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2015/07/06 13:31:08
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Nkcell wrote: The apologist arguments for Games Workshop in this thread are embarrassing, and frankly indicative of a fundamental lack of critical thinking or informed decision making in this hobby's playerbase.
I don't see how this statement can be challenged, given the most common arguments from GW apologists are usually "if you hate it so much why do you bother posting here" and "L2P noob". Honorable mention to "no other company produces models as good as GW" and "WHFB is the only game that allows you to represent fantastic mass battles".
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
2015/07/06 13:33:27
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
jah-joshua wrote: you really think that a guy's first post here, telling GW fans that they are dense, ignorant idiots is wonderful, Grimtuff???
he could have made his points just as easily without insulting people who want to enjoy GW products...
having an opinion on a company's behavior is one thing, but attacking the fans as mindless apologists is out of line...
some of us have done the critical thinking, and decided that we like GW minis just as much as we enjoy other companies' minis, and so will continue to buy GW products...
one does not have to be stupid to buy product that they like...
we are all free to spend our hard-earned money how we like, and should not be criticized for it...
it's not like we are talking about Blood Diamonds here, or products made with the modern equivalent of slave labor...
at the end of the day, it's just toy soldiers...
cheers
jah
You took issue in the fact that I attacked the fans instead of the company. You are correct-- I did intentionally attacks the fans. GW is only allowed to continue with this awful business model, because the fans keep supporting it. That deserves to be criticized. Fans have every right to spend their hard earned money any way they want, but it doesn't make them immune to criticism. I believe the company is clearly toxic for the reasons I outlined above, and therefore I think anyone who supports such awful business practices is deserving of criticism. I did not call anyone stupid, idiotic, or mindless. I called people willfully ignorant and uninformed, which is what my issue with their actions is. There is a difference. Are you not admitting your willful ignorance in your own post "we like GW minis just as much as we enjoy other companies' minis, and so will continue to buy GW products". You like their product, so you are choosing to ignore their horrible business practices. I think that makes you a selfish consumer, because you are actively supporting a company that is hurting the hobby you enjoy. I'm not name-slinging, but I don't agree with you are doing, I feel you are making things worse for the hobby by doing it, and I think you should be criticized for it.
Also your other point is silly in my opinion. You are creating a false dichotomy by bringing up things like "Blood Diamonds". Just because other companies have morally reprehensible business practices does not make it ok to support GW's. Basically your point is "Well look at these other companies that are even worse... at least I don't support them". That's not a very convincing argument.
Instead of getting insulted by my points, make a counter argument addressing the 3 issues I brought up. Tell me why I'm wrong about the company, and why they deserve to be supported. You need some meat to your argument beyond "you made me feel bad". "They make nice miniatures" is a point you brought up, and is actually quite valid, but still makes you a selfish consumer in my opinion. If you disagree, tell me why you disagree.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/06 13:52:13
2015/07/06 13:35:17
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Honestly, no but the Chairmen of other companies don't feel the need to brag about it in the preambles of their companies earning statements; therein lies the difference.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/06 14:22:12
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Come back when you have something meaningful to say.
I mean, c'mon Sails, when was the last time there was a fact based counter from that camp?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Nkcell wrote: The apologist arguments for Games Workshop in this thread are embarrassing, and frankly indicative of a fundamental lack of critical thinking or informed decision making in this hobby's playerbase. Games Workshop is a company that literally flaunts the fact that it doesn't care about it's players, and they can do so because people remain willfully ignorant of their own hobby.
Let's discuss some of their aggressively awful business policies that actively hurt the hobby and the players. The first and primary issue is that they have an incredibly paternalistic approach to business; they know best about the hobby, while fans know nothing and can be ignored, They proudly claim that advertising, focus groups, and market research are unneeded. They don't have a Facebook page, there are no GW message boards, there is no direct line of conversation with the fans, they don't have any company community presence whatsoever. They don't even bother with one way communication, as they suddenly stop supporting factions people have invested hundreds of dollars without any announcements, will go years without releasing rules for less popular factions, and will stop production of entire variant game lines with no warning or communication, and definitely no regard to the people who were playing and putting time and money into those products. Now no one expects a business to continue ventures that aren't profitable, but there is a way to pull products while still showing a modicum of consideration for your customer. All companies ultimately prioritize their bottom line, but some are a lot better than others at attempting to engage the customers as as secondary objective. Almost every company is better than that than GW in this regard, which leads to my next topic.
How GW deals with competition. That is, they don't. They honestly think they have a god given right to the miniature market, and anyone else who wants to make miniatures is infringing on these rights. Historically their approach to dealing with any competitor was legally bullying them out of the market, which was very successful up until recently. Luckily judges have now decided that despite their delusions of grandeur, Games Workshop does not have the rights to things like Miniature Gaming Figurines, Orks, Elves, Marines in Space Armor, and other incredibly generic concepts. Competition is good for any market. It makes companies produce better quality products, pay more attention to fan desires, and cut prices. The fact that GW did not want to do these things, and instead simply wanted to exterminate the competition through external means speaks volumes. They clearly have no interest in changing the quality of their product or their business practices, which means they need to find other ways to stay in business...
When GW makes a poor decision, they double down on it instead of attempting an alternative plan of action. Now that they have no legs in a courtroom, and competitor companies are on the rise, their sales have started dropping. This is when a company might actually admit to some mistakes, take an honest look at why they are losing market share, and attempt to address those issues. Instead GW simply hike up prices to make their existing fanbase cover the difference. They prioritize model lines (Space Marines) that make money at the expensive of other factions, and that's why you see stuff like 2-3 sets of updated rulebooks for money-maker factions, while other less popular ones are left years behind. Not to mention the power creep that comes with new rules, which literally creates a pay to win environment, as the more popular factions require more frequent purchases, and become stronger with each update. They are 100% willing to sacrifice game balance for revenue increases, and don't care that the quality of the game suffers. They completely ignore the other viable business path: finding out why people left, and then improving the quality of the game to get these people back and attract new players. That would actually require engaging their playerbase with things like focus groups and direct communication though, and it's much easier to just let people leave, and let the idiots who stay pay the difference via price increases. (These are the people you see in this thread, who say things like "well price hikes are expected")
There is one common theme to all these grievances. They pretty much paint a picture of a company that is at best indifferent towards their playerbase and their product, and at worst shows active contempt for both by trying to dodge competition rather than improve the product, edging out fans of any product line that isn't a top seller, and forcing the remaining ones to pay more in compensation while continuing to ignore them. They really are an awful company, whose continued existence is terrible for the hobby. They continue to exist however, because the fans of this hobby are just sort of dense and ignorant in their misplaced loyalty to this company. Just read this thread. You have people saying things like "they deserve to do well because they were around way back when", "I'll support them because they made the hobby what it is today", "Price Hikes are expected", "It's expected that free rules should be less well made than paid for rulebooks". These are all very poor arguments that make little sense if actually explored, but they do illustrate how willingly people will jump to protect a company that shows such active contempt for them with their business practices. One thing I will point out that is particularly pathetic, is that if you look at the first two arguments (which come up a lot), GW has clearly not only managed to convince themselves that they have a basic fundamental right to the miniature market "just because", but also have managed to instill that in a large chunk of the playerbase as well. How they managed to do this given their complete indifference towards their fans is the real enigma, but I think it has more to do with the players' willful ignorance rather than any active measure on GW's part. If you find yourself supporting GW, you really should sit back and actually think about what you are doing with your money. I highly doubt you would be as willing to invest in a bank, restaurant, grocery store, tech company that treated you the same way. But hey man, GW has been doing it forever, so I guess they have the right to act like this, right? Nils Bejerot would be proud.
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
2015/07/06 14:46:46
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
You misunderstand. GW has nailed their strategy to a tee, and clearly has some shrewd businessmen behind it. It's the playerbase who buys into their awful system that lack the critical thinking skills. As I said to the other poster, this is why I'm criticizing the players and defenders of GW. Buying their models because you really just love them is one thing, but defending the company after they show such clear unmarked contempt for their players is something I just can't wrap my head around.
2015/07/06 15:13:50
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
jah-joshua wrote: scale creep is also going on across the industry as a whole...
look at the size of the Dystopian Wars guys, or the new Infinity minis...
I'm not sure you understand what scale creep is. Do feel free to give me examples of what you're talking about from the ranges you mentioned.
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
You misunderstand. GW has nailed their strategy to a tee, and clearly has some shrewd businessmen behind it. It's the playerbase who buys into their awful system that lack the critical thinking skills. As I said to the other poster, this is why I'm criticizing the players and defenders of GW. Buying their models because you really just love them is one thing, but defending the company after they show such clear unmarked contempt for their players is something I just can't wrap my head around.
I ask you again, what have you created, based on your great knowledge, that people are interested in enough to fork over to you several millions in cash? Or are you just someone who has nothing to offer except telling people they're stupid for liking something?
2015/07/06 15:14:37
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
jah-joshua wrote: scale creep is also going on across the industry as a whole...
look at the size of the Dystopian Wars guys, or the new Infinity minis...
I'm not sure you understand what scale creep is. Do feel free to give me examples of what you're talking about from the ranges you mentioned.
Have you looked at any of the recent Infinity models compared to models released not even a year ago?
It's definitely a thing in that case--but primarily it's coming from a shift from hand-sculpts to CAD.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/06 15:14:59
2015/07/06 15:19:37
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
You misunderstand. GW has nailed their strategy to a tee, and clearly has some shrewd businessmen behind it. It's the playerbase who buys into their awful system that lack the critical thinking skills. As I said to the other poster, this is why I'm criticizing the players and defenders of GW. Buying their models because you really just love them is one thing, but defending the company after they show such clear unmarked contempt for their players is something I just can't wrap my head around.
I ask you again, what have you created, based on your great knowledge, that people are interested in enough to fork over to you several millions in cash? Or are you just someone who has nothing to offer except telling people they're stupid for liking something?
Ah, the Swiss Variation of the "I know you are, but what am I?" defence.
Clever girl.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
You misunderstand. GW has nailed their strategy to a tee, and clearly has some shrewd businessmen behind it. It's the playerbase who buys into their awful system that lack the critical thinking skills. As I said to the other poster, this is why I'm criticizing the players and defenders of GW. Buying their models because you really just love them is one thing, but defending the company after they show such clear unmarked contempt for their players is something I just can't wrap my head around.
I ask you again, what have you created, based on your great knowledge, that people are interested in enough to fork over to you several millions in cash? Or are you just someone who has nothing to offer except telling people they're stupid for liking something?
Ah, the Swiss Variation of the "I know you are, but what am I?" defence.
Clever girl.
Never know. A man that make such sweeping comments on the low intelligence of people because they like something he doesn't might actually have something cool going on that we might want to know about. Not usually, though..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/06 15:26:24
2015/07/06 15:31:40
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
You misunderstand. GW has nailed their strategy to a tee, and clearly has some shrewd businessmen behind it. It's the playerbase who buys into their awful system that lack the critical thinking skills. As I said to the other poster, this is why I'm criticizing the players and defenders of GW. Buying their models because you really just love them is one thing, but defending the company after they show such clear unmarked contempt for their players is something I just can't wrap my head around.
I ask you again, what have you created, based on your great knowledge, that people are interested in enough to fork over to you several millions in cash? Or are you just someone who has nothing to offer except telling people they're stupid for liking something?
Ah, the Swiss Variation of the "I know you are, but what am I?" defence.
Clever girl.
Never know. A man that make such sweeping comments on the low intelligence of people because they like something he doesn't might actually have something cool going on that we might want to know about. Not usually, though..
You could always refute his point by specifying how GW is not showing disdain for their customers; it would be a much more erudite approach.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/06 15:35:36
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
It's really not though.
MarcoSkoll heavily converts his models and mixed models from several factions, across a large timespan together.
He even admitted as much in the second page--and when you actually look at his "scale shot" on the second page, it becomes laughable how heavily he was trying to defend the idea of it being genuine dimorphism within the range.
If you were to have taken releases from each timespan altogether(remember that Infinity doesn't have a "This month is X faction, next month is Y faction" model--they release multiple models for multiple factions at the same time) and compared them to releases from the most recent timespan? There would have been HUGE differences.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/06 15:38:42
2015/07/06 15:47:24
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
You misunderstand. GW has nailed their strategy to a tee, and clearly has some shrewd businessmen behind it. It's the playerbase who buys into their awful system that lack the critical thinking skills. As I said to the other poster, this is why I'm criticizing the players and defenders of GW. Buying their models because you really just love them is one thing, but defending the company after they show such clear unmarked contempt for their players is something I just can't wrap my head around.
I ask you again, what have you created, based on your great knowledge, that people are interested in enough to fork over to you several millions in cash? Or are you just someone who has nothing to offer except telling people they're stupid for liking something?
Ah, the Swiss Variation of the "I know you are, but what am I?" defence.
Clever girl.
Never know. A man that make such sweeping comments on the low intelligence of people because they like something he doesn't might actually have something cool going on that we might want to know about. Not usually, though..
You could always refute his point by specifying how GW is not showing disdain for their customers; it would be a much more erudite approach.
When a man starts out by calling people stupid, I have found that the approach I used makes any actually worth talking to reflect on themselves a bit, opening the way for further discussion.
2015/07/06 15:50:44
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Relapse wrote: No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
Can you refute, or at least counter, any of it? Or even point out what bits you don't agree with and why?
S/he doesn't need to have made millions to make shrewd assertions and make use of critical thinking.
Usually, when trying to put someone down, it's customary to attach some kind of counter-argument instead of jumping straight to ad-homien attacks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/06 15:51:54
2015/07/06 15:52:07
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Let's face it, on reading that post you'll either recognise he's got a point and nod sagely to yourself, or recognise yourself and take offence, because that's easier than recognising he's got a point.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Relapse wrote: When a man starts out by calling people stupid, I have found that the approach I used makes any actually worth talking to reflect on themselves a bit, opening the way for further discussion.
Has that approach ever worked before? Further discussion was already open, you just need to engage in discussion instead of digs.
2015/07/06 15:53:10
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Usually, when trying to put someone down, it's customary to attach some kind of counter-argument instead of jumping straight to ad-homien attacks.
Welcome to Dakka. Or...rather...the internet.
I don't think there's much to discuss about GW. Their numbers are ever-shrinking, sales going down for a long time to the point of only being able to make profit because of cutting human ressources. No market research...actually, full stop. You do no market research, you're a terrible company. Kirby knows he's doing a terrible job, but he wants to get out with as much cash as possible.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/06 15:55:41
It's really not though.
MarcoSkoll heavily converts his models and mixed models from several factions, across a large timespan together.
He even admitted as much in the second page--and when you actually look at his "scale shot" on the second page, it becomes laughable how heavily he was trying to defend the idea of it being genuine dimorphism within the range.
If you were to have taken releases from each timespan altogether(remember that Infinity doesn't have a "This month is X faction, next month is Y faction" model--they release multiple models for multiple factions at the same time) and compared them to releases from the most recent timespan? There would have been HUGE differences.
No they all look pretty close. Again you can give me some examples. Anyone can pick two models from a range that are different and declare scale creep.
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
You misunderstand. GW has nailed their strategy to a tee, and clearly has some shrewd businessmen behind it. It's the playerbase who buys into their awful system that lack the critical thinking skills. As I said to the other poster, this is why I'm criticizing the players and defenders of GW. Buying their models because you really just love them is one thing, but defending the company after they show such clear unmarked contempt for their players is something I just can't wrap my head around.
I ask you again, what have you created, based on your great knowledge, that people are interested in enough to fork over to you several millions in cash? Or are you just someone who has nothing to offer except telling people they're stupid for liking something?
Ah, the Swiss Variation of the "I know you are, but what am I?" defence.
Clever girl.
Never know. A man that make such sweeping comments on the low intelligence of people because they like something he doesn't might actually have something cool going on that we might want to know about. Not usually, though..
You could always refute his point by specifying how GW is not showing disdain for their customers; it would be a much more erudite approach.
When a man starts out by calling people stupid, I have found that the approach I used makes any actually worth talking to reflect on themselves a bit, opening the way for further discussion.
I'm not defending him; his post could have been worded better BUT he didn't call anyone stupid; if you think so, I recommend that you get out a dictionary and look up the words he spoke about informed decision making and critical thinking. If you actually read the full wall-of-text, you'd understand his point and possibly not be so upset about it. My take-away, is that he is attempting to dissuade people from purchasing GW products because if you do so, you are supporting their business practices and quality of product. You can disagree with his opinion but I don't see any overt slight in his remarks sans the word, "apologists" but even that isn't extraordinarily negative as people are in fact defending and making excuses for the objectively poor rules that were recently released, by definition making them apologists for the company's actions.
I don't have a dog in the fight between you two, just my observations. I'll go back to looking at my closet full of now useless miniatures.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/06 15:59:45
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
You misunderstand. GW has nailed their strategy to a tee, and clearly has some shrewd businessmen behind it. It's the playerbase who buys into their awful system that lack the critical thinking skills. As I said to the other poster, this is why I'm criticizing the players and defenders of GW. Buying their models because you really just love them is one thing, but defending the company after they show such clear unmarked contempt for their players is something I just can't wrap my head around.
I ask you again, what have you created, based on your great knowledge, that people are interested in enough to fork over to you several millions in cash? Or are you just someone who has nothing to offer except telling people they're stupid for liking something?
Do you believe that only people who have created multi-million dollar businesses have the right to an opinion? Do you believe that only those people can make an informed opinion? I don't believe either be true, but that's really not related to my points at all. What are you doing here is called a red herring argument. Instead of trying to create some type of tangential related side argument by asking me that frivolous question, why don't you actually address the issues I brought up about Games Workshop's business practices? Or better yet directly address my point by providing an on-point counter argument on why you feel it's not ignorant to knowingly give money to a company with such horrific marketing strategies?
Also your are the second person to put words in my mouth. I never called anyone stupid or an idiot. I was harsh with my words, but I think I chose them correctly, and I've yet to see anyone make a valid counterargument to my actual points, beyond stating how hostile I came off in my post.
2015/07/06 16:00:14
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
GW may have done no market research for designing AOS but it is undeniable a lot of people on DakkaDakka think the game is best thing since sliced bread, so GW got something right even if it was a lucky accident.
Relapse wrote: When a man starts out by calling people stupid, I have found that the approach I used makes any actually worth talking to reflect on themselves a bit, opening the way for further discussion.
Has that approach ever worked before? Further discussion was already open, you just need to engage in discussion instead of digs.
Several times. His opening comments would have had some merit without the personal attacks on people that shut down any discussion. As it is, he sabotaged his points with the attacks.
One would as easily ask how many times a conversation where someone opened up by calling people stupid and peppered the sentiment throughout the rest of their statement goes.
No doubt, your critical thinking skills have led you to a decades long internationally successful business. Tell all of us non critical thinkers of it and the secret to how you made your millions.
You misunderstand. GW has nailed their strategy to a tee, and clearly has some shrewd businessmen behind it. It's the playerbase who buys into their awful system that lack the critical thinking skills. As I said to the other poster, this is why I'm criticizing the players and defenders of GW. Buying their models because you really just love them is one thing, but defending the company after they show such clear unmarked contempt for their players is something I just can't wrap my head around.
I ask you again, what have you created, based on your great knowledge, that people are interested in enough to fork over to you several millions in cash? Or are you just someone who has nothing to offer except telling people they're stupid for liking something?
Do you believe that only people who have created multi-million dollar businesses have the right to an opinion? Do you believe that only those people can make an informed opinion? I don't believe either be true, but that's really not related to my points at all. What are you doing here is called a red herring argument. Instead of trying to create some type of tangential related side argument by asking me that frivolous question, why don't you actually address the issues I brought up about Games Workshop's business practices? Or better yet directly address my point by providing an on-point counter argument on why you feel it's not ignorant to knowingly give money to a company with such horrific marketing strategies?
Also your are the second person to put words in my mouth. I never called anyone stupid or an idiot. I was harsh with my words, but I think I chose them correctly, and I've yet to see anyone make a valid counterargument to my actual points, beyond stating how hostile I came off in my post.
I believe people who I don't know opening a conversation by calling me stupid should expect to be asked what makes them a cut above. In your case, you've shown me nothing.
A couple of quotes from your opening post:
"The apologist arguments for Games Workshop in this thread are embarrassing, and frankly indicative of a fundamental lack of critical thinking or informed decision making in this hobby's playerbase"
" it's much easier to just let people leave, and let the idiots who stay pay the difference via price increases. (These are the people you see in this thread, who say things like "well price hikes are expected") "
Tell me again how you didn't call people stupid.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/06 16:08:14
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
