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Since they lost their Haywire grenades they just don't have the same flavour that they did (Because I used to use for the Haywire), and with Kabalites being so good (at least in my experience).

Question is are they still tactically sound?

Short answer: no.

Long answer: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

In the last codex, they were only used in 5-strong squads for Haywire. Having lost that, there's basically nothing they can do well. You'd be better off allying with Eldar and putting Banshees in your raiders if you want to run an assault DE army.

So yeah, counts-as Banshees.

In my opinion, a truly Wych based DE army hasn't been competitive for either of the last two books.

The original Wych cult was effective in assault while neutralizing the offensive capabilities of enemy assault troops (invulnerable save, enemies swung at 1/2 weapon skill, and enemies didn't get bonus attacks from extra CCW). Additionally, each unit could have 2 Blasters at 5pts each, so they were a threat in shooting to vehicles, monstrous creatures, and heavy infantry.

Ever since the second full DE codex came out, Wyches were really only good for suicidal tank hunting in small squads. Now, they're not really even good for that. That's probably the biggest travesty with the last two DE books; the greatest gladiatorial combatants in the universe really aren't any good at close combat.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:

Question is are they still tactically sound?

In no way, shape, fashion, or form. Wyches are now fit to do but two things: suck and die.

I know that a pure Wych army cannot work; that much is obvious.

My question is whether Wyches have any sort of effective role. Could, for example, they be used as an escort for a close-combat HQ?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
I know that a pure Wych army cannot work; that much is obvious.

My question is whether Wyches have any sort of effective role. Could, for example, they be used as an escort for a close-combat HQ?

No. Hands down, they are one of the most useless units in our codex. I'm a big fan of trying to find ways to use under-appreciated units, but after extensive work, list building, theorizing, and playtesting, I've come to the inescapable conclusion that wyches (along with mandrakes and hellions) are complete garbage.

Literally the only reason wyches are even worth discussing is Highlander tournaments. Since some events force you to take a unit of them, the topic at least bears discussing. (They went into it at length on the Splintermind podcast.)

 TheNewBlood wrote:


My question is whether Wyches have any sort of effective role. Could, for example, they be used as an escort for a close-combat HQ?

For that, my friend, we have Incubi in all their glory.

Okay. I am somewhat disappointed, in that I really liked the look of the Wych models and they have great lore behind them. I do know that Incubi are quite lethal.

What are good assault units for Dark Eldar that aren't Wyches or Incubi?

Grotesques.

Grotesques and Talos. Grotesques are just amazing. They can function in units of 3-4 in a Raider, as a bodyguard, or on foot (coming out of a Webway portal with an HQ) in units of larger size. (The 'Grotbomb') When fielded as part of the Grotesquerie formation, they're even better. Talos are also amazing, although more expensive. Either of the formations that include them are viable, too. I prefer both in Covens formations, but on their own in a Dark Eldar CAD, they are still quite good.

In terms of gain/loss from the previous codex, Grotesques are the big winners by far. (Hellions unquestionably got the short end of the stick.)

By all means, keep your wych models! I'm converting mine into Harlequins. (It pretty much just takes a mask...) And if the most cynical of us proves to be correct, the next codex will make them into the best unit in the dex, in order to get people who started DE since 7th to buy more models.

I don't have any full models yet, but I do have the Dark Eldar codex. I am seriously planning a Dark Eldar army once my Eldar are reworked fully for the current codex. I do think that DE can do well in assault with certain units, if a proper balance is achieved between shooting and assault.

In addition to what others have suggested, Reavers seem like they have good potential, better than Hellions at least. Wracks and Haemonculi seem nasty in CC with their Coven formations.

By all means, feel free to correct me if I am misguided or misunderstanding something.

Reavers can be decent too. I keep forgetting them because my own results have been disappointing (although statistically unlikely).

Wracks and haemonculi, on the other hand, are less awesome. I do like haemmies, especially with scissorhands, but outside of the Scarlet Epicurean, or better yet the Scalpel Squadron, they just dont deliver the goods. The change to poison in 7th ed (they will essentially never get their reroll to wound, not on anything that matters) coupled with the nerfing of the liquifier guns and the coven special weapons, make wracks an okay, but suboptimal, choice. I find they work best in five man teams in Venoms, only hopping out to assault things while performing clean-up duty on already crippled units.

 Thariinye wrote:
In the last codex, they were only used in 5-strong squads for Haywire. Having lost that, there's basically nothing they can do well. You'd be better off allying with Eldar and putting Banshees in your raiders if you want to run an assault DE army.

+1

Having great success with an Eldar melee aspect shrine, 1 unit of scorpions, 2 unit of banshees, the banshees get fast slot raiders and one of them accompanies my misery glaive succubus or a duskblade shadowfield archon.


Tried wyches, only for an agonizer hekatrix. And verdict was: I could have done more damage with more shooty kabalites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Reavers can be decent too. I keep forgetting them because my own results have been disappointing (although statistically unlikely).

Reavers are unpredictable. Add the poison table, and they get even more unpredictable.
For me they either suck and are not worth the points.
Or they just become berserk, unkillable, sweeping hordes and do incredible things.

Wracks and haemonculi, on the other hand, are less awesome. I do like haemmies, especially with scissorhands, but outside of the Scarlet Epicurean, or better yet the Scalpel Squadron, they just dont deliver the goods. The change to poison in 7th ed (they will essentially never get their reroll to wound, not on anything that matters) coupled with the nerfing of the liquifier guns and the coven special weapons, make wracks an okay, but suboptimal, choice. I find they work best in five man teams in Venoms, only hopping out to assault things while performing clean-up duty on already crippled units.

Using haemi only in Dark Artisan.
Any other time he was just Meh!

Had great successes with wracks in Scalpel Squadron, but not as melee, but armed with a hexrifle and an ossefactor.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
I know that a pure Wych army cannot work; that much is obvious.

My question is whether Wyches have any sort of effective role. Could, for example, they be used as an escort for a close-combat HQ?

The problem is that we don't have a close combat power-house HQ. S3 T3 has to go a long way to be useful in close combat. Shadow field adds some durability, but you just can't get around the lack of punching power.
What are you trying to accomplish with the HQ? Loaded to the gills, you get an HQ that can take out an enemy sergeant, but will more often that not get toasted by enemy HQ's.
We just have no way to wound on better than 4+ and still bypass armor. Our combat relic is a pistol; while every other faction gets a multitude of melee weapons.

So, trying to gear up for combat is a steep uphill battle. I find that I do better with either a super cheap HQ (not bothering to go melee) or just take advantage of the 2++, stick him in a T5 squad and tank some hits.

I'm still hoping we see a wych cult sub-dex at some point.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:


I'm still hoping we see a wych cult sub-dex at some point.

Honestly, that right there would probably the only thing GW could do to get me playing 40K again....

Wytches, unfortunately, are inferior at almost every metric to Storm Guardians. Let that sink in

Tyrpak wrote:

Reavers are unpredictable. Add the poison table, and they get even more unpredictable.

Yeah, I tend to find the same.

Sometimes they're amazing, sometimes they just don't do anything.

The sad thing is, they're still in our top-5 units...

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

The problem is that we don't have a close combat power-house HQ. S3 T3 has to go a long way to be useful in close combat. Shadow field adds some durability, but you just can't get around the lack of punching power.

Let's be honest - Shadowfield is a joke. Our T3 HQs pay 66% of their base cost for a 2++ save that vanishes the first time it fails. In contrast, potentially-T5 4-wound SM models pay 7% of their base cost for a 3++ that never goes away.

What's worse is that our weapons are absolute garbage. The purpose of glass-cannon HQs is that they should hit really hard, but not be able to take much punishment back. But, no, ours have to be fragile and pathetic in combat. I guess HQs that are actually worth a damn is a privilege reserved for other armies.

Hell, even our support HQ is about as much use as attaching a cheese sandwich to a squad.

Saldiven wrote:
In my opinion, a truly Wych based DE army hasn't been competitive for either of the last two books.

The original Wych cult was effective in assault while neutralizing the offensive capabilities of enemy assault troops (invulnerable save, enemies swung at 1/2 weapon skill, and enemies didn't get bonus attacks from extra CCW). Additionally, each unit could have 2 Blasters at 5pts each, so they were a threat in shooting to vehicles, monstrous creatures, and heavy infantry.

Ever since the second full DE codex came out, Wyches were really only good for suicidal tank hunting in small squads. Now, they're not really even good for that. That's probably the biggest travesty with the last two DE books; the greatest gladiatorial combatants in the universe really aren't any good at close combat.

Yes you are right genestealers are awful at close combat. Oh wait you are talking about wyches...I think stealers are still worse off. It is like a 1A and 1AA...

I think Wyches are better at reaching combat (simply due to having open-topped transports available).

However, Genestealers are much better at actually doing something in combat.

And if you're fighting something S6+, that one failure is fatal.

 NightWrench wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
In my opinion, a truly Wych based DE army hasn't been competitive for either of the last two books.

The original Wych cult was effective in assault while neutralizing the offensive capabilities of enemy assault troops (invulnerable save, enemies swung at 1/2 weapon skill, and enemies didn't get bonus attacks from extra CCW). Additionally, each unit could have 2 Blasters at 5pts each, so they were a threat in shooting to vehicles, monstrous creatures, and heavy infantry.

Ever since the second full DE codex came out, Wyches were really only good for suicidal tank hunting in small squads. Now, they're not really even good for that. That's probably the biggest travesty with the last two DE books; the greatest gladiatorial combatants in the universe really aren't any good at close combat.

Yes you are right genestealers are awful at close combat. Oh wait you are talking about wyches...I think stealers are still worse off. It is like a 1A and 1AA...

I remember when Genestealers were the only unit in the game I was leery of assaulting with my Wyches....