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 zgort wrote:
Wait - someone has RW and DOESN'T want Sammael? But...why? Also - pretty sure he was never in the Deathwing, as he was appointed company master when the last ravenwing master croaked. Second company works as a separate path for promotions. The best head to Black Knights instead of Deathwing. Unless the fluff changed in the new dex?

Sammael is over pointed and therefore cuts down on extra RW stuff I can add to my force.

Sammael is in the Inner Circle and therefore gets the "Deathwing" rule. (in an indirect manner). That's the unfortunate part of this codex is that they've basically indicated that Inner Circle = Deathwing. Inner Circle have knowledge on the Fallen, this is why they get the Hatred CSM rule.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

Clarence wrote:
I'm in the meh category mainly due to the rules errors/weirdness. Bikes don't come with bolters (in the digital rulebook,) the only Ravenwing HQ is Sammael, Company Masters still can't take bikes (though they are allowed Terminator armour...etc.)

Because bikes belong to the 2nd company and they have a company master by the name of Sammael?

Yeah except Sammael can't be everywhere that ravenwing forces are deployed every time. In those instances it makes perfect sense for a captain, chaplain or even a librarian to lead the representatives of the 2nd company in Sammael's stead. Also you have the final point where the book also covers the DA successor chapters as well which do not have Sammael, and also might want a different take on the company master for the formation. I've never liked Sammael in my lists as he is stupidly overpriced and I have never liked the model.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
People say the book is good, but I'm still not seeing it. My interest in DA lies solely with Deathwing which still blow, from what I can tell, so...meh.

Yay.

Yeah my DA force is also Deathwing with a single Ravenwing squad (6 bikes, landspeeder and attack bike) in it. Their job was rush forward with the teleport homers and then have the Deathwing drop in where desired. Have no interest in the Ravenwing wave that everyone is so thrilled about. Glad to hear that the Deathwing still appear to be pretty uninspiring.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

Clarence wrote:
I'm in the meh category mainly due to the rules errors/weirdness. Bikes don't come with bolters (in the digital rulebook,) the only Ravenwing HQ is Sammael, Company Masters still can't take bikes (though they are allowed Terminator armour...etc.)

Because bikes belong to the 2nd company and they have a company master by the name of Sammael?

Yeah except Sammael can't be everywhere that ravenwing forces are deployed every time. In those instances it makes perfect sense for a captain, chaplain or even a librarian to lead the representatives of the 2nd company in Sammael's stead. Also you have the final point where the book also covers the DA successor chapters as well which do not have Sammael, and also might want a different take on the company master for the formation. I've never liked Sammael in my lists as he is stupidly overpriced and I have never liked the model.

Skriker

But that's not how it works. Just as Cato Sicarius is the captain of the ultramarine 2nd company, Sammael is the captain of the Dark Angels 2nd company. Dark Angels just call their captains Company Masters to be different. You're not going to get another Captain to lead Sicarius' company just as you aren't going to get Company Master Balthazar to lead the 2nd Company. It makes perfect sense that no other Master would ride a bike as only the 2nd company has them and uses them.

They can wear terminator armor because in order to become a Company Master they need to go through the ranks and become a member of the Deathwing. When someone makes it to the deathwing they are a member for life and may choose to wear the terminator armor they earned from being a member there whenever they wish. Therefore, access to terminator armor.

The only exception to this I believe is the Ravenwing, which I am fairly sure someone can go from Ravenwing biker to Black Knight to CompNy Master without going to the Deathwing.

Hence it makes sense why Chapter Masters can have terminator armor but not ride a bike. They are members of the Deathwing but not the Ravenwing. Librarians and Chaplains can ride bikes because they are attached to a unit that rides them.

I can't be the only one who reads the fluffy pages fully.

That all being said, I still support allowing a Company Master the bike option simply to represent successor chapters.

I can't talk about their power on the table yet, as I haven't played game with the new codex yet.

But I am very happy with the actual codex. A couple things here and there that pinch me a bit like not having the Banner of Devastation anymore (some would probably argue that it was too powerful anyway).

For the list I was planning on using before the codex came out, there is only a couple difference. Replaced a Imperial Knight by Landspeeder formation, went from 2 5man Command squad to 1 6man. Went from 14 regular biker to 16. Replaced some Meltas by Gravgun.

The rest is the same and it's probably going to be played the same way I think. scout + move to isolated 1-3 squads. Keep all my units together. And blast everything to pieces to mitigate the return of fire.

@Thread
Does vengeful strike work on venerable dreadnoughts? It appears it does but it is listed with the armours which would indicate it should just work on terminators. If it does ven dread armies could be a thing and be pretty good.

Skriker wrote:Yay.

Yeah my DA force is also Deathwing with a single Ravenwing squad (6 bikes, landspeeder and attack bike) in it. Their job was rush forward with the teleport homers and then have the Deathwing drop in where desired. Have no interest in the Ravenwing wave that everyone is so thrilled about. Glad to hear that the Deathwing still appear to be pretty uninspiring.

Skriker

Actually people that played the deathwing like they say to in the fluff; ie with ravenwing scouting to find the fallen and the deathwing teleporting down to capture should be pretty happy with this codex. Those ravenwing units you started on the board to try and get homers in range are now hard enough to kill to actually do so. You also get to choose to pass or fail your reserves rolls with deathwing when you have a ravenwing force to guide them in. Thus you can wait until something can be done about that riptide with interceptor before you DS a unit of ravenwing in with a perfect large blast sized formation.

The deathwing only got 2 real nerfs (no ObjSec and no turn 1 DS) and a number of buffs (lowered cost, better support, ven dreads +1 attack, not having to take Belial). Unfortunately it made a lot of the pure deathwing player's unable to play their current armies. Though it is kind of strange as this really wasn't possible until the 50% reserves rules were removed and it always struggled a lot to win. Really everything else got better and deathwing stayed about par for the course.

Love it. Though I don't know where I'm gonna get a terminator apotechary for every terminator squad I have.

The deathwing only got 2 real nerfs (no ObjSec and no turn 1 DS) and a number of buffs (lowered cost, better support, ven dreads +1 attack, not having to take Belial). Unfortunately it made a lot of the pure deathwing player's unable to play their current armies. Though it is kind of strange as this really wasn't possible until the 50% reserves rules were removed and it always struggled a lot to win. Really everything else got better and deathwing stayed about par for the course.

And people say female logic is strange. Almost everything got buffs, you just can't play your army anymore.

 Rautakanki wrote:
Love it. Though I don't know where I'm gonna get a terminator apotechary for every terminator squad I have.

Hate to burst your bubble there buddy, but only one DW apothecary per army

 ansacs wrote:

Actually people that played the deathwing like they say to in the fluff; ie with ravenwing scouting to find the fallen and the deathwing teleporting down to capture should be pretty happy with this codex. Those ravenwing units you started on the board to try and get homers in range are now hard enough to kill to actually do so. You also get to choose to pass or fail your reserves rolls with deathwing when you have a ravenwing force to guide them in. Thus you can wait until something can be done about that riptide with interceptor before you DS a unit of ravenwing in with a perfect large blast sized formation.

The deathwing only got 2 real nerfs (no ObjSec and no turn 1 DS) and a number of buffs (lowered cost, better support, ven dreads +1 attack, not having to take Belial). Unfortunately it made a lot of the pure deathwing player's unable to play their current armies. Though it is kind of strange as this really wasn't possible until the 50% reserves rules were removed and it always struggled a lot to win. Really everything else got better and deathwing stayed about par for the course.

My copy of the book came in from GW yesterday and overall I will say that I am a happy camper. My army will pretty much continue to exist as is with the exception that my venerable dread would need to have a drop pod if I want to include it in the Deathwing formation. If not it can easily reside in an Elite slot in my supporting Combined Arms detachment which will hold my scouts, tacticals, vets, landspeeder, contemptor, and vengeance land speeder. So it is all good for me. Can even use all my characters since I can include Belial/my commander in the Deathwing detachment and both my interrogator chaplain and librarian in the CAD. So all good for me. Was afraid I'd need a bunch of changes to use the new book and happy that it is only the drop pod if I want to do so. Loss of ObSec for my termies is annoying, but I'm sure I'll survive. I'll call this one a much needed positive for me from GW. The big gladius equiv detachment I will never use since I had built my army around deathwing before so only have a single unit of DA tactical marines in my army. Oh well. Won't bother me too much.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ignatius wrote:
Librarians and Chaplains can ride bikes because they are attached to a unit that rides them.

I can't be the only one who reads the fluffy pages fully.

That all being said, I still support allowing a Company Master the bike option simply to represent successor chapters.

Yes they can have bikes, but since the don't have the ravenwing special rule they cannot be in the ravenwing strikeforce as an HQ, hence the complaints. Not having had the book when I made my post yesterday I did not have the fluffy pages to read yet, so in that sense of the two of us you were the only one who read it in that exchange.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Librarians and Chaplains can ride bikes because they are attached to a unit that rides them.

I can't be the only one who reads the fluffy pages fully.

That all being said, I still support allowing a Company Master the bike option simply to represent successor chapters.

Yes they can have bikes, but since the don't have the ravenwing special rule they cannot be in the ravenwing strikeforce as an HQ, hence the complaints. Not having had the book when I made my post yesterday I did not have the fluffy pages to read yet, so in that sense of the two of us you were the only one who read it in that exchange.

Skriker

Ah so basically you're telling me that I was off base about what exactly the complaints were. Which, in that case, I'll just go sit in the corner over there

It's not a huge deal for me as I almost always run Sammael on Corvex hence me missing the big complaint almost completely

Which 3 people voted "underpowered"? lol

 Ignatius wrote:

But that's not how it works. Just as Cato Sicarius is the captain of the ultramarine 2nd company, Sammael is the captain of the Dark Angels 2nd company. Dark Angels just call their captains Company Masters to be different. You're not going to get another Captain to lead Sicarius' company just as you aren't going to get Company Master Balthazar to lead the 2nd Company. It makes perfect sense that no other Master would ride a bike as only the 2nd company has them and uses them.

Yeah, just like it's impossible to play the Ultramarines 2nd Company WITHOUT a Cato Sicarius model. That would just absurd, the ability to run the 2nd company with Calgar, Chronus, Tigirius, Cassius, or Telion. Or a generic Chapter Master, Captain, Librarian, Chaplain, or Techmarine. Completely impossible. Rules don't allow it.

DW got heavily nerfed. No more obsec LRs (or obsec at all, I understand?).
No more turn 1 assault (so you have to have something deployed, and then you risk losing to alpha-strike).

RW got some boosts (2+ re-rollable jink save... I am putting template weapons or dark reapers in every army now )

but also lost the rad grenades and the banner of boom.

Upset they couldn't make the DW good. Le sigh.

 Skriker wrote:
Yes they can have bikes, but since the don't have the ravenwing special rule they cannot be in the ravenwing strikeforce as an HQ, hence the complaints.

What's the Ravenwing Strike Force and where can I find it? It doesn't seem to be in my copy of the codex.

I was just thinking that it's weird that there doesn't seem to be any way to field Ravenwing Command Squads or Black Knights as part of a Lion's Blade.

I do like the 2 land speeder formations.

Attack Squadron.

3 bikes, 2 meltas, Attack bike with MM (stays with unit) 150
Land Speeder typhoon 75

Typhoon basically firing 2 missiles as a "marker" for the meltas who now hit at BS 5. Heck, could just go with a HB for 3 shots, doesn't say it has to wound...just hit the target!

So does the speeder squadron formation get shrouded and stealth for every vehicle due to being in the same squadron as a unit with the shrouded rule? Because if so... damn. 2+ save typhoons are pretty sweet

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
Yes they can have bikes, but since the don't have the ravenwing special rule they cannot be in the ravenwing strikeforce as an HQ, hence the complaints.

What's the Ravenwing Strike Force and where can I find it? It doesn't seem to be in my copy of the codex.

I was just thinking that it's weird that there doesn't seem to be any way to field Ravenwing Command Squads or Black Knights as part of a Lion's Blade.

It is after the army list section and before the special rules. A more stand alone take on the Ravenwing.

Skriker

 Silverthorne wrote:
So does the speeder squadron formation get shrouded and stealth for every vehicle due to being in the same squadron as a unit with the shrouded rule? Because if so... damn. 2+ save typhoons are pretty sweet

yep, only one model in a unit needs shrouded, so 2+ reroll jinks for Typhoons.