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On paper this looks great. The Thunderfire Cannon has the Chapter Tactics rule and should benefit from the Storm of Iron warlord trait. This trait gives any unit of the chapter within 12" of the Warlord the rending special rule. Three Thundefire Cannons as a unit will produce 12 small blast templates at str 5 that ignore cover and have rending or str 6 with rending. This should make the Thuderfire Cannon a threat to everything in the game and with bolstered defenses, an added wound to the tech marine and the ability to fire indirectly the Cannons should be very survivable. Has anyone tried this out on the tabletop yet?

Telion and Tigerius have the Storm of Iron trait automatically. The Ultramarine Chief Librarian seems like a no brainier to take with the Cannons to assure getting Storm of Iron and even throw a Prescience on the unit if necessary.

There is a warlord trait that gives ALL CT units within 12" rending?
That's amazing!
Thunderfire cannons are definitely a good shout! How about quad bolters though? 9 of those would put out 48 tl rending shots at only 60pts more and 2 or 3 times the durability.

Only one unit within 12" per turn.

Ahhhh that's far more balanced. Yeh TFC are definitely the best idea then!

The issue of course....rolling the right warlord trait. Even with a reroll you are only looking a 1/3 chance, which isn't a good enough chance to build any sort of battle plan around.

 Carnage43 wrote:
The issue of course....rolling the right warlord trait. Even with a reroll you are only looking a 1/3 chance, which isn't a good enough chance to build any sort of battle plan around.

except Tigurus and Telion get that warlord trait automaticly and are pretty well suited for backfield placement. and if you want a more durable warlord Calgar gets to pick whatever warlord trait he wants cause he's awesome that way

BrianDavion wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
The issue of course....rolling the right warlord trait. Even with a reroll you are only looking a 1/3 chance, which isn't a good enough chance to build any sort of battle plan around.

except Tigurus and Telion get that warlord trait automaticly and are pretty well suited for backfield placement. and if you want a more durable warlord Calgar gets to pick whatever warlord trait he wants cause he's awesome that way

I didn't know that.

That's great for ultramarines. Those are 2 really solid units too.

 Carnage43 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
The issue of course....rolling the right warlord trait. Even with a reroll you are only looking a 1/3 chance, which isn't a good enough chance to build any sort of battle plan around.

except Tigurus and Telion get that warlord trait automaticly and are pretty well suited for backfield placement. and if you want a more durable warlord Calgar gets to pick whatever warlord trait he wants cause he's awesome that way

I didn't know that.

That's great for ultramarines. Those are 2 really solid units too.

I'm really happy with the new SM 'dex as a UM player. most everything is useful to some degree or another, and assuming I use the gladius strike force I've got 6 turns worth of doctrines to use. and IMHO the Ultramarines characters really came out of this better then ever.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm really happy with the new SM 'dex as a UM player. most everything is useful to some degree or another, and assuming I use the gladius strike force I've got 6 turns worth of doctrines to use. and IMHO the Ultramarines characters really came out of this better then ever.

Is this my cue to make fun of the bold and blue?
I play BT so I am still not quite finished grumbling yet...

 Talizvar wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm really happy with the new SM 'dex as a UM player. most everything is useful to some degree or another, and assuming I use the gladius strike force I've got 6 turns worth of doctrines to use. and IMHO the Ultramarines characters really came out of this better then ever.

Is this my cue to make fun of the bold and blue?
I play BT so I am still not quite finished grumbling yet...

weren't the BT chapter tactics buffed?

This works incredibly well on TFC. It also works pretty well on units of dakka predators as with rending, tank hunters, and MC hunters they actually start to become dangerous. Full units of Stalkers are also super dangerous with this ability on them.

BTW the BT chapter tactics overall got a sideways movement. The BT did get a buff however as they can now take 5 man units in drop pods with a plasmagun and grav cannon. Those units can pretty effectively shred MC, light vehicles, and 3+ or better armour save units. They are surprisingly effective even though salvo makes the cannon only 3 shots. They are also ObjSec and get even better at shooting if you leave the unit alone.

Preds don't have CT do they?

Storm of Fire targets 1 unit drawn from the same Chapter as the warlord.
If you claim that predators in an Ultra Marine formation are not Ultra Marines, than they cannot be taken at all.

Thunderfire is good, but I like my dreadnoughts.
Unit of 3 dreads is 12 twin-linked 48" range S7 rending shots.

Too bad I hate ultra marines...

Page 189 of the Space Marine Codex describes what can be included in a chapter and that only models with the chapter tactics special rule can benefit from some certain rules. It's a little confusing so to error on the side of caution I'll say the unit must have the Chapter Tactics special rule to benefit from Storm of Iron.

Regardless of that, I think the TFC gets a bigger boost with Storm of Iron then Dreadnoughts for two reasons.

1). The TFC can fire indirectly and hit units the Drads can't see.

2). The TFC can fire ignores cover shots which can have a dramatic impact on armies that heavily relay on cover or cover improving psychic powers.

And also 12 tl barrage blasts are going to hit a lot more models than 12 tl autocannon shots. Can also 'walk' your blasts around due to barrage AND snipe out certain models.
Ansacs makes a VERY good point though that monster hunter and tank hunter greatly benefit rending. Sicaran with schism of mars or war on murder proves this consistently.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Page 189 of the Space Marine Codex describes what can be included in a chapter and that only models with the chapter tactics special rule can benefit from some certain rules. It's a little confusing so to error on the side of caution I'll say the unit must have the Chapter Tactics special rule to benefit from Storm of Iron.

Regardless of that, I think the TFC gets a bigger boost with Storm of Iron then Dreadnoughts for two reasons.

1). The TFC can fire indirectly and hit units the Drads can't see.

2). The TFC can fire ignores cover shots which can have a dramatic impact on armies that heavily relay on cover or cover improving psychic powers.

TFC does not have chapter tactics, the tech marine gunner does. According to page 189, all models (not units) from a given Chapter benefit from that Chapter's Chapter Tactics rules...
If you take the stance, must have chapter tactics for Storm of Fire, then the tech marine gains rending, while the thunder fire cannon does not.
If that is the stance, best use of this would become Heavy Bolter/Hurricane Bolter Grav Centurions. Cranking out up to 9 shots each, (54 shots for a full unit), is a decent amount of dakka for 330 points. If you go IF, you get tank hunter, which is pretty rad with rending. And nobody would expect HB centurions. Of course, that means you're rolling your warlord trait and hoping to get Storm of Fire.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm really happy with the new SM 'dex as a UM player. most everything is useful to some degree or another, and assuming I use the gladius strike force I've got 6 turns worth of doctrines to use. and IMHO the Ultramarines characters really came out of this better then ever.

Is this my cue to make fun of the bold and blue?
I play BT so I am still not quite finished grumbling yet...

weren't the BT chapter tactics buffed?

Debatable, and regardless they're atill not good.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

TFC does not have chapter tactics, the tech marine gunner does. According to page 189, all models (not units) from a given Chapter benefit from that Chapter's Chapter Tactics rules...
If you take the stance, must have chapter tactics for Storm of Fire, then the tech marine gains rending, while the thunder fire cannon does not.

I can see where you're coming from, but isn't the TFC a model too? I mean, it's not like it's a real working cannon (sadly).

 Aben Zin wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

TFC does not have chapter tactics, the tech marine gunner does. According to page 189, all models (not units) from a given Chapter benefit from that Chapter's Chapter Tactics rules...
If you take the stance, must have chapter tactics for Storm of Fire, then the tech marine gains rending, while the thunder fire cannon does not.

I can see where you're coming from, but isn't the TFC a model too? I mean, it's not like it's a real working cannon (sadly).

Yes, the TFC is a model. So is a land raider, and so is a Tactical Marine.
But only one of those three has chapter tactics.

Doesn't artillery inherit special rules from the shooter?

That was badly worded. If the shooter has the special rule rending, on him not one of his weapons, the cannon would confer rending while he was shooting it

Matt has it right. You can't claim a thunderfire canon gains the benefit while preds would not. It's one or the other, but since you can't field none chapter units it's a no brainer IMO. One can be a member of a chapter while not having chapter tactics, otherwise you are disallowed form fielding them at all.

The TFC will gain the benefit while the predator does not because the Techmarine, which has Chapter Tactics, is firing the TFC. That is why an Imperial Fists Devastator's lascannon gets tank hunter when he fires it. The Lascannon entry in the MRB does not say it has tank hunter and the IF chapter tactics gives the IF Dev the tank hunter ability. When he fires his lascannon it gets tank hunting just like when the Techmarine fires his weapon ( the TFC) it gets any benefit the Techmarine is under like rending. That is why the TFC would benefit from Chapter tactics and a unit like the predator, which has no character or model with the chapter tactics rule firing it, would not.

Page 189 of codex space marines

"... in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given chapter."

Since predator do not have the chapter tactics rule, yes they can be part of the chapter, but they DO NOT benefit from the chapter tactics rule.

Now the question is whether Storm of Iron will only affect models with the chapter tactics rule or not. I'm not sure about that myself. Why use the word chapter instead of detachment in describing who benefits from storm of iron?

Easy answer for your last question - they use the word chapter rather than detachment in case you take two detachments of the same chapter (say a CAD and a Gladius). So units from either detachment can benefit.

DarthDiggler wrote:
The TFC will gain the benefit while the predator does not because the Techmarine, which has Chapter Tactics, is firing the TFC. That is why an Imperial Fists Devastator's lascannon gets tank hunter when he fires it. The Lascannon entry in the MRB does not say it has tank hunter and the IF chapter tactics gives the IF Dev the tank hunter ability.

A lascannon is not a model, the TFC is.
Tank Hunters only requires 1 model in the unit to have the rule for all to benefit.

The artillery rules are fairly vague on the topic. One crewmen within 2" of the gun can fire it, when firing the guns, there must be line of sight to the target from both the gun model and the crewman firing it (unless they are Barrage weapons, of course). Ranges are measured from the barrel on the gun model.
No indication of special rules jumping from one model to the other.

Thanks for the sloppy chapter tactics rules GW.
It's pretty hard to say what was intended. Is an ultramarine predator part of the ultramarine chapter, just because it was bought in a detachment with ultramarines? If so, then you run into a huge problem with Legion of the Damned, who are clearly not in any way ultra marines.

It would have been nice to see the Legion get a specific exemption from the chapter, and have everything else count as part of the chapter, and then had only models with the chapter tactics rules benefit from the tactics. That's how I'll be playing it, but still, simple rule writing to fix an obvious problem.

I guess I am thinking the TFC is like a quad gun behind an aegis defense line, which is also a model with a stat line all to itself like the TFC. Dark Reaper Exarch would routinely man the Quad Gun to confer his fast shot and tank hunter on the gun and shoot at flyers. That's why I think the Techmarine easily confers any of his abilities to the TFC he fires, just like the Dark Reaper Exarch on the quad gun.

It just says from the same chapter, in other places it specifically mentions chapter tactics. I would say vehicles and the like still benefit

If the argument is made that Storm of Iron can effect vehicles (which tbf, if it says chapter not chapter tactics, I would side with this interpretation). Then 3 whirlwinds in a squadron for 3 5" st5 ap4 barrage rending shred ordnance blasts would be supreme for 195pts. It will decimate infantry of all types and have a very good chance at penning/glancing vehicles with side armour of 10 (56% chance for each blast) and a decent chance of penning/glancing vehicles with a side armour of 11 or 12 (31% chance for each blast). If a whirlwind gets knocked out - just revert to the TFCs.