual vehicles is that they can't move,". Second paragraph, and bold. So, if you are moving the building, that is violating the rule. You keep calling it a Scout MOVE so... nope.

On this, as per the rules for scout it technically is a redeployment rather than a straight up move. That's why you don't take difficult or dangerous terrain checks. So if you could give a building scout through some means it's perfectly viable. The way you would treat this in fluff isit was camo nets and a fake bunker?

 HANZERtank wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Pg 110 of the mini Rulebook-
"The main difference between a building and actual vehicles is that they can't move,". Second paragraph, and bold. So, if you are moving the building, that is violating the rule. You keep calling it a Scout MOVE so... nope.

On this, as per the rules for scout it technically is a redeployment rather than a straight up move. That's why you don't take difficult or dangerous terrain checks. So if you could give a building scout through some means it's perfectly viable. The way you would treat this in fluff isit was camo nets and a fake bunker?

Or...

In short Buildings can't scout redeploy as they have no permission to redeploy any number of inches. So how far you can redeploy is based on unit type, buildings don't have a unit type thus have no distance they can redeploy.

Well it's not infantry, walker, artillery or monstrous creature. So it it gets to redeploy 12" under it being 'any' other unit type. It's part of my army so it is one of my units.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Well it's not infantry, walker, artillery or monstrous creature. So it it gets to redeploy 12" under it being 'any' other unit type. It's part of my army so it is one of my units.

It is not a unit, unless you have rules that say otherwise. However being a unit is irrelevant, having a unit type is what matters (and is a model property not a unit property). What unit type is say a Bastion? It must have one if you're using the any other unit type clause to redeploy 12".

It's unit type is unknown. Therefore it being of the Unit Type:Unknown it does a 12" redeploy as it is not named as one of the ones that does 6". Any other unit type includes new ones made or unclassified.

Anyway I don't think there is a way to give a building scout so it's a moot point. More interesting is the ability to outflank buildings using the warlord trait from AM.

I was actually scouring the rulebook last night looking up more of the "deep striking fortifications" nonsense. I can say with certainty that Buildings purchased as part of your army are units with a unit type of Building. They use all the same rules as Transports, but are immobile and can't move. So long as the Scout rule states that it is redeployed, and isn't moved, then you are able to redeploy it. I know Necrons have a "grand illusion" special rule for the Deceiver, and there are other special rules, that allows units to be redeployed. As this is a re-deployment, and not a movement, then the building can indeed be redeployed.

 Yarium wrote:
I was actually scouring the rulebook last night looking up more of the "deep striking fortifications" nonsense. I can say with certainty that Buildings purchased as part of your army are units with a unit type of Building. They use all the same rules as Transports, but are immobile and can't move. So long as the Scout rule states that it is redeployed, and isn't moved, then you are able to redeploy it. I know Necrons have a "grand illusion" special rule for the Deceiver, and there are other special rules, that allows units to be redeployed. As this is a re-deployment, and not a movement, then the building can indeed be redeployed.

I suppose you have rule quotes to back up the outlandish claims that buildings are units (as nothing in the rules says this) and that they gave unit type: Building and that Building is a valid unit type.

Because my rule never says buildings are units (so they aren't). It does not list Building as a unit type or mention buildings at all in the unit type section. Whilst it does not in the BrB or Stronghold assault list a single unit type with any building. It lists Terrain Types which are an entirely different thing.

So page and paragraph or direct quote for whereyou got your claims please.

 HANZERtank wrote:
It's unit type is unknown. Therefore it being of the Unit Type:Unknown it does a 12" redeploy as it is not named as one of the ones that does 6". Any other unit type includes new ones made or unclassified.

Anyway I don't think there is a way to give a building scout so it's a moot point. More interesting is the ability to outflank buildings using the warlord trait from AM.

I'm not 100% if you can have a building in reserve though...

The rule:

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of there units, keeping them as Reserves to deploy later. In addition, if it is impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle."

This rule doesn't make it clear if the italicized portion occurs during the orange part, or the green part. Because of the "In addition" text, it's possible that "the only exception" references the orange text only, meaning that units that can't move after they have been deployed (ie - Building) can't be kept in Reserves. It's also possible that "the only exception" references only the preceding green sentence, meaning that such units (Buildings) are only destroyed if it were impossible to deploy them, but that if it is possible to deploy them, then they could be chosen to be held in Reserves.

Which of these two options is true is not known by me.

 HANZERtank wrote:
It's unit type is unknown. Therefore it being of the Unit Type:Unknown it does a 12" redeploy as it is not named as one of the ones that does 6". Any other unit type includes new ones made or unclassified.

Anyway I don't think there is a way to give a building scout so it's a moot point. More interesting is the ability to outflank buildings using the warlord trait from AM.

Where does it say it has unit type: unknown? Skitarii have a detachment that gives fortifications scout.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I was actually scouring the rulebook last night looking up more of the "deep striking fortifications" nonsense. I can say with certainty that Buildings purchased as part of your army are units with a unit type of Building. They use all the same rules as Transports, but are immobile and can't move. So long as the Scout rule states that it is redeployed, and isn't moved, then you are able to redeploy it. I know Necrons have a "grand illusion" special rule for the Deceiver, and there are other special rules, that allows units to be redeployed. As this is a re-deployment, and not a movement, then the building can indeed be redeployed.

I suppose you have rule quotes to back up the outlandish claims that buildings are units (as nothing in the rules says this) and that they gave unit type: Building and that Building is a valid unit type.

Because my rule never says buildings are units (so they aren't). It does not list Building as a unit type or mention buildings at all in the unit type section. Whilst it does not in the BrB or Stronghold assault list a single unit type with any building. It lists Terrain Types which are an entirely different thing.

So page and paragraph or direct quote for where you got your claims please.

If you can wait 5 hours for me to get home, I will get that info for you. I was looking through the rules last night and found a specific entry that really did verify this for me. It doesn't say "it's unit type is Building", but it does make it very clear that buildings are units. As for why unit type of Building? Because that is the only way they are referred to. In fact, I'm not 100% certain that if you look in the rulebook you'll be able to find a page that says "vehicles are units with a unit type of vehicle"... though admittedly, I've never had reason to look.

Well I have a bastion, it is a model in my army. Page 9 says "The models that make up your army must be organised into 'units'." Thus means my bastion model must be a unit. For it to be a unit it needs a unit type. We don't know what it's type is but it's definitely not infantry, walker, artillery or monstrous creature. I can't see anything else saying it can scout though. I'm happy to go either way on it right now.

 HANZERtank wrote:
It's unit type is unknown. Therefore it being of the Unit Type:Unknown it does a 12" redeploy as it is not named as one of the ones that does 6". Any other unit type includes new ones made or unclassified.

Anyway I don't think there is a way to give a building scout so it's a moot point. More interesting is the ability to outflank buildings using the warlord trait from AM.

I do agree with you that it can move 12" if it had scout, which as eldar one of my warlord traits is give D3 units in your army scout, So i can give a fortification(since it is a UNIT slot on the force chart) scout. This would allow me to move it up to 12" during the scout phase.
I do however disagree with how the other player used the scouts and the inquisitor to move the building, since you cannot take the building as a dedicated transport (from my recollection) so he should not have been able to move the building.

Can a Fortification be placed in reserve? That sounds weird and unlikely to me. How would you determine where you could place it when it comes in?

Also how did you come up with 12" scout move on a model that cannot ordinarily move at all?

Because thats what it says in the BrB ON PG 171 for scout.
If it is infantry,artillery, walker or MC, then it can scout 6", it it is any other unit type than it can redeploy within 12"

 HANZERtank wrote:
Well I have a bastion, it is a model in my army. Page 9 says "The models that make up your army must be organised into 'units'." Thus means my bastion model must be a unit. For it to be a unit it needs a unit type. We don't know what it's type is but it's definitely not infantry, walker, artillery or monstrous creature. I can't see anything else saying it can scout though. I'm happy to go either way on it right now.

I follow your logic on it being a unit will have to get back to you on that if I find an error in it.

Why does being a unit mean it must have a unit type? Models have unut types not units so making ANY units have a unit type let alone all as you claim is certainly contrary to the rulebook.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bluestang10 wrote:
Because thats what it says in the BrB ON PG 171 for scout.
If it is infantry,artillery, walker or MC, then it can scout 6", it it is any other unit type than it can redeploy within 12"

Why 12" though it is not a MC, Inf, walker or Artillery, nor is it any other unit type so why arbitrarily choose 12"?

I'd say if they do have a unit type it would be transport. It says in the building section it uses aspects of the transport vehicles rules. I don't know exactly how far you would take this but that's one way to do it.

bluestang10 wrote:

Why 12" though it is not a MC, Inf, walker or Artillery, nor is it any other unit type so why arbitrarily choose 12"?

So I am not arbitrarily choosing 12", the RAW says it is a 12" scout move(assuming you can give it scout, which I know I could with the correct warlord trait). You are arguing that the building is not a unit, which is were I disagree. The building rules as stated in the BrB says that is uses all aspects of the transport vehicle rules, the difference being that it cannot move. and they can be controlled by either side. So RAW it is a unit, you take it in a unit slot in your Force Chart, and giving it scout with a warlord trait or such will allow you to move it before the game starts, because scout is a REDEPLOYMENT not a move.

I wasn't arguing whether it was a unit. Being a unit is irrelevant, having a unit type is relevant. So what unit type does a Fortification have? Remembering unit type is a model property not a unit property (so no units have a unit type ever).

A model doesn't have to have a unit type to be a unit. It just SHOULD. If a model doesn't have a unit type, then we're at an impasse when we are asked about its type.

We're not at an impasse it simply doesn't have a unit type.

 FlingitNow wrote:
We're not at an impasse it simply doesn't have a unit type.

Out of curiosity... why is that important here?

 FlingitNow wrote:
We're not at an impasse it simply doesn't have a unit type.

Haha. That's why I qualified the statement. We're never at an impasse because we're never asked about the unit type of a building. If a rule actually asked for the unit type of a building, we wouldn't be able to answer and the rule would break. No current rule cares about the unit type. Some rules care about the fact that a fortification/building can be a unit.

 Yarium wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
We're not at an impasse it simply doesn't have a unit type.

Out of curiosity... why is that important here?

To redeploy 6" you must have a unit type of Infantry, MC, Artillery or Walker.

To redeploy 12" must have any other unit type.

With no unit type you don't fall into either category thus have no permission to redeploy any distance. Hence why Fortifications can't scout redeploy.

By that logic, do you restrict them from shooting as well? Since you must select a unit from you force to shoot before selecting a target. If they aren't units, (as you claim) can they not shoot?

 Jimsolo wrote:
By that logic, do you restrict them from shooting as well? Since you must select a unit from you force to shoot before selecting a target. If they aren't units, (as you claim) can they not shoot?

My logic had nothing to do with whether or not they were units. Please point to the part where I've stated being a unit or not has ANY impact on being able to Scout move?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
We're not at an impasse it simply doesn't have a unit type.

Out of curiosity... why is that important here?

To redeploy 6" you must have a unit type of Infantry, MC, Artillery or Walker.

To redeploy 12" must have any other unit type.

With no unit type you don't fall into either category thus have no permission to redeploy any distance. Hence why Fortifications can't scout redeploy.

But logically that doesn't following:

IF (unit type = Infantry, Monstrous Creature, Artillery, or Walker)
> > THEN (Scout redeploy = 6 inches)

IF (unit type =/= Infantry, Monstrous Creature, Artillery, or Walker)
> > THEN (Scout redeploy = 12 inches)

So, if unit type is null, then null is not infantry, monstrous creature, artillery, or walker, which means that as a unit with Scout, it'd be redeployed 12".