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Breton wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No. All the Command Benefit would do is allow the unit to be placed in Deep Strike Reserve even though they can't Deep Strike. It doesn't provide them the rules that allows them to Deep Strike.

Then your Codex: Space Marine drop pods do not Deep Strike? The Drop Pod Assault special rule is worded almost exactly the same as this formation vis-à-vis "must enter play via Deep Strike" and Drop Pods do NOT have the Deep Strike USR.

I kind agree
The wording must enter play via Deep Strike is signifying a condition and also, via the BRB, is also a permission.
The exact wording is called out in the BRB: "Sometimes a unit must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

BRB defines Deep Strike Reserve as "telling your opponent that it (read-> units in reserve) will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

It doesn't matter if they have the rule or not, if they are in Deep Strike Reserve they WILL BE arriving by Deep Strike.

Normally you can't put something without Deep Strike in Deep Strike Reserve. However, the detachment explicitly gives you permission to put dedicated transports in the formation, ergo, placed into Deep Strike Reserve.

Land Raider is a dedicated transport -> satisfies Restrictions
Land Raider must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve breaks down into two categories: "must be"-->condition and "Deep Strike Reserve" -->classification. doesn't care about permission, says "must"
Deep Strike Reserve -> WILL BE arriving by Deep Strike --> permission, again doesn't care about unit rules, explicitly says it will.

Holy rambling, Batman...

 Ghaz wrote:
False. Read the rules for Drop Pod Assault:

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

The white text tells us how the unit arrives. Where does Command Benefit tell us how the unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve?

The same deep strike usr that tells us how (not when) the drop pods arrive. It's worded the same basic way. Where do you see the deep strike usr or permission for drop pods that isn't there for this formation?

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm actually not too concerned about the Deathwing rules as I'd take all termies or a few dreads in pods, won't have to worry about buying a Land Raider now.

The Ravenwing is still an annoyance to me as I don't want to take Sammael, that should never be a requirement...not with the new way lists are built.

I agree. You shouldn't have to take the master to field something in the size of the detachment.

That's how I figure it: the land raiders may be placed into deep strike reserve but they don't have the Deep Strike rule so they can never arrive and remain ~in limbo~ in the warp.

No I don't have a good argument for that, just intuition.

 Brillow80 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No. All the Command Benefit would do is allow the unit to be placed in Deep Strike Reserve even though they can't Deep Strike. It doesn't provide them the rules that allows them to Deep Strike.

Then your Codex: Space Marine drop pods do not Deep Strike? The Drop Pod Assault special rule is worded almost exactly the same as this formation vis-à-vis "must enter play via Deep Strike" and Drop Pods do NOT have the Deep Strike USR.

I kind agree
The wording must enter play via Deep Strike is signifying a condition and also, via the BRB, is also a permission.
The exact wording is called out in the BRB: "Sometimes a unit must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

BRB defines Deep Strike Reserve as "telling your opponent that it (read-> units in reserve) will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

It doesn't matter if they have the rule or not, if they are in Deep Strike Reserve they WILL BE arriving by Deep Strike.

Normally you can't put something without Deep Strike in Deep Strike Reserve. However, the detachment explicitly gives you permission to put dedicated transports in the formation, ergo, placed into Deep Strike Reserve.

Land Raider is a dedicated transport -> satisfies Restrictions
Land Raider must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve breaks down into two categories: "must be"-->condition and "Deep Strike Reserve" -->classification. doesn't care about permission, says "must"
Deep Strike Reserve -> WILL BE arriving by Deep Strike --> permission, again doesn't care about unit rules, explicitly says it will.

Holy rambling, Batman...

That's how i've read it the first time. Now i'm not so sure. I'm more inclined to think that if a "must" applies to a rule you don't have then you are not eligible for that "must". You either deploy or start in normal reserves.

Spoletta wrote:


That's how i've read it the first time. Now i'm not so sure. I'm more inclined to think that if a "must" applies to a rule you don't have then you are not eligible for that "must". You either deploy or start in normal reserves.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's how they meant it. I also wouldn't be surprised if they actually meant for Land Raiders to deep strike from invisible Thunderhawk Transporters.

If you give the writers any benefit of the doubt, the wording is too similar to Drop Pods to be accidental. Of course, the issues with the Ravenwing rule and HQ's make me question why one would give these writers the benefit of the doubt.

I wonder if they know what they meant, because I wonder if they knew what the were writing and how we would read it.

 Brillow80 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No. All the Command Benefit would do is allow the unit to be placed in Deep Strike Reserve even though they can't Deep Strike. It doesn't provide them the rules that allows them to Deep Strike.

Then your Codex: Space Marine drop pods do not Deep Strike? The Drop Pod Assault special rule is worded almost exactly the same as this formation vis-à-vis "must enter play via Deep Strike" and Drop Pods do NOT have the Deep Strike USR.

I kind agree
The wording must enter play via Deep Strike is signifying a condition and also, via the BRB, is also a permission.
The exact wording is called out in the BRB: "Sometimes a unit must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

BRB defines Deep Strike Reserve as "telling your opponent that it (read-> units in reserve) will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

It doesn't matter if they have the rule or not, if they are in Deep Strike Reserve they WILL BE arriving by Deep Strike.

Normally you can't put something without Deep Strike in Deep Strike Reserve. However, the detachment explicitly gives you permission to put dedicated transports in the formation, ergo, placed into Deep Strike Reserve.

Land Raider is a dedicated transport -> satisfies Restrictions
Land Raider must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve breaks down into two categories: "must be"-->condition and "Deep Strike Reserve" -->classification. doesn't care about permission, says "must"
Deep Strike Reserve -> WILL BE arriving by Deep Strike --> permission, again doesn't care about unit rules, explicitly says it will.

Holy rambling, Batman...

So you're quoting half the rules for DS, trying to make an arguement, ignoring the other half of the rule literally saying you need to have the DS USR in order to DS.
Codex: space marine also specifically gives drop pods the permission to arrive from DSR, even tough they don't have the DS USR. DA Land Raiders do not get this permission. So your arguement is invalid.

DaPino wrote:


So you're quoting half the rules for DS, trying to make an arguement, ignoring the other half of the rule literally saying you need to have the DS USR in order to DS.
Codex: space marine also specifically gives drop pods the permission to arrive from DSR, even tough they don't have the DS USR. DA Land Raiders do not get this permission. So your arguement is invalid.

It does? Where? Drop Pods do not have the DS USR. Drop Pod Assault says they must arrive by deep strike, but it does not confer the rule, nor does it specifically give more "permission" to be in DS Reserve than the almost identical phrasing for this formation. Just about the only difference is that it specifies drop pods in one rule, and the entire formation in another.

If someone tired to deep strike a land raider against me, id laugh in there face, not allowe them to and that would be that. You can't deep strike anything if you don't have anyone to play. Plain and simple. And also it's pretty clear that if you don't have the DS USR then you can't deep strike. Black and white, now for the love of god end this stupid discussion before it turns into the whole skyhammer IC bullcrap.

Dman137 wrote:
If someone tired to deep strike a land raider against me, id laugh in there face, not allowe them to and that would be that. You can't deep strike anything if you don't have anyone to play. Plain and simple. And also it's pretty clear that if you don't have the DS USR then you can't deep strike. Black and white, now for the love of god end this stupid discussion before it turns into the whole skyhammer IC bullcrap.

Agreed. People trying to make the da codex that much better cause they dealt with crap for so long

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If someone tired to deep strike a land raider against me, id laugh in there face, not allowe them to and that would be that. You can't deep strike anything if you don't have anyone to play. Plain and simple. And also it's pretty clear that if you don't have the DS USR then you can't deep strike. Black and white, now for the love of god end this stupid discussion before it turns into the whole skyhammer IC bullcrap.

Agreed. People trying to make the da codex that much better cause they dealt with crap for so long

Actually I'm Devil's Advocating the rules. I don't have a DA land raider, and probably won't. I'm hoping the idea was to allow some of the force to deploy normally i.e. in Land Raiders. But the phraseology is very similar to the Drop Pod. Which also doesn't have the DS USR. And that's close enough I'm not sure what they intended, or if they even contemplated this coming up, as such I'm not sure we can impartially RAI until the RAW is revisted.

I'd allow deep striking Land Raiders. Look how awesome they worked for the Bangels! As in, they were terribad, and no one ran them.

SJ

Breton wrote:

DaPino wrote:


So you're quoting half the rules for DS, trying to make an arguement, ignoring the other half of the rule literally saying you need to have the DS USR in order to DS.
Codex: space marine also specifically gives drop pods the permission to arrive from DSR, even tough they don't have the DS USR. DA Land Raiders do not get this permission. So your arguement is invalid.

It does? Where? Drop Pods do not have the DS USR. Drop Pod Assault says they must arrive by deep strike, but it does not confer the rule, nor does it specifically give more "permission" to be in DS Reserve than the almost identical phrasing for this formation. Just about the only difference is that it specifies drop pods in one rule, and the entire formation in another.

This is a compelling argument. It does explicitly say that half the pods automatically arrive, but the remaining arrivals are "rolled for normally".

Breton wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If someone tired to deep strike a land raider against me, id laugh in there face, not allowe them to and that would be that. You can't deep strike anything if you don't have anyone to play. Plain and simple. And also it's pretty clear that if you don't have the DS USR then you can't deep strike. Black and white, now for the love of god end this stupid discussion before it turns into the whole skyhammer IC bullcrap.

Agreed. People trying to make the da codex that much better cause they dealt with crap for so long

Actually I'm Devil's Advocating the rules. I don't have a DA land raider, and probably won't. I'm hoping the idea was to allow some of the force to deploy normally i.e. in Land Raiders. But the phraseology is very similar to the Drop Pod. Which also doesn't have the DS USR. And that's close enough I'm not sure what they intended, or if they even contemplated this coming up, as such I'm not sure we can impartially RAI until the RAW is revisted.

We may be on to something.
It is indeed a case where the "must" overrides the model inability to do something. And it is on this very rule we are debating.
I don't wanna say case closed...but this is getting dangerously close to it. Too bad, DW players out there will never get a chance it seems.

Actually the Drop Pod example has changed my mind. All units deep strike regardless of whether they have the DS USR. I was wrong DSing PA marines and Landraiders available to DAs.

The must sets a requirement. It does not grant permission

Cf to requirements to place units into reserve , even when not normally allowed by the mission. Requirement followed by permission.

Must is not a permission.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The must sets a requirement. It does not grant permission

Cf to requirements to place units into reserve , even when not normally allowed by the mission. Requirement followed by permission.

Must is not a permission.

So, no more drop podding for anyone?

Spoletta wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The must sets a requirement. It does not grant permission

Cf to requirements to place units into reserve , even when not normally allowed by the mission. Requirement followed by permission.

Must is not a permission.

So, no more drop podding for anyone?

That's correct! No more pods

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The must sets a requirement. It does not grant permission

Cf to requirements to place units into reserve , even when not normally allowed by the mission. Requirement followed by permission.

Must is not a permission.

So, no more drop podding for anyone?

That's correct! No more pods

This is like the happiest day in my life!

My orks are very happy. The next time the black templar player in my group grabs his pods, I'm going to tell him that they automatically exploded, killing all units inside, via them not knowing to make sure the drop pods could even deepstrike. To think I USE to run a full drop pod crimson fist army

Breton wrote:

DaPino wrote:


So you're quoting half the rules for DS, trying to make an arguement, ignoring the other half of the rule literally saying you need to have the DS USR in order to DS.
Codex: space marine also specifically gives drop pods the permission to arrive from DSR, even tough they don't have the DS USR. DA Land Raiders do not get this permission. So your arguement is invalid.

It does? Where? Drop Pods do not have the DS USR. Drop Pod Assault says they must arrive by deep strike, but it does not confer the rule, nor does it specifically give more "permission" to be in DS Reserve than the almost identical phrasing for this formation. Just about the only difference is that it specifies drop pods in one rule, and the entire formation in another.

I'm pretty sure you haven't even laid eyes on the Drop Pod Assault rules if you say that's "the only difference" because you're ignoring about 2/3 of what's written in that rule.

In order to deploy via DS, you need: 1) Permission to go into DSR 2) Permission to leave DSR (USR or specific permission overriding the need for DS USR) and 3) a method of deployment. You automatically fulfill all 3 by having the DS USR.

Drop pod assault rule says that all drop pods have to be in DSR (condition 1), this is the same with the formation, that's not all it says however. Here you stopped reading, if you even read it at all.
Then it goes on, saying that half of the drop pods automatically arrive from DSR on turn one and finally tells us how the other drop pods arrive, by rolling a dice as you would for a model with the DS USR. (Condition 2)
Rulebook provides us with a method of deployment because units that come from DSR deploy by placing 1 model, then scattering, etc. (condition 3)


Noweher does your Deathwing formation give you permission to leave DSR. The wording isn't NEARLY as comparable as you make it out to be.

Deathwing Assault: All units in this Formation must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, make a secret note of which of your turns you would like each Deathwing Redemption Force in your army to arrive: your turn 2, 3 or 4. All units in this Formation automatically arrive by Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn.

Summoned to War: All units in this Detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or a Ravenwing Strike Force (see below), you can choose to automatically pass or fail any Reserve Rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.

Looks like they do meet conditions 1 thru 3.

SJ

To be completely honest, no they shouldn't be coming down in DS, and neither pods should be able. They do not have the DS rule, like for example the Tyrannocite which has the same rule but also DS.

To disallow that though you really have to enter the realm of intensive nitpicking, where you can't find fault even in the rule author if something doesn't work till the last gear. This is a game, not a legal contract.

For that reason we always allowed to pods to work and for that reason it is correct to say that DW cannot deploy normally in any case and should always DS.

I think everyone should reread the first paragraph of the deep strike rule.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike"

The way I see it the DWRF does not allow Land Raiders to deep strike, But the DWSF does because it allows dedicated transports other that drop pods in to the formation.

The deep strike rule tells us a unit must have the deep strike USR. Then goes on to tell us that when placing a unit in reserve we must tell our opponent it will be arriving by deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).
Command benefit: summoned to war tells us all unit in formation must start in deep strike reserve.
then the deep strike rule reinforces this by stating "Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve" (or sometimes called deep strike reserve). then says "and always arrive by Deep Strike".

the deep strike rule gives us an exception to it's self, which the command benifit: summoned to war uses. It then allows you arrive by deep strike.

I think its silly, but I can see no reason to not allow it with out breaking drop pods in the process.
will GW faq it probably?
For now we just have to wait.

DaPino wrote:

Then it goes on, saying that half of the drop pods automatically arrive from DSR on turn one and finally tells us how the other drop pods arrive, by rolling a dice as you would for a model with the DS USR. (Condition 2)

No. At least in the new DAngle codex it says "rolled for normally". It does not say "as you would for Deep Strike" nor does it explicitly grant them anything. This is significant.

so we are now basically at the junction of if Drop Pods can deep strike, so can power armoured DW and land raiders in a DWSF? Grand

I'd be fine with letting the Dark Angels player deepstrike all the models in the formation, but I'm pretty sure RAW they just get stuck in reserves for infinity. Anyways thats HIWPI

edit. I'd also let any models that purchased bikes automatically gain the Ravenwing rule.

charactec on bike gain Ravenwing and lose Deathwing if they had it.

Now can the Land Raiders Deep Strike without scatter if they're within 6" of (right next to) a Drop Pod's Locator Beacon?

axisofentropy wrote:
Now can the Land Raiders Deep Strike without scatter if they're within 6" of (right next to) a Drop Pod's Locator Beacon?

Only if the beacon was on the table at the start of the turn, and if the Land Raider is arriving by Deep Strike.

SJ