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The majority of people call sigmarites, sigmarines, maybe that is a hint? With a little work the sigmarites could be nice custodes. But people do you have to see a disagreement on someone's opinion as an attack? You don't have to be stoic, any Chaos knight in WFB could be easily turned into a chaos marine especially the plastic ones as the parts were/are? interchangeable, And you may say no, but GW's John Blanche was the greatest offender of mixing WFB mini's and 40k stoff to create his inquisitor 28mm retinues, i wonder what he would do with the sigmarites.

Opinions are not an attack on your love for GW, chill relax peoples

It's also interesting I've not noticed many calling them 'Stormcast Eternals' or any other variation of the correct name.

I agree with those that say they strongly resemble marines, but get the counter point and focus on key details that distinguish the two lines of models. Seems like one side is focusing macro and the other micro.

 Blacksails wrote:

JNC wrote:


GW is one of the most creative engines out there.

How's the Kool-aid?

Seriously though, do you have any reasonable argument to back that up?

Well, I would like to see another box set with the type of creativity expressed in AoS. I mean, most people think the AoS starter box models are pretty nice (even the folks who don't like the game). I'd like to see other companies make cool plastic minis like that in the variety of sizes and poses in AoS starter.

I would happily buy them!

By the way, I say plastic, because the larger size models like the mounted Celestant or the Prosecutors or the larger Chaos models are just impractical in metal, and fit is often an issue on the really complex resin models.

 Blacksails wrote:

JNC wrote:


GW is one of the most creative engines out there.

How's the Kool-aid?

Seriously though, do you have any reasonable argument to back that up?

Are you being short-sighted? Back up and look at the companies history alone. How can you just snear? I see no other miniatures producer that come close to quality multi-faceted kits. Who else makes anything as complex as a Baneblade with as much extra junk in the wannabe baneblade's trunk? GW's prices aren't that high when you look at quality verses the competition.

Does GW have problems? Yes, of course. Does some of GW's kits suck ass? Absolutely. But point me in the direction of the promised land, please, I desire only a glimps of your milk and honey. Don't deny me.

Snarky jest incoming
At least I'm open-minded and not drunk on Haterade.


GW wanted the space marine tag for Black Library, I don't blame them for trying to stop blatant copycats(chapeterhouse) from sucking GW's bawls. Do something worthwhile, rather than be a shadow.
It's a dog eat dog world

What do you think

 Talys wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

JNC wrote:


GW is one of the most creative engines out there.

How's the Kool-aid?

Seriously though, do you have any reasonable argument to back that up?

Well, I would like to see another box set with the type of creativity expressed in AoS. I mean, most people think the AoS starter box models are pretty nice (even the folks who don't like the game). I'd like to see other companies make cool plastic minis like that in the variety of sizes and poses in AoS starter.

I would happily buy them!

By the way, I say plastic, because the larger size models like the mounted Celestant or the Prosecutors or the larger Chaos models are just impractical in metal, and fit is often an issue on the really complex resin models.

On a technical view they are very good. Clean, crisp and only minor issues (Mold lines on shoulder is like their only issue, minor).

But creativity is about creating something new or inventive.

the use of imagination or original ideas to create something; inventiveness.

I think many people don't (and many as in in my experience) see it as something new or original or even imaginative. It feels like they simply took Space Marines and turned them info Fantasy (super above human knightly fully armoured soldiers being the final bulwark against evil etc).

So from a quality and technical standpoint yes they are great. But creatively I think many people sort of saw through that move.

Liking them is fine, I mean putting historical soldiers in the future with some future gadgets is something I love, but it is not creative when you think about it. Its simply taking whats already been done and tweaking it.

GW and their Quality models is something I reckon most people agree is near perfect though.

JNC wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

JNC wrote:


GW is one of the most creative engines out there.

How's the Kool-aid?

Seriously though, do you have any reasonable argument to back that up?

Are you being short-sighted? Back up and look at the companies history alone. How can you just snear? I see no other miniatures producer that come close to quality multi-faceted kits. Who else makes anything as complex as a Baneblade with as much extra junk in the wannabe baneblade's trunk? GW's prices aren't that high when you look at quality verses the competition.

Does GW have problems? Yes, of course. Does some of GW's kits suck ass? Absolutely. But point me in the direction of the promised land, please, I desire only a glimps of your milk and honey. Don't deny me.

Snarky jest incoming
At least I'm open-minded and not drunk on Haterade.


GW wanted the space marine tag for Black Library, I don't blame them for trying to stop blatant copycats(chapeterhouse) from sucking GW's bawls. Do something worthwhile, rather than be a shadow.
It's a dog eat dog world

What do you think

Actually, the whole Space Marine ordeal was because GW sent a cease and desist letter to a children's book author who wrote a book called "Spots the Space Marine" , and GW doesn't own a trademark or copyright on the term "Space Marine" which has been in use LONG before GW was even thought of. GW was blatantly trying to be an IP bully when they don't actually own the IP term "Space Marine"

At what point does GW now become measured by AoS alone? Why is AoS a sticking point? It is new; time and stuff; journey of 1000 steps; Rome, built in a day.

My guess is they sent it C&D b/c GW wanted the exclusive tag for Black Library. Everybody under the sun referred to the DOOMguy and the Aliens marines as space marines. I wasn't born yesterday. I don't blame them is all. I like money too.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

JNC wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

JNC wrote:


GW is one of the most creative engines out there.

How's the Kool-aid?

Seriously though, do you have any reasonable argument to back that up?

Are you being short-sighted? Back up and look at the companies history alone. How can you just snear? I see no other miniatures producer that come close to quality multi-faceted kits. Who else makes anything as complex as a Baneblade with as much extra junk in the wannabe baneblade's trunk? GW's prices aren't that high when you look at quality verses the competition.

Does GW have problems? Yes, of course. Does some of GW's kits suck ass? Absolutely. But point me in the direction of the promised land, please, I desire only a glimps of your milk and honey. Don't deny me.

Snarky jest incoming
At least I'm open-minded and not drunk on Haterade.


GW wanted the space marine tag for Black Library, I don't blame them for trying to stop blatant copycats(chapeterhouse) from sucking GW's bawls. Do something worthwhile, rather than be a shadow.
It's a dog eat dog world

What do you think

Actually, the whole Space Marine ordeal was because GW sent a cease and desist letter to a children's book author who wrote a book called "Spots the Space Marine" , and GW doesn't own a trademark or copyright on the term "Space Marine" which has been in use LONG before GW was even thought of. GW was blatantly trying to be an IP bully when they don't actually own the IP term "Space Marine"

Not to mention those 'blatant copycats' at chapterhouse were in the right and GW resorted to very underhand or downright illegal tactics to try and shut them down, including lying to a judge and trying to steal the rights to a piece of artwork from an artist they used in the past...

JNC wrote:
Rome, built in a day.

Except that "Rome" has been around for 30+ years. AoS is Tom "Alaric" Kirby and his Visi-bean goth-counters sacking Rome.

 infinite_array wrote:

JNC wrote:
Rome, built in a day.

Except that "Rome" has been around for 30+ years. AoS is Tom "Alaric" Kirby and his Visi-bean goth-counters sacking Rome.

*critical hit

But is Kirby an evil villian sellout, or is time just marching on?

I'm out

 Swastakowey wrote:
oOn a technical view they are very good. Clean, crisp and only minor issues (Mold lines on shoulder is like their only issue, minor).

But creativity is about creating something new or inventive.

the use of imagination or original ideas to create something; inventiveness.

I think many people don't (and many as in in my experience) see it as something new or original or even imaginative. It feels like they simply took Space Marines and turned them info Fantasy (super above human knightly fully armoured soldiers being the final bulwark against evil etc).

So from a quality and technical standpoint yes they are great. But creatively I think many people sort of saw through that move.

Liking them is fine, I mean putting historical soldiers in the future with some future gadgets is something I love, but it is not creative when you think about it. Its simply taking whats already been done and tweaking it.

GW and their Quality models is something I reckon most people agree is near perfect though.

Well, I will be the first to agree that the Sigmarites and Chaos models aren't original, but I'm sure the creative team was given the constraints of, 'give us superhuman knights versus chaos'. I think by the same standard, models I really love by PP like Bradigus aren't 'original' either, but damn, they're cool.

On the other hand, Adeptus Mechanicus were really original (creative, inventive, though some might say ugly, and others awesome), and in the last year, Nagash, Mortarchs, Glotkin, Treeman and others were really original, in the sense that they are not derivative (they still have to fit into an existing theme of course). As opposed to Devastators and Windriders and Assault Terminators, which were cool and technically excellent but totally iterative.

 Talys wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
oOn a technical view they are very good. Clean, crisp and only minor issues (Mold lines on shoulder is like their only issue, minor).

But creativity is about creating something new or inventive.

the use of imagination or original ideas to create something; inventiveness.

I think many people don't (and many as in in my experience) see it as something new or original or even imaginative. It feels like they simply took Space Marines and turned them info Fantasy (super above human knightly fully armoured soldiers being the final bulwark against evil etc).

So from a quality and technical standpoint yes they are great. But creatively I think many people sort of saw through that move.

Liking them is fine, I mean putting historical soldiers in the future with some future gadgets is something I love, but it is not creative when you think about it. Its simply taking whats already been done and tweaking it.

GW and their Quality models is something I reckon most people agree is near perfect though.

Well, I will be the first to agree that the Sigmarites and Chaos models aren't [i]original[i], but I'm sure the creative team was given the constraints of, 'give us superhuman knights versus chaos'.

On the other hand, Adeptus Mechanics were really original, and in the last tear, Nagash, Mortarchs, Glotkin, Treeman and others were really original, in the sense that they are not derivative (they still have to fit into an existing theme of course). As opposed to Devastators and Windriders and Assault Terminators, which were cool and technically excellent but totally iterative.

Adeptus is somewhat original in some of the models (dragoons) but as many people put they just took what was already done for a lot of it and tweaked it. The robed ranger things for example are simply the same troopers I saw in my 3rd edition book of Imperial guard. But ultimately most of what they do is add or slightly change original ideas. Saying the treeman is original, to me, is like saying the latest Captain America suit is original because it is a different take on the original.

See Tau I would call the last very original thing they did. New Faction, entirely new models etc. Maybe due to a lack of knowledge on my part but they didn't take a single idea from their past and simply add something to it, they legitimately created something new and everything from the initial Tau till now is simply the same old Tau but with minor tweaks here and there.

I would not go as far to call them a bastion of creativity. They certainly started off with something special and so far has managed to keep that special thing going. But creating new ideas and new things is not the norm from GW. Redoing the same things is the norm however.

That of course is my opinion.

Aesthetically, they're very close to space marines, but not quite. The shoulder pads though, are very space marines. That round shape with the thick lining is not something you'll find in medieval Europe.
However....
Thematically, they are just like space marines. They're super human warriors that are led by a god-emperor and swoop in to save the day and....you get the picture.

They're space marines ported over to Fantasy.

@Swastakowey - I'm cool with all that I mean, I don't agree with you in some respects, but I totally get your perspective; nor is it unreasonable.

@MWHistorian - From the first day I saw Space Marines, I thought they were inspired by medieval knights wearing armored NFL uniforms. Carrying guns!

I can't really imagine that anyone would argue that Sigmarites are inspired by the success of Space Marines. But then again, why not rip off your most successful product line? I'd argue that without Space Marines, 40k wouldn't have been nearly as successful or popular.

 Talys wrote:
But then again, why not rip off your most successful product line?

There is a risk that the people who are interested in a Space Marine-like faction would just go with actual Space Marines instead. Normally, a rip-off would need to be substantially cheaper than the original to do well, and these are not cheaper than actual Space Marines.

That's the risk.

If you're losing customers (which they are), then I think the last thing you want to do is "more of the same, but with boltstormers instead of stormbolters".

 Talys wrote:

Well, I would like to see another box set with the type of creativity expressed in AoS.

There is nothing especially creative in AoS. The Khornate Chaos look like a Chaos Warrior/Marine hybrid while the Sigmarines look like Marines.

Given that GW was obviously happy to brush decades of gaming history under the carpet they should really have been much more adventurous with the AoS models.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Az: that is your choice...
i think it is a distinction with a massive difference...
why does it bother you that i share my opinion, just because it differs from what is widely accepted???
is that against the rules of a discussion???

as long as i am not telling people that they are wrong, and that i am right, but am sticking to expressing how i see things, then my opinion should be just as valid as anybody else's...
you don't have to accept my view...

cheers
jah

Not that he needs anyone to defend him, but I expect it doesn't bother him at all, you're putting words in his mouth. Sharing your different opinion helps him grow as a person!

Personally I think everyone has it backwards. I think Space Marines look like Stormcast, not they other way around.

Space marines are heroic scale super knights ported into space, whereas Stormcast are simply heroic scale knights so are closer to the core of the concept.

Perhaps it is really just convergent evolution as much as by design.

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's also interesting I've not noticed many calling them 'Stormcast Eternals' or any other variation of the correct name.

Lol. Have you ever read a thread about Ultramarines?

Dakka's very, very nice to Stormcasts, all things considered.

JNC wrote:
At what point does GW now become measured by AoS alone? Why is AoS a sticking point? It is new; time and stuff; journey of 1000 steps; Rome, built in a day.

My guess is they sent it C&D b/c GW wanted the exclusive tag for Black Library. Everybody under the sun referred to the DOOMguy and the Aliens marines as space marines. I wasn't born yesterday. I don't blame them is all. I like money too.

AOS actually is the only major new launch from GW since LoTR in 2000. Its rules are modified from WHFB/40K. The models are remiscent of 40K. The fluff is a continuation of WHFB fluff, with names changed to enable GW to trademark them.

If as a wargamer you like to see companies come up with exciting new concepts, AOS is a significant disappointment whatever the merits of the rules and models. GW as by far the largest company in wargames, ought to do better than this.

In addition there is the canning of WHFB, and the various controversies about details of the AOS rules, which have proved far from universally popular with people who should be considered prime customers for GW's output..

These reasons are why AOS deserves to be considered a major sticking point.

JNC wrote:
At what point does GW now become measured by AoS alone? Why is AoS a sticking point? It is new; time and stuff; journey of 1000 steps; Rome, built in a day.

My guess is they sent it C&D b/c GW wanted the exclusive tag for Black Library. Everybody under the sun referred to the DOOMguy and the Aliens marines as space marines. I wasn't born yesterday. I don't blame them is all. I like money too.

You don't blame them for abusing a Copyright law (DMCA) from a different country to prevent the sales of a completely unrelated charity book, because they claim to own a trademark for a term coined decades before the company was founded?

Do you also not blame them for claiming they invented Tau in complete isolation, with nothing to do with Anime in an attempt to grow in the Japanese market, or trying to sue other companies into oblivion for having the cheek to sell stuff using such heretical terms as "plasma" "rhino" "halberd" and claiming they invented roman numerals?

 Talys wrote:

Well, I will be the first to agree that the Sigmarites and Chaos models aren't original, but I'm sure the creative team was given the constraints of, 'give us superhuman knights versus chaos'. I think by the same standard, models I really love by PP like Bradigus aren't 'original' either, but damn, they're cool.

I would be stunned if the brief they were given didn't contain the term "space marine". Like, so stunned, that if you can prove it, I'll buy you an AoS box of your choosing.

The fluff for Sigmarines is uncannily similar to the fluff for Space Marines.

Presumably this is trade on the huge popularity of Space Marines by injecting their magic into Fantasy games.

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Jah, you're "pulling a Talys" ie using your own very specific personal thoughts and opinions in order to try and argue against something that is widely accepted in a much broader sense.

Yes, you may not see the similarities but you need to be aware that it is an opinion that diverges from popular opinion to such a degree that many people are going to have a hard time believing it.

that is not a problem...
people are welcome to whatever opinion they choose to form of me, and my perspective...

here is the thing...
this is Dakka Discussions, not Dakka Debates...
i am not trying to argue against what is widely accepted, i am sharing my opinion...
i don't need to win the debate, i just need to share my perspective...

cheers
jah

No, I'm sorry - this is Dakka Abuse - Dakka Debates is two doors down on the right, and Dakka Discussion is three doors down on the left.

Silly git.

The Auld Grump - guess who was watching Monty Python late into the night with his good lady?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
I would be stunned if the brief they were given didn't contain the term "space marine". Like, so stunned, that if you can prove it, I'll buy you an AoS box of your choosing.

I rather suspect that you are correct in that regard.

But I would be amazed if we ever got to see the brief concerned. (Or memo, or note to the designer, scribbled on the back of a fast food restaurant tray liner*, or whatever.)

The Auld Grump

* Fast food tray liners seem to be an important part of my design process, at any rate....

I asked a friend about this whilst at whw yesterday. Apparently the brief was "make fantasy space marines."

JNC wrote:


Are you being short-sighted? Back up and look at the companies history alone. How can you just snear? I see no other miniatures producer that come close to quality multi-faceted kits. Who else makes anything as complex as a Baneblade with as much extra junk in the wannabe baneblade's trunk? GW's prices aren't that high when you look at quality verses the competition.

It could be that you are the one who is short-sighted, or at least not that informed as to what exists outside the GW ecosystem.

Yes, GW make some fantastic models but the most complex they are not. I've seen Tamiya kits that were as complex as a baneblade and Dreamforge's Leviathan requires a small screwdriver to put together (included), why? because it's completely posable and makes the GW Knight with its static, bigger dreadnaught pose look silly next to it, $90 at miniature market with a retail of about the same price as the Knight (it's bigger than a knight). Aesthetically it may not be your thing but we're talking kit complexity and Mark, the owner of Dreamforge makes the most complex, detailed kits you'll ever find. I won't even go into the kits that come out of Japan and China that cost a fraction of GW prices and offer multiples of 10 more for modelling and options, look up "Frame Arms". Yes, you can wind up spending about as much as a GW kit if you want bling out your frame but you'll not have to glue anything so changing options later doesn't even require messing with magnets. Again, we're not talking aesthetics here so if you like your models dripping in skulls and purity seals, you're stuck with GW, but mechanically, there are a large number of kits out there that make GW look both overpriced and child-like.

I agree with Talys and others in that GW kits scratch a certain itch that no other manufacturer can but that's all in aesthetic appeal and nothing to do with creativity or complexity.

 JamesY wrote:
I asked a friend about this whilst at whw yesterday. Apparently the brief was "make fantasy space marines."

I'd say they succeeded on most levels..

 agnosto wrote:

JNC wrote:


Are you being short-sighted? Back up and look at the companies history alone. How can you just snear? I see no other miniatures producer that come close to quality multi-faceted kits. Who else makes anything as complex as a Baneblade with as much extra junk in the wannabe baneblade's trunk? GW's prices aren't that high when you look at quality verses the competition.

It could be that you are the one who is short-sighted, or at least not that informed as to what exists outside the GW ecosystem.

Yes, GW make some fantastic models but the most complex they are not. I've seen Tamiya kits that were as complex as a baneblade and Dreamforge's Leviathan requires a small screwdriver to put together (included), why? because it's completely posable and makes the GW Knight with its static, bigger dreadnaught pose look silly next to it, $90 at miniature market with a retail of about the same price as the Knight (it's bigger than a knight). Aesthetically it may not be your thing but we're talking kit complexity and Mark, the owner of Dreamforge makes the most complex, detailed kits you'll ever find. I won't even go into the kits that come out of Japan and China that cost a fraction of GW prices and offer multiples of 10 more for modelling and options, look up "Frame Arms". Yes, you can wind up spending about as much as a GW kit if you want bling out your frame but you'll not have to glue anything so changing options later doesn't even require messing with magnets. Again, we're not talking aesthetics here so if you like your models dripping in skulls and purity seals, you're stuck with GW, but mechanically, there are a large number of kits out there that make GW look both overpriced and child-like.

I agree with Talys and others in that GW kits scratch a certain itch that no other manufacturer can but that's all in aesthetic appeal and nothing to do with creativity or complexity.

You mean like Gundam models with colored plastic, interior detail and is fully poseable?

Insufficient skull per square inch coefficient.

Example is disqualified.

 Blacksails wrote:
Insufficient skull per square inch coefficient.

Example is disqualified.

Because AoS miniatures are just oozing skulls!

Well, one of them is.

Literally oozing them....

(I really don't like that miniature....)

(The one oozing skulls, I mean.)

(He probably kicks puppies.)

The Auld Grump

Not a space Meh-rine.