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Bah...


If they're units, then why do they have a Terrain Type? Why aren't they listed under Unit Types? Why are their rules under Battlefield Terrain section of the rulebook? Why does page 130 have to specify that you deploy your Fortification with the units in your army? If it's a unit, then why do they have to specific how to shoot at one? I could go on.

A vague two sentence paragraph on page 9, that doesn't mention fortifications at all, doesn't provide empirical proof that it is a unit.

 Happyjew wrote:
Except 12" is for unit types that are not Infantry, Artillery, Walker nor Monstrous Creature.

If you do not have a unit type, you do not fall into that category (nor do you fall into the category of "Unit Type={Infantry, Artillery, Walker, Monstrous Creature}".

100% this.

So it cam be given infiltrate, but it can't actually redeploy any inches as only those unit types specified can redeploy 6 inches (or 12 inches for those other unit types mentioned).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Except 12" is for unit types that are not Infantry, Artillery, Walker nor Monstrous Creature.

If you do not have a unit type, you do not fall into that category (nor do you fall into the category of "Unit Type={Infantry, Artillery, Walker, Monstrous Creature}".

100% this.

So it cam be given infiltrate, but it can't actually redeploy any inches as only those unit types specified can redeploy 6 inches (or 12 inches for those other unit types mentioned).

Except that it doesn't have a Unit Type at all, it has a Terrain Type.

And anyways, even if it does what it says you "think" it can, how are you going to take a Fortification as a DEDICATED TRANSPORT for a unit with Scout and/or Infiltrate. That's the only way to give a vehicle to receive those rules if it doesn't have them inherently.

 Chardun wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Except 12" is for unit types that are not Infantry, Artillery, Walker nor Monstrous Creature.

If you do not have a unit type, you do not fall into that category (nor do you fall into the category of "Unit Type={Infantry, Artillery, Walker, Monstrous Creature}".

100% this.

So it cam be given infiltrate, but it can't actually redeploy any inches as only those unit types specified can redeploy 6 inches (or 12 inches for those other unit types mentioned).

Except that it doesn't have a Unit Type at all, it has a Terrain Type.

And anyways, even if it does what it says you "think" it can, how are you going to take a Fortification as a DEDICATED TRANSPORT for a unit with Scout and/or Infiltrate. That's the only way to give a vehicle to receive those rules if it doesn't have them inherently.

So much wrong with this post. First unit types has NOTHING to do with units it is a model property. The models in your army are formed into units, Fortifications are models in your army so it follows they are units. However they don't have unit types.

This prevents them from Scouting any distance as they are neither eligible for the 6" scout nor the 12" scout. The post you're quoting says this and actually agrees that Forts can't scout.

Finally no one mentioned Dedicated Transports as that is not relevant. There are multiple ways to give a Fortification Scout and we are discussing the impact of those. So why even mention dedicated transports?

Building are units
"• A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army
• At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player.`" p.112

look in the rule book page 112 at the top it's crazy how people can argue.

This is asked like twice a month it's getting silly

they cant scout though because they don't have a "unit type"

As pointed out,
A) units with scout embarked in a building give the building nothing, because it isn't a dedicated transport.

B) Buildings don't have unit type and fall between the rules of scout (6" for some others, 12" for other unit types, no idea what to do with no unit type).

C) Additional mess of multi-part buildings.
You'd also have to deal with this part of the building rules for a fortress of redemption:
Page 112, under multi-part buildings.

After discussing units moving into 1 part of a multi-part building: In all other regards, the buildings that make up a multi-part building are treated as separate models.

My farseer rolls up "An Eye on Distant Events"; Choose up to D3 units in your army. These units gain the Scout special rule. I roll a 1 on my D3.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Chardun wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Except 12" is for unit types that are not Infantry, Artillery, Walker nor Monstrous Creature.

If you do not have a unit type, you do not fall into that category (nor do you fall into the category of "Unit Type={Infantry, Artillery, Walker, Monstrous Creature}".

100% this.

So it cam be given infiltrate, but it can't actually redeploy any inches as only those unit types specified can redeploy 6 inches (or 12 inches for those other unit types mentioned).

Except that it doesn't have a Unit Type at all, it has a Terrain Type.

And anyways, even if it does what it says you "think" it can, how are you going to take a Fortification as a DEDICATED TRANSPORT for a unit with Scout and/or Infiltrate. That's the only way to give a vehicle to receive those rules if it doesn't have them inherently.

So much wrong with this post. First unit types has NOTHING to do with units it is a model property. The models in your army are formed into units, Fortifications are models in your army so it follows they are units. However they don't have unit types.

This prevents them from Scouting any distance as they are neither eligible for the 6" scout nor the 12" scout. The post you're quoting says this and actually agrees that Forts can't scout.

Finally no one mentioned Dedicated Transports as that is not relevant. There are multiple ways to give a Fortification Scout and we are discussing the impact of those. So why even mention dedicated transports?

(Emphasis mine)

Stop saying this (The underlined and orange text), it is simply not true.

Fortifications are not models.

Okay so the OP got massively cheated by a douche. Why is this four pages ??

Old time sake, was bored and drifted through here on an old bookmark, and no book as I am 'retired.'

It has never been the "Unit Type" of the Building causing the issue, but the Warlord Trait or Special Rule granting the 'Scout' or 'Deep Strike' or 'insert other Deployment manipulation rule here' to begin with. Timing is twice as critical with Buildings as it is with other Rules, as they do not have 'Unit Types' and are not even Models by default. Even purchasing them for your Army requires secondary Rules, found outside of the Basic Rulebook as Game Workshop has incompetent editors, in order to be Rule-as-Written legal. They have Advanced Rules that kick in to give them X or Y at specific Times, so all we need to do is look at those Rules to find a 'technically correct' answer by applying one to the situation in question.

When do you apply Warlord Traits granting other Special Rules to a Unit?
When does the Claimed Building rule take affect?

To date I have seen only one situation which gets around the timing restraint, allowing the legal deep striking of any Building. The details are a little forgotten, so the original writer should come forth with them again. It involved a lot of loophole manipulation with two very unlikely army combinations, Necron and Dark Eldar, just to get the Building into Reserve with this timing problem in mind. If you see any other combinations, call shenanigans and bring it to this site for more closer examination by someone less 'retired.' If you want to try the Necron thing yourself, cause deep striking buildings can be hilarious, and the original writer of that combination does not post... I believe it was a Necron Unique that allowed units to be reserved or re-deployed after the game started... and Buildings lacking factions can be very useful at times.

PS:
Stating the problem comes from how far the Building would Scout, because the lack of a Unit Type, is to state that Buildings can Scout to begin with. It does not entertain the prospect that the lack of details within the two rule interaction could stem from an illegal combination in the first place... come on, the authors are bad but they might not be that bad! Besides, a Rule combination leading to the 'Broken Outcome' does not make anything illegal, nor does it matter if one answer 'breaks less' as that does not make it technically 'more correct' either. Buildings are a 'unique butterfly' as they exist on timing and Advanced Rule interactions, so there will be breaks, but the authors have gone to such extents not to create a Unit Type: Building that they do appear to be keeping at least half an eye on the interactions here.

You have to go more then 'Warlord Trait' deep to get these Re-deploy Special Rules to apply in the first place.

We're not just talking about Warlord traits. We're talking about buildings who have been given Scout by their Detachment rules.

JinxDragon wrote:
Old time sake, was bored and drifted through here on an old bookmark, and no book as I am 'retired.'

It has never been the "Unit Type" of the Building causing the issue, but the Warlord Trait or Special Rule granting the 'Scout' or 'Deep Strike' or 'insert other Deployment manipulation rule here' to begin with. Timing is twice as critical with Buildings as it is with other Rules, as they do not have 'Unit Types' and are not even Models by default. Even purchasing them for your Army requires secondary Rules, found outside of the Basic Rulebook

Actually some of them are in the basic rule book now. Some are data sheets just like any other expansion model.

as Game Workshop has incompetent editors, in order to be Rule-as-Written legal. They have Advanced Rules that kick in to give them X or Y at specific Times, so all we need to do is look at those Rules to find a 'technically correct' answer by applying one to the situation in question.

When do you apply Warlord Traits granting other Special Rules to a Unit?
When does the Claimed Building rule take affect?

To date I have seen only one situation which gets around the timing restraint, allowing the legal deep striking of any Building. The details are a little forgotten, so the original writer should come forth with them again. It involved a lot of loophole manipulation with two very unlikely army combinations, Necron and Dark Eldar, just to get the Building into Reserve with this timing problem in mind. If you see any other combinations, call shenanigans and bring it to this site for more closer examination by someone less 'retired.' If you want to try the Necron thing yourself, cause deep striking buildings can be hilarious, and the original writer of that combination does not post... I believe it was a Necron Unique that allowed units to be reserved or re-deployed after the game started... and Buildings lacking factions can be very useful at times.

PS:
Stating the problem comes from how far the Building would Scout, because the lack of a Unit Type, is to state that Buildings can Scout to begin with. It does not entertain the prospect that the lack of details within the two rule interaction could stem from an illegal combination in the first place... come on, the authors are bad but they might not be that bad! Besides, a Rule combination leading to the 'Broken Outcome' does not make anything illegal, nor does it matter if one answer 'breaks less' as that does not make it technically 'more correct' either. Buildings are a 'unique butterfly' as they exist on timing and Advanced Rule interactions, so there will be breaks, but the authors have gone to such extents not to create a Unit Type: Building that they do appear to be keeping at least half an eye on the interactions here.

You have to go more then 'Warlord Trait' deep to get these Re-deploy Special Rules to apply in the first place.

If you say so. most people on here appear to concede plastic miniature buildings for toy soldiers are indeed models. Many of them even concede they're units (when bought as part of your army list). I find it interesting you think buildings can deep strike but can't scout.

He is correct they can DS with a WWP but can never Scout as has been proven in this very thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also which fortifications are in the core rulebook?

Breton wrote:
If you say so. most people on here appear to concede plastic miniature buildings for toy soldiers are indeed models. Many of them even concede they're units (when bought as part of your army list). I find it interesting you think buildings can deep strike but can't scout.

As far as the 40K rules are concerned, Buildings are not Models. (Even though they are models by real world definition, they are not Models as far as the 40K rules define Model).


"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section." (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section).

Every model has a Unit type. Buildings are not models as they do not have a unit type, they are terrain.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:
If you say so. most people on here appear to concede plastic miniature buildings for toy soldiers are indeed models. Many of them even concede they're units (when bought as part of your army list). I find it interesting you think buildings can deep strike but can't scout.

As far as the 40K rules are concerned, Buildings are not Models. (Even though they are models by real world definition, they are not Models as far as the 40K rules define Model).


"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section." (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section).

Every model has a Unit type. Buildings are not models as they do not have a unit type, they are terrain.

Then how does one take one in one's army? One's army is made of models organized into units.

Breton wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Breton wrote:
If you say so. most people on here appear to concede plastic miniature buildings for toy soldiers are indeed models. Many of them even concede they're units (when bought as part of your army list). I find it interesting you think buildings can deep strike but can't scout.

As far as the 40K rules are concerned, Buildings are not Models. (Even though they are models by real world definition, they are not Models as far as the 40K rules define Model).


"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section." (Models and Units chapter, Other Important Information section).

Every model has a Unit type. Buildings are not models as they do not have a unit type, they are terrain.

Then how does one take one in one's army? One's army is made of models organized into units.

The rules say you can take a fortification...

What are units comprised of?

 FlingitNow wrote:
What are units comprised of?

That question has not bearing on anything in this discussion.

Why not? Fortifications are units. Units
are made of what?

...is a basic rule. Foritifcatoiuns are given the status of units, that does not automatically mean they are exempt from needng a unit type

I understand that Nos, Fortifications certainly can't scout. I'm less convinced by DeathReapers claim that in 7th Fortifications aren't models.

Youre presumably asking whether the lack of unit type means it isnt a model, or whether being in a unit means it must be a model, and the lack of unit type is irrelevant / excepted in some way. Except that you arte not given permission to ignore the requirement to have a unit type, and thus you have the explicit (it is definitely a unit) overriding the implicit (it must also be a model)

I don't think FlingitNow has changed his opinion of the scouting, he's just not swallowing the idea that your model of a fortress isn't a model based on one part of the rulebook that describes models, while ignoring another part that describes the contents of your army list as models.

I'd also argue Fortifications have a specific exception to having a unit type as the building rules state that they don't have one and instead have a terrain type.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'd also argue Fortifications have a specific exception to having a unit type as the building rules state that they don't have one and instead have a terrain type.

That isnt a specific exception though, otherwise would say "despite being a model, it has no unit type. Instead..."

As I said, at best you have implication versus a specific rule stating that a model has constituent components X. If you do not fulfil those, barring a specific rule, you ar enot a model

And the BRB saying your Army list has constituent components Y - models organized into units?

I already covered that. See post at 2015/07/06 10:45:06

It is a vehicle. BRB 110

The main difference between buildings and actual vehicles is that they can't move, they can be controlled by either side and units from either side can embark upon them.

Everything else between the two is the same. Noticed how it is put in bold. This is intended to be the case.

Please explain why buildings are not vehicles.

Because the rules never define them as Vehicles, as they're not 'Unit Type: Vehicle'.

Same page also in bold in the BRB 110, "treat the building as a vehicle unless specifically stated otherwise."

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
Same page also in bold in the BRB 110, "treat the building as a vehicle unless specifically stated otherwise."

Except that is under the "Battlefield Terrian" Chapter, "Attacking Buildings" section.

If you are not attacking the building that clause about treating the building as a vehicle does not apply.