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 Mordred wrote:
terminator means deathwing but deathwing doesnt always mean terminator.

succinct and to the point

Oh, ok. in that case it really doesn't make sense to pay points for it.
But that makes me wonder, is there any benefit to being deathwing AND ravenwing? Since they already come with deathwing, giving them a bike would mean they have both.

Or do you simply replace deathwing with ravenwing?

We have played it that you get both.

RW is specific to riding on a Bike and the rule only impacts Bikes, speeders, and flyers. Fluff wise , most deathwing served in the RW so are very skilled at Bike riding and should be granted the rerollable jink. It would be even more awesome if they also give them skilled rider.

riburn3 wrote:
We have played it that you get both.

RW is specific to riding on a Bike and the rule only impacts Bikes, speeders, and flyers. Fluff wise , most deathwing served in the RW so are very skilled at Bike riding and should be granted the rerollable jink. It would be even more awesome if they also give them skilled rider.

Most?
That is pushing it.

Out of the 9 companies (besides DW) that have chaplains, only 1 is mounted on a bike. This would assume that only 1/9 of the chaplains promoted to interrogator chaplains would have ravenwing training.
I also seriously doubt most librarians would have had Ravenwing training. Techmarines? Again....very, very few. In fact, I'd go as far as to say hardly any DW members have Ravenwing training.

The way I plan to play it is that a Chaplain gets the Ravenwing rule. Librarians, Interrogator Chaplains and Techs can ride their bikes in the RWSF but do not get to reroll jink saves. (and my primary force is ravenwing!)

Play it however you want. My local group has already fixed the problem easily and I don't really care to argue rules from a fluff perspective, although I get where you're coming from.

I've already made sure to spam the GW FAQ email system with all these questions so hopefully we get some response soon.

riburn3 wrote:
Play it however you want. My local group has already fixed the problem easily and I don't really care to argue rules from a fluff perspective, although I get where you're coming from.

I've already made sure to spam the GW FAQ email system with all these questions so hopefully we get some response soon.

yeah, I wonder how many emails they got this weekend, yikes.

 bullyboy wrote:

riburn3 wrote:
We have played it that you get both.

RW is specific to riding on a Bike and the rule only impacts Bikes, speeders, and flyers. Fluff wise , most deathwing served in the RW so are very skilled at Bike riding and should be granted the rerollable jink. It would be even more awesome if they also give them skilled rider.

Most?
That is pushing it.

Not really pushing it at all. The new Codex, at least, make a big point about how each brother is initiated into deeper and deeper circles of secret knowledge as they advance, not just from Devastator to Assault to Tactical, but also from company to company. A Tactical in the 3rd company know more than a tactical in the 4th company. And the Ravenwing is also a test of how unwavering their dedication is to the chapter, before advancing even further.

It is absolutely clear in the fluff that all deathwing members are supposed to have progressed through the ravenwing. There are examples where this has been skipped, but they are (if there is even more than one) exceptions to rule

Could be future proofing.

The ravenwing part of the codex was very poorly written the HQ issue is still the same. Nowhere in the book does it say that giving a chaplain or libby a bike gives them the ravenwing special rule. As such I would wait until an FAQ if it comes, to deal with the issue.

Moreover, they seem to always want to make you take Sammy because he is the Master of the Ravenwing.

In the last book you had to take him because he was the only one that made bikes troops, chaplians did not, neither did libbies. So my therory, is Sammy will be required in the formation, and they will make it so you can take a lib or a chap in addition to him.

Though I could be wrong, but as it stands if you run the formation you can only take sammy and no other HQ's in that formation, and from my understanding of things you can't take flyers either.

Great Job on the codex GW, you guys are heros, maybe they should have taken a few more weeks to work over this thing, instead of releasing it right after the standard marine codex.

Anyway, keep any eye for an FAQ or play unbound, which is what I might consider doing from this point on.

Anyway best of luck,

 bullyboy wrote:

riburn3 wrote:
We have played it that you get both.

RW is specific to riding on a Bike and the rule only impacts Bikes, speeders, and flyers. Fluff wise , most deathwing served in the RW so are very skilled at Bike riding and should be granted the rerollable jink. It would be even more awesome if they also give them skilled rider.

Most?
That is pushing it.

Out of the 9 companies (besides DW) that have chaplains, only 1 is mounted on a bike. This would assume that only 1/9 of the chaplains promoted to interrogator chaplains would have ravenwing training.
I also seriously doubt most librarians would have had Ravenwing training. Techmarines? Again....very, very few. In fact, I'd go as far as to say hardly any DW members have Ravenwing training.

The way I plan to play it is that a Chaplain gets the Ravenwing rule. Librarians, Interrogator Chaplains and Techs can ride their bikes in the RWSF but do not get to reroll jink saves. (and my primary force is ravenwing!)

So they have some of the finest riders in the known universe but are too busy praying to pass that knowledge on to their brothers?

Page 14 of the codex says "the Ravenwing comprises the finest riders and pilots their chapter has to offer". So how do they find out who should be Ravenwing?

Yes, all librarians have the Deathwing rule as standard but fluff wise, we know that nobody is told the whole truth in a swift manner. Some librarians must be at a stage of their training where they could help in combat but not be privy to all the secrets.

None of the companies have specific librarians listed as attached to them (not even Deathwing) and nowhere in the fluff is there anything to support the idea librarians have all fought as part of the Deathwing. So when did they learn to use terminator armour?

Rules wise GW put in all those HQ slots for a reason. I'm guessing it wasn't so we could fill all of them with chaplains. This also wouldn't fit with the company org from the codex.

All of this is meaningless until GW change the rules of course. either you play with just Sam (RAW) or you come to some arrangement with those you play against. Personally we decided they get the ravenwing rule. I like the idea that the DarkAngels would know an HQ was going to be riding a bike and give him the extra training.

That said I can see how the other house rules listed here can be justified. Find something you can agree on and don't let it ruin your fun.

Maybe the first rule of Ravenwing clubs is "You do not talk about Ravenwing club."

I would like someone to point to me the fluff where all marines go through Ravenwing before going into Deathwing. It might be new fluff but I haven't seen it. The ravenwing are the assault/recon strikeforce and as far as I know don't recruit from the other battle companies. I believe they take recruits directly to train in their type of warfare. As for Librarians, they are all Inner Circle and this is part of the "Deathwing" company according tot he "new" fluff. Doesn't mean they are terminator trained as such.
As it stands, GW can change fluff with each book, so who knows where we stand currently.

As for ravenwing training, you think passing on a few pointers to a librarian riding a bike somehow equates to years in the Ravenwing? A librarian might be able to ride a bike, but he is no biker in a class with the Ravenwing.

Librarians are all inner circle so listed as part of the Deathwing. But nowhere in the fluff is there any evidence that they have risen through the ranks as normal marines do so no, they may not all have fought in TDA.

As for a few pointers on riding a bike, no I don't think that would be the same. but lets not forget the life span of a marine. Given that they are part of the inner circle they are hardly going to be young men (the dark angels would never trust anyone who had not been tested for years if not decades). Plenty of time to fit in some proper extra training not just a few pointers.

Ah but they would be busy with psi stuff right? Well chaplains would be busy too but at least one find the time to be RW.

Never seen any evidence to support the idea that RW take recruits directly. Would seem a little daft if you only got the chance to show you could ride when starting out in the chapter. Think of the talent they could be missing out on.

Sounds like the UK's education system!

 bullyboy wrote:


Out of the 9 companies (besides DW) that have chaplains, only 1 is mounted on a bike. This would assume that only 1/9 of the chaplains promoted to interrogator chaplains would have ravenwing training.
I also seriously doubt most librarians would have had Ravenwing training. Techmarines? Again....very, very few. In fact, I'd go as far as to say hardly any DW members have Ravenwing training.

The way I plan to play it is that a Chaplain gets the Ravenwing rule. Librarians, Interrogator Chaplains and Techs can ride their bikes in the RWSF but do not get to reroll jink saves. (and my primary force is ravenwing!)

How many of those chaplains do you think(and things break down here) advanced to the ravenwing and/or beyond before being inducted into the Reclusiam? Chaplains start as normal marines, unlike librarians.

From a fluff standpoint...if you're a Dark Angel leader and you're thinking "I'm gonna take a bike into battle today", you've likely been hanging out with the RW at some point in your life. I would imagine an HQ biker would likely be a bit more seasoned of a rider than your standard rank and file 2nd company biker. I doubt a librarian wakes up one day and thinks "Im gonna hop on that bike and give it a whirl for giggles".

 Jazzhands wrote:
Librarians are all inner circle so listed as part of the Deathwing. But nowhere in the fluff is there any evidence that they have risen through the ranks as normal marines do so no, they may not all have fought in TDA.

As for a few pointers on riding a bike, no I don't think that would be the same. but lets not forget the life span of a marine. Given that they are part of the inner circle they are hardly going to be young men (the dark angels would never trust anyone who had not been tested for years if not decades). Plenty of time to fit in some proper extra training not just a few pointers.

Ah but they would be busy with psi stuff right? Well chaplains would be busy too but at least one find the time to be RW.

Never seen any evidence to support the idea that RW take recruits directly. Would seem a little daft if you only got the chance to show you could ride when starting out in the chapter. Think of the talent they could be missing out on.

Sounds like the UK's education system!

let me ask you, the battle companies of other chapters train recruits to ride bikes, land speeders and attack bikes right? Same with the Ravenwing, but instead of being spread throughout the chapter, they are amassed in one company. I think that in the old fluff, Caliban had many knights and this provided them with the mounted knowledge to be expert riders on bikes etc.
It's really no different from other areas of the chapter. Some recruits are trained as devatsators, assault or tac marines. Ravenwing memebers are trained in bikes and speeders, I do not believe they came from other companies first. A standard DA marine from the Battle companies advances to a veteran which is where the deathwing recruit from. Ravenwing seem to be exclusive, which would make it understandable why they are so good...it's all they do and all they have ever done. If there were bikes and speeders in combat companies then it would give a reasonable advancement system to Ravenwing, but that doesn't exist.
I don't think a Librarian could expect that kind of training, but should at least know how to use a bike. Certainly he would not be as proficient as a biker from another chapter and they do not get special bonuses (unless scars). The Ravenwing Chaplain might be an exception as he is completely embedded within the company and leads them into battle.

No bike Libby's,chapter masters,tech marines and chaplains. As well as no flyers in the raven wing formation.......yea dumb

zedsdead wrote:
No bike Libby's,chapter masters,tech marines and chaplains. As well as no flyers in the raven wing formation.......yea dumb

not sure why you are having a problem with flyers, both have the Ravenwing rule

 bullyboy wrote:

zedsdead wrote:
No bike Libby's,chapter masters,tech marines and chaplains. As well as no flyers in the raven wing formation.......yea dumb

not sure why you are having a problem with flyers, both have the Ravenwing rule

some people are taking "deploy normally" to mean during the deployment pre game step, as opposed to coming on from reserves, which is deploying normally for flyers

Yes we really need an FAQ!

I'll throw this out there.
What if instead of granting the RW rule with the bikes (which in my opinion is a bit too much), you just have the detachment restriction changed to: "Can only have RW models/units or ICs with a bike"

Looks clean no?

Why would it be too much? Ravenwing is ravenwing. Every rank and file biker, every speeder, every flyer has this rule, it is not unreasonable for their leaders to have the rule too. Their company master has it, why is it weird for the rest of the leadership to have it? Seems like splitting hairs to me.

I think the Ravenwing rule needs to be inextricably linked to bikes where Dark Angels are concerned. Other chapters have general access to bikes, but in the Dark Angels only the Ravenwing use bikes and land speeders (and the flyers). No other company has them.

If you see a character on a bike in a Dark Angeks force it isn't another master, chaplain or librarian from another company who chose to take a bike. It's masters, chaplains and librarians already in the Ravenwing company using their usual bike.

EDIT: Librarians aren't attached to the Ravenwing I don't think so they shouldn't get the rule but should still be allowed in the force I think.

The Ravenwing special rule should have been in the Bike entry rather than just referring to the BRB for Bikes. GW is lazy