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Consider this: Every single Imperial army now has access to a 2+ rerollable cover save IC for the low cost of 350 points. ( Sammael + Min Ravenwing Squadron + Darkshroud ).
He's the return of Baron Sathonyx for 7th, granting your deathstar hit and run, with the added bonus of EW and a rerollable 2+ save which isn't dependent on Fortune.

If your Imperial army has other native ways of gaining Stealth/Shrouded (cough cough Canticles) the Darkshroud is superfluous.

The new Codex: Dark Angel allows the fielding of an ENTIRE ARMY of re-rollable 2+ cover saves. Jinking doesn't affect their ballistic skill in the first and most crucial alpha-strike turn.

Where's the outrage? The torches, the pitchforks, the angry mob? This kills the metagame. The metagame has now been fundamentally changed to Armies Which Can Ignore Cover Effectively
and Everyone Buggered By Ravenwing. (Not that Ravenwing players are that common, but soon... the bandwagoning will begin. All the competitive tournament Marine players already have bikes...)

Some armies which have limited/no access to Ignores Cover are utterly boned. Ravenwing will give fits to Tyranid, Orks, and shooty Necron armies. Eldar,who have limited access to Ignores Cover shooting aside from rolling Perfect Timing, will struggle. Stealth buff to Tau (and Legion of the Damned ), but RW can be built around killing their Ignores Cover sources. Sisters have Dominions, but do they have enough?

This would be mitigated if they were primarily a shooting army, bu they also now have the tools to create a nigh-unbeatable close combat unit (Conclave Bikers + Black Knight Command + Iron Hands Chapter Masters) with a 5" minimum charge distance. They are also now a tier-one alpha plus assault army. In fact, they are possibly the best assault army in the game. ( Darkshroud + x number of Black Knights = 2+ re-rollable cover save, 24" moving, 4 str 5 rending attacks + HoW, -1 ws/ initiative , HnR, BS2 Twin-Linked overwatching...) Black Knight deathstars will be the Centstars of 7th edition.

I'm not saying that they are unbeatable, not by a longshot. They are powerful enough to force an entire meta shift, however. Auspex. Auspex everywhere...

I've been a Dark Angels player since Codex: Angels of Death and even I think it's a little excessive. Ravenwing has gone from one end of the spectrum to the stratosphere, to the point where if your enemy is unprepared without Ignores Cover or fails to roll Perfect Timing, the game becomes one sided pretty quickly.

P.S. (I am a competitive 40k tournament attendee, and play the game with the strongest list I can imagine to bring, in GTs where everyone else is attempting to do the same. I don't enjoy playing casual games or non-optimal games of 40k. This post is more directed towards the 'competitive' player, in as much as one can be, than the casual player. I am aware you can self-nerf in casual games, but they have little appeal to me.)

I don't get it. Was it all sarcasm or not?

It doesn't seem excessive to me, but it also doesn't seem weak.

Just the title. Having an army where your opponent can't kill a single unit isn't excessive?

Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.

With SM it seems to be pretty smooth sailing, although they also got a rather considerably good codex. I understand the SM are not as amazing as Eldar on paper, but they are both certainly in the top tier at the moment.

Not that I'm complaining (even being a CSM player myself) it's nice not to have the angry mob recycling the same threads over and over about OP Eldar->SM codex's.

Probably because this has become the new norm for the game and people are just giving up on caring anymore. Either you keep playing and accept these good awful over powered nonsense list or you quit, it is an easy choice for some people.

The difference here is that Ravenwing lacks the same punch that a lot of other list pack in addition to being really resilient. If you want worse IoM list that people complain about look at the Ad Mech host that gets free upgrades, which isn't really to bad but it is stupid that something like that exist, or the Devastator/Assault marine formation. Plenty of people complaining about those two.

 clamclaw wrote:
Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.

With SM it seems to be pretty smooth sailing, although they also got a rather considerably good codex. I understand the SM are not as amazing as Eldar on paper, but they are both certainly in the top tier at the moment.

Not that I'm complaining (even being a CSM player myself) it's nice not to have the angry mob recycling the same threads over and over about OP Eldar->SM codex's.

There is loads of huffing and puffing over it. If you're avoiding the threads on it, it doesn't mean that they don't exist.
The free vehicles and the formation where everything gets obsec is a point of major rage.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Just the title. Having an army where your opponent can't kill a single unit isn't excessive?

There are weapons that allow no cover (like every single template weapon) and cover saves do nothing in close combat.

It's pretty tame when compared to the Eldar buffs, and even compared to SM it's no more than in line with what's going on at the moment.

I doubt anyone would run a deathstar like that without invisibility, otherwise WWP D flamers would have it too easy to counter it.

For my IG it changes nothing, after eldar, tech guys and marines being able to alfa strike me off the table in one or two turns, a ++2cover army is not much of a problem.

Makumba wrote:
I doubt anyone would run a deathstar like that without invisibility, otherwise WWP D flamers would have it too easy to counter it.

For my IG it changes nothing, after eldar, tech guys and marines being able to alfa strike me off the table in one or two turns, a ++2cover army is not much of a problem.

that's what Conclave is there for, 10 rolls on Telepathy + casting it on a 2+. They can also hide in close combat for every turn after the first easily before the WWP D can come in.

They can even kill the Wraithstar in CC; Darkshrouds prevent overwatch.

They can also get 16 BS 5 twin linked, interceptor assault cannon shots.

If you can't take ignores cover weapons you will feel a bit boned by that, but as Arbiter_Shade said it's the new norm.
I am just thankful that FW have the HH going - i would have quit otherwise.

special rules for taking certain units for no cost, assault after deepstriking, heavy weapon obsec jetbike troopspam, 2+ re-rollable saves, armywide free upgrades - it really is beyond a joke now; this kind of stuff was hyperbole in after-match conversations about 4 years ago.

The new codexes/formations/combos have straight up broken the game. The only way to compete is to spend more money.


I am so glad i'm out of 40k!

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Probably because this has become the new norm for the game and people are just giving up on caring anymore. Either you keep playing and accept these good awful over powered nonsense list or you quit, it is an easy choice for some people.

The difference here is that Ravenwing lacks the same punch that a lot of other list pack in addition to being really resilient. If you want worse IoM list that people complain about look at the Ad Mech host that gets free upgrades, which isn't really to bad but it is stupid that something like that exist, or the Devastator/Assault marine formation. Plenty of people complaining about those two.

Black Knights are punchy. Verrrrry punchy. They're punchier than most 'punch' units in the game.They're just rare, so people don't know how punchy they are. They are punchy and also shooty, like twin-linked Plasma gun shooty. And they have hit and run, so they can shoot and punch you most of each turn.

War Convocation and Skyhammer aren't even nearly close to the threat that Ravenwing brings. Both formations lose hard against equal points of Shroud + BKs.

Maybe less people are buying the Codexes and actually can be bothered any more?

 clamclaw wrote:
Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.

A. There's been lots of "huffing and puffing" over Marines.

B. Eldar is arguably the no-return cut-off point for many.

From Orks, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar to Blood Angels, Harlequins and Daemonkin, it all seemed fairly reasonable in 7th Edition. Eldar were the most powerful thing out there with a 6th Edition Codex and the relatively powerful Necron Codex could be explained as a fluke/mistake/unfamiliarity with Decurion-style army formations. People expected the new Eldar Codex to tone it down to 7th-Edition average.

With Eldar, all doubts have been removed as to what's coming. Codex-power-policy changed, and the cheese-breaks have been taken off for good.

People expected silly cheese from Space Marines. People expected silly cheese from Dark Angels. People will expect silly cheese from everything coming out in the future.

Are there going to be similar levels of outrage when Tau get a a new Codex where Riptides shoot you in deepstrike reserve with D-Weapons on turn 0 before you even deploy? Probably not. After Eldar, we know where this game is headed.

 SirDonlad wrote:
If you can't take ignores cover weapons you will feel a bit boned by that, but as Arbiter_Shade said it's the new norm.
I am just thankful that FW have the HH going - i would have quit otherwise.

special rules for taking certain units for no cost, assault after deepstriking, heavy weapon obsec jetbike troopspam, 2+ re-rollable saves, armywide free upgrades - it really is beyond a joke now; this kind of stuff was hyperbole in after-match conversations about 4 years ago.

The new codexes/formations/combos have straight up broken the game. The only way to compete is to spend more money.


I am so glad i'm out of 40k!

I enjoy changes in the game. New rules keep the game fresh and strategy novel. I'd hate to be stuck in the same, stale edition for decades on end. New op rules? Great! Learn to fight them.

I happened to build a Black Knight army before in 6th for laughs. Spend to update my list? 0. Sometimes you get lucky like that

Great strawman there.

Balanced and playable rules doesn't mean things can't be changed and freshened up. It doesn't mean that there's no challenge in learning the best way to handle something new.

There's no excuse for poor rules other than a lack of care in game design, and there's even less excuse for not making an attempt to mitigate them after the fact.

But hey, you fall back on your L2P Noob arguments if it makes you feel better about having low standards.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.

A. There's been lots of "huffing and puffing" over Marines.

B. Eldar is arguably the no-return cut-off point for many.

From Orks, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar to Blood Angels, Harlequins and Daemonkin, it all seemed fairly reasonable in 7th Edition. Eldar were the most powerful thing out there with a 6th Edition Codex and the relatively powerful Necron Codex could be explained as a fluke/mistake/unfamiliarity with Decurion-style army formations. People expected the new Eldar Codex to tone it down to 7th-Edition average.

With Eldar, all doubts have been removed as to what's coming. Codex-power-policy changed, and the cheese-breaks have been taken off for good.

People expected silly cheese from Space Marines. People expected silly cheese from Dark Angels. People will expect silly cheese from everything coming out in the future.

Are there going to be similar levels of outrage when Tau get a a new Codex where Riptides shoot you in deepstrike reserve with D-Weapons on turn 0 before you even deploy? Probably not. After Eldar, we know where this game is headed.

Eldar are strong but not unbeatable. Actual tournament performance has been spotty. Losing the DE Beastpack and Baron and WS spam was a big hit for them.

Also, Eldar are distinctly lower tier than Ravenwing/Iron Hands/ Conclave now. Only their Seer Council has an even chance, not even an advantage.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Great strawman there.

Balanced and playable rules doesn't mean things can't be changed and freshened up. It doesn't mean that there's no challenge in learning the best way to handle something new.

There's no excuse for poor rules other than a lack of care in game design, and there's even less excuse for not making an attempt to mitigate them after the fact.

But hey, you fall back on your L2P Noob arguments if it makes you feel better about having low standards.

No need for ad hominems, dear fellow. I never claimed the rules were fair or balanced; or that GW has any quality control whatsoever. No amount of complaining will make them better at it.

I already established at the start I'm a powergamer through and through playing primarily against other powergamers... this isn't a discussion about GW as an effective rules writing company.

Drop pod Dreadnoughts with heavy flamers and 2x flamer drop Marines could be useful right? Luckily I already run 2 of each in all my TAC lists.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


I already established at the start I'm a powergamer through and through playing primarily against other powergamers... this isn't a discussion about GW as an effective rules writing company.

No. But your question was, why there is seemingly less outrage over post-Eldar books than there was over Eldar.

Outrage (or lack thereof) doesn't come only from dedicated powergamers. It comes from the length and breadth of the 40K-gamers.

And for the vast majority (except perhaps the hard core powergamers as yourself, judging by our posts), Eldar is where 7th jumped the flying, laser-shooting shark, jumped in long and hard.

Jumping the shark again, and again, and again with Space Marines, Dark Angels, etc.. just doesn't create the same shock. The first cut is the deepest and all that. It's not specifically about Eldar, it's just the Eldar were the obvious start.

As for me I was quite happy when I really do like the idea of 2+ rerollable anything ( also looking at you true names) having only a 1/36 chance to fail a save and then possibly having FNP on top is incredibly dumb and hurts the casual and competitive gamers alike.


For this I think I'm going to have to start putting auspex on my HQs now when I have the points to spare.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Eldar are strong but not unbeatable. Actual tournament performance has been spotty. Losing the DE Beastpack and Baron and WS spam was a big hit for them.

Also, Eldar are distinctly lower tier than Ravenwing/Iron Hands/ Conclave now. Only their Seer Council has an even chance, not even an advantage.

Yeah, I think the biggest thing lately has been the lack of total Eldar domination like people were proclaiming after the codex was leaked. From what I've been seeing locally (Midwest US) there has been a nice smattering of armies in the top 5 to 10 at every event. By no means a total Eldar win streak.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:Drop pod Dreadnoughts with heavy flamers and 2x flamer drop Marines could be useful right? Luckily I already run 2 of each in all my TAC lists.

They'll do damage (inconsistently) but not sufficiently to be a hard counter? Salamanders are suddenly a thing

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


I already established at the start I'm a powergamer through and through playing primarily against other powergamers... this isn't a discussion about GW as an effective rules writing company.

No. But your question was, why there is seemingly less outrage over post-Eldar books than there was over Eldar.

Outrage (or lack thereof) doesn't come only from dedicated powergamers. It comes from the length and breadth of the 40K-gamers.

And for the vast majority (except perhaps the hard core powergamers as yourself, judging by our posts), Eldar is where 7th jumped the flying, laser-shooting shark, jumped in long and hard.

Jumping the shark again, and again, and again with Space Marines, Dark Angels, etc.. just doesn't create the same shock. The first cut is the deepest and all that. It's not specifically about Eldar, it's just the Eldar were the obvious start.

Ah... they've expanded all their rage and are now prostrate on the proverbial floor, and can only raise their finger (which one, I can probably hazard a guess) in defeat or surrender at this latest madness.

I do not think re-rollable 2+ saves are a balanced mechanic, but GW honestly doesn't seem to care...

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Ah... they've expanded all their rage and are now prostrate on the proverbial floor, and can only raise their finger (which one, I can probably hazard a guess) in defeat or surrender at this latest madness.

I do not think re-rollable 2+ saves are a balanced mechanic, but GW honestly doesn't seem to care...

It's not about exhaustion. It's simply the fact you cannot destabilize the system further with individual unbalanced rules.

Eldar kicked over the bucket when things were by and large looking good. Now the bucket is on the side and all the fun ran out. Kicking it even more, jumping on it, running a bulldozer over it, just doesn't make as much of a difference as the first spill.

The balance of individual rules or books is irrelevant when the whole system is already down the toilet.

I stopped playing randos in the FLGS a couple editions ago. I also stopped actively promoting GW games to people, and I stopped caring about how powerful X codex was against Y codex. I think a couple guys already hit the nail on the head: we're no longer surprised when GW writes unbalanced rules. Unbalanced rules and unwanted changes is sorta their thing. And there's a smaller and smaller core of people who continue to play the game as it's currently written: house rules, tournament organizers patching cracks and holes, and groups choosing to play older editions is the norm and practically required.

I have trouble understanding why anyone would play 40K competetively. It's like watching an auto race where the entire field has flat tires and half the field doesn't even choose to paint their cars anymore.

To be Fair Re roll able 2+ Cover saves Can be countered pretty easily with various flavors of ignore cover and in CC.

Actually this codex makes my army viable again. The only thing odd about it is that the army got renamed to Dark angels instead of Dark eldar but oh well time to dust off some bikers and raiders!

 Desubot wrote:
To be Fair Re roll able 2+ Cover saves Can be countered pretty easily with various flavors of ignore cover and in CC.

Markerlights say hi o/

I kind of feel like they're starting to buff different factions across the board, and like a lot of the things that seem broken when they arrive (like wraithknights) have counters to them introduced in the next wave (like grav weapons). I think a lot of "7.5 edition" design is actually making the game more fun and strategic. I think GW is doing a terrible job of communicating that to people, though, and I think the way they're going about this edition upgrade cycle is leaving a lot of faction loyalists in the dust.

I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that, say, a lifelong Chaos player, isn't going to go out and pick up the new Space Marines or Eldar as allies, just because they featured the models in White Dwarf.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Maybe less people are buying the Codexes and actually can be bothered any more?

Yeah, while it would be good that GW could at least be consistent with the strength level of its codices (even if that level is off the charts), I've just found myself no longer interested in the game. I'm keeping my armies (downsized a bit) and hoping to get games in with some earlier editions, but otherwise I think people are just jumping off the bus. Which is the final step of all of this- at some point those who are complaining are going to give up. As another poster once said: "The opposite of love is not hate. It is apathy."

I think it is because the Eldar codex represented a significant paradigm shift. Up until then the meta of 40k was a bunch of bad codexes with 2-3 really good ones and one that is completely broken. Now that there have been two completely broken codices along with some good ones from the AdMech I believe people are waking up to the new paradigm of 40k where everything is cheese and laden with dozens of special rules.

Indeed you only get angry at something if you care enough about it already for it to bother you.

I've actually seen many real life relationships follow this trend in married couples at how it correlates to the gaming industry is a bit eery.

When one spouse begins participating in a behavior(s) that disrupt the relationship the other spouse usually will respond in any number of ways such as anger, sadness, etc. So long as these feelings are there then their is still a good chance of saving the relationship. However if the treatment goes on for long enough then the spouse under emotional stress will eventually 'tire' of feeling that way and stops caring completely and it is at this point that the relationship has little to no chance of being saved. The time period varies. It can be as little as 6 months to as long as 3 years, but EVERYONE has a breaking point.

Of course the trend doesn't directly relate( hopefully no one here ( or anywhere else) secretly sends love notes to GW while that they wrote in blood while sitting at their shrine of korhne sacricing their neighbors skull as a tribute to.... Wait what was I talking about again?)

I guess GW is just pushing to see how long before its customers break permanently.

what makes the Black Knights damn good for assault is that they charge, you get no Overwatch if they start near the darkshroud (plus they gain 3" to charge range with Sammael warlord trait), and do their damage. They can then hit and run that turn because with a rerollable 2+ cover save, they don't care much about your shooting (unless loaded with ignores cover). If you assault them, the Land Speeder support squadron just rapes you. next turn, rinse and repeat.

 bullyboy wrote:
what makes the Black Knights damn good for assault is that they charge, you get no Overwatch if they start near the darkshroud (plus they gain 3" to charge range with Sammael warlord trait), and do their damage. They can then hit and run that turn because with a rerollable 2+ cover save, they don't care much about your shooting (unless loaded with ignores cover). If you assault them, the Land Speeder support squadron just rapes you. next turn, rinse and repeat.

Hang on whats the relevant formation rules here?

Why no Over watch and LS support fire?