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JNC wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

JNC wrote:
[
I'm going to be honest with you Blacksails, at kool-aid, I stopped taking you serious. You have provided nothing worth responding to.

Then why didn't you respond? Seems like a cop out the moment someone challenges you.

If it makes you feel any better, you responded in kind, so I could say the same thing to you, but here I am.

"How so"
Because you took someone else's statement at twisted it to fit your kool-aid perspective. If you are not aware of the basic concepts, I can't help you.

Where?

Again, specifics. I am genuinely unsure of what you're trying to point to me, so it would serve the discussion for you to clarify. If you don't want to do that, then fine, but don't act like you're superior for not explaining something.

" Out of Here" was 'I'm out' as in going to bed.

Fair enough.

You kool-aid me.
Then move the post as needed, edit after I've already posted my set in stone guidelines for my opinion, like I have already made my case.
You have not provided anything worthwhile.
Procede to keep me Kool-aided up ,passively, while never reponding to any of my assertions.
What am I supposed to do? Agree with you?

Cop out I've been super-clear about everything , replying several times with ample information for you to counter.

JNC - please stop, and refine your argument - act as though somebody other than Blacksail had asked you to clarify.

Because what you have been writing has come across as kind of incoherent - but I suspect that is because you know what you want to say, but are too caught up in annoyance to say it clearly.

Set examples - and then explain how those examples support your argument.

Treat it like a debate, not an argument - because Blacksail is not the only one reading your responses, eh?

At this point, you really have not done a good job of defending your position.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Plus, coming across as calm and in control is a heck of a lot harder to counter, and so is more annoying....

I agree, his argument is hardly supported at all, it's as if he's expecting us to simply take him at his word that GW is "Da Best!"

Yeah...no, but I've seen much better models from other companies. And many of them are much more creative and multi-faceted than GW.

I never said GW was da best , never said it. Somebody else said I used a word incorrectly, which I did not. I will not hold it against that person

I am simply stating that GW makes a few models I bought and look forward to buying anymore models they make that I can stick In my D&D games or that are awesome pieces in and of themselves. I stated GW makes models i'm interested in, I don't care for resin or warhammer-centric kits from other producers. I collect D&D minis from WotC and Wizkids so my standards are low, its the fact that mortis engine,coven throne type kits are fun and interesting pieces to work with in multiple ways.
Somebody tried to tell me the world is a big place, I already knew that.
Somebody said I drink Kool-aid, I never understood how that person made that claimb/c they never offered any response, other than parroting another user or two. The example he gave did not fit my objective to simply express I like something.

All my opinions are in the precedeing pages.

I'll never be the best speaker, but I will fight back. I have been as straight forward as possible.

JNC wrote:
I never said GW was da best , never said it. Somebody else said I used a word incorrectly, which I did not. I will not hold it against that person

I am simply stating that GW makes a few models I bought and look forward to buying anymore models they make that I can stick In my D&D games or that are awesome pieces in and of themselves. I stated GW makes models i'm interested in, I don't care for resin or warhammer-centric kits from other producers. I collect D&D minis from WotC and Wizkids so my standards are low, its the fact that mortis engine,coven throne type kits are fun and interesting pieces to work with in multiple ways.
Somebody tried to tell me the world is a big place, I already knew that.
Somebody said I drink Kool-aid, I never understood how that person made that claimb/c they never offered any response, other than parroting another user or two. The example he gave did not fit my objective to simply express I like something.

All my opinions are in the precedeing pages.

I'll never be the best speaker, but I will fight back. I have been as straight forward as possible.

You said as a matter of fact "GW is one of the most creative engines out there" Which, isn't true at all, they're just really good at remaking things so that they can put a stamp on them and try to claim IP ownership.

Calling the Baneblade kit "creative" isn't necessarily accurate, It is highly detailed, yes, but it's just a big tank, not exactly creative.

I think it's totally pointless to try to objectively compare a Gundam kit to a Imperial Knight kit. Most people who want an Imperial Knight model don't want a Gundam model, and vice versa, so frankly, who cares?

The value of an item is the highest price that the company's targeted customers will pay for it that maximizes the company's proffit. It doesn't matter what other related items or items with similar technologies sell for, if the customers who are buying the products don't see them as comparable. It doesn't matter how cheap or expensive they are if an individual has no desire to purchase it.

For example: there could be a skid of Gundam OR Imperial Knights in the dollar store for $1 each, and my mother would walk right past them. They're not even worth $1 to her. She wouldn't even take them if they were being given away for free because they'd just be trash. In the same way, I would never pay $700 for a blender, because I have no desire to own a high end blender. But some people swear by and can give you the fifty bazillion reasons why they're worth that. At the same time, even though a "comparable" food processor might be $200, it doesn't matter, because the guy juicing wants the blender.

Also: even on highly comparable products, different products are still different. You can scream all you want that Android tablets are 1/10 the price iPads and run 10x more apps, but if someone wants an iPad, it doesn't matter what the price difference is. Functionality is not equivalence; and if someone wants to play or collect WMH, an Imperial Knight or Gundam model does NOTHING, while a Colossal might.

There is nothing wrong or evil for a company to try to maximize its profits. If it were my company, I would sell every product for the most I could get in medium-term profits. Clearly this is the strategy for Games Workshop and Privateer Press, two of the most successful miniature/gaming companies in this hobby.

Frankly, I would be very happy if people would stop saying "this model is CLEARLY superior to this model", because so much of that is just opinion. Unless someone has a photograph of 2 pieces of plastic on the sprue, and one is "clearly" much better sculpted than the other, it's kind of a baseless argument either way.

My personal preference:

I like my GW models; I don't think they're overpriced relative to the enjoyment I derive from them, and I don't think they're overpriced relative to comparable other products, even if I take out my personal preference. Even assuming that you can get a Gundam 1/60 model at $120 (I didn't see this on Amazon, as was claimed), it's materially the same price as an Imperial Knight for $140, or a Colossal for $135. Either way, I would buy what I want, not go, "hey, I can save $20".

The funny thing is, I don't really like Imperial Knights. Until the Warden release this year, I never owned one (now I own 3, but 2 were the old model, bought at 40% off).

For someone who doesn't like GW models and/or doesn't enjoy 40k: What does it matter if the Imperial Knight is $140 or $85? You're still not going to buy it.

You can replace those product names and prices with any product and any price.

It's absolutely possible to objectively compare a Gundam kit to a Knight, you just don't like the answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

JNC wrote:
I never said GW was da best , never said it. Somebody else said I used a word incorrectly, which I did not. I will not hold it against that person

I am simply stating that GW makes a few models I bought and look forward to buying anymore models they make that I can stick In my D&D games or that are awesome pieces in and of themselves. I stated GW makes models i'm interested in, I don't care for resin or warhammer-centric kits from other producers. I collect D&D minis from WotC and Wizkids so my standards are low, its the fact that mortis engine,coven throne type kits are fun and interesting pieces to work with in multiple ways.
Somebody tried to tell me the world is a big place, I already knew that.
Somebody said I drink Kool-aid, I never understood how that person made that claimb/c they never offered any response, other than parroting another user or two. The example he gave did not fit my objective to simply express I like something.

All my opinions are in the precedeing pages.

I'll never be the best speaker, but I will fight back. I have been as straight forward as possible.

You said as a matter of fact "GW is one of the most creative engines out there" Which, isn't true at all, they're just really good at remaking things so that they can put a stamp on them and try to claim IP ownership.

Calling the Baneblade kit "creative" isn't necessarily accurate, It is highly detailed, yes, but it's just a big tank, not exactly creative.

Exactly..

JNC wrote:
I never said GW was da best , never said it. Somebody else said I used a word incorrectly, which I did not. I will not hold it against that person

I am simply stating that GW makes a few models I bought and look forward to buying anymore models they make that I can stick In my D&D games or that are awesome pieces in and of themselves. I stated GW makes models i'm interested in, I don't care for resin or warhammer-centric kits from other producers. I collect D&D minis from WotC and Wizkids so my standards are low, its the fact that mortis engine,coven throne type kits are fun and interesting pieces to work with in multiple ways.
Somebody tried to tell me the world is a big place, I already knew that.
Somebody said I drink Kool-aid, I never understood how that person made that claimb/c they never offered any response, other than parroting another user or two. The example he gave did not fit my objective to simply express I like something.

All my opinions are in the precedeing pages.

I'll never be the best speaker, but I will fight back. I have been as straight forward as possible.

You did say GW is the most creative force out there. Which is wrong as people have said.

But I do want to point one thing out... Saying things like Skaven are the best out there etc means nothing when that is up to personal opinion. My favorite ratmen in 28mm scale are these guys:

http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=fantasy-2528mm-ratscum

I have pet rats and I think GW rats look nothing like them. GW love hunch backs on their models (like loves love them) and I think this sets them back big time (among other reasons). However I would not say GW are the worst models out there based on opinion alone.

Then here you have ratmen in smaller scales which also look lovely

http://www.magistermilitum.com/era/fantasy.html#order=name&limit=36&p=1&dir=ASC&cat[]=59939


In case you dont understand one of your examples of GW being the best involved skaven, but I don't like the Cartoony look of GW chunky hunch back rats and prefer a more realistic look. But that is what I prefer. Reading through your posts your entire argument on why GW is great is based on what you like the look of. Which means nothing if someone disagrees.

Hence why people are picking apart your argument. Because 1 you are incorrect on GW being the most creative force, then your examples are entirely subjective. At the end of the day if you base your argument on personal opinion people will not agree. If you had actual facts on GW being the best then people might agree with you.

Your reply above does not match what you have been saying in the past which is why goal posts have been mentioned.

In all honestly, if you simply paused and thought before saying things you would have put up a post like the one I am replying to and people might have understood and you would not have said some things that lead to people picking it apart.

 Talys wrote:
I think it's totally pointless to try to objectively compare a Gundam kit to a Imperial Knight kit. Most people who want an Imperial Knight model don't want a Gundam model, and vice versa, so frankly, who cares?

That is an entirely subjective statement, People care because Bandai can make HIPS models that are more highly detailed and multi-faceted and cost a fraction of what GW models cost. Bandai has hit the sweet spot with their Real-Grade line, such incredible articulation and detail on such a small model at $30. A model of comparable size from GW would likely cost upwards of $60+.

This is why we care, it's obviously possibly to make more detailed kits and sell them for less and still be profitable.

Let me ask you this, as a company, would you rather sell 10 $160 kits, or 20 $80 kits?

Just saying, if you cut the price in half, you'd likely sell a LOT more units, and thus make higher profit.

In the example I used above, selling 10 $160 kits would only net $1600, but selling 20 $80 kits gives you the same profit, but you'll likely have more customers because of the low prices. And people are more likely to come back if you offer nice models at decent prices. GW have been overpricing stuff for a while.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I think it's totally pointless to try to objectively compare a Gundam kit to a Imperial Knight kit. Most people who want an Imperial Knight model don't want a Gundam model, and vice versa, so frankly, who cares?

That is an entirely subjective statement, People care because Bandai can make HIPS models that are more highly detailed and multi-faceted and cost a fraction of what GW models cost. Bandai has hit the sweet spot with their Real-Grade line, such incredible articulation and detail on such a small model at $30. A model of comparable size from GW would likely cost upwards of $60+.

This is why we care, it's obviously possibly to make more detailed kits and sell them for less and still be profitable.

Let me ask you this, as a company, would you rather sell 10 $160 kits, or 20 $80 kits?

Just saying, if you cut the price in half, you'd likely sell a LOT more units, and thus make higher profit.

In the example I used above, selling 10 $160 kits would only net $1600, but selling 20 $80 kits gives you the same profit, but you'll likely have more customers because of the low prices. And people are more likely to come back if you offer nice models at decent prices. GW have been overpricing stuff for a while.

10 $160 kits would be more profitable than 20 $80 kits; however, the sweet spot would be somewhere in between. Obviously, I can't say this for a fact, but I don't believe halving GW's prices would result in double the sales dollars.

I don't know how many people have the thought process: "I want to buy an Imperial Knight, but that Gundam is so much better a deal that I'll buy that instead." (or vice versa, for whatever reason someone might like the IK better). I *really* don't think it's that many cross-shoppers. It's like the people who compare Land Raiders to Abrams Tank models. I honestly don't think there is a lot of cross-over appeal for the majority of the folks buying one or the other.

JNC wrote:
I never said GW was da best , never said it. Somebody else said I used a word incorrectly, which I did not. I will not hold it against that person

I am simply stating that GW makes a few models I bought and look forward to buying anymore models they make that I can stick In my D&D games or that are awesome pieces in and of themselves. I stated GW makes models i'm interested in, I don't care for resin or warhammer-centric kits from other producers. I collect D&D minis from WotC and Wizkids so my standards are low, its the fact that mortis engine,coven throne type kits are fun and interesting pieces to work with in multiple ways.
Somebody tried to tell me the world is a big place, I already knew that.
Somebody said I drink Kool-aid, I never understood how that person made that claimb/c they never offered any response, other than parroting another user or two. The example he gave did not fit my objective to simply express I like something.

All my opinions are in the precedeing pages.

I'll never be the best speaker, but I will fight back. I have been as straight forward as possible.

But you had never defended those positions all that well.

Your reply above is a bit better handled.

Saying that the Mortis Engine is 'fun' is quite acceptable - and defensible.

I hate the model - or did, until I saw one that had been turned into a carousel.

But even before seeing the scary-go-round I could not have argued about whether or not you found it fun.

As I said - I think the biggest problem that you are having is that you are 'fighting back' - and losing your thread in the process.

So, take a deep breath, cool down, and then respond.

And try to take positions that you can defend.

GW is not particularly creative - it is, at best, syncretic within a theme.

WH40K borrows heavily from WWI - but GW tried to deny that, and failed badly.

Trying to claim that they were creative, when they were patently borrowing, would not make for a defensible position.

The Auld Grump - an argument is less fun when one side does not know how to argue... and quickly becomes abuse.

 Talys wrote:
I think it's totally pointless to try to objectively compare a Gundam kit to a Imperial Knight kit. Most people who want an Imperial Knight model don't want a Gundam model, and vice versa, so frankly, who cares?

The value of an item is the highest price that the company's targeted customers will pay for it that maximizes the company's proffit. It doesn't matter what other related items or items with similar technologies sell for, if the customers who are buying the products don't see them as comparable. It doesn't matter how cheap or expensive they are if an individual has no desire to purchase it.

For example: there could be a skid of Gundam OR Imperial Knights in the dollar store for $1 each, and my mother would walk right past them. They're not even worth $1 to her. She wouldn't even take them if they were being given away for free because they'd just be trash. In the same way, I would never pay $700 for a blender, because I have no desire to own a high end blender. But some people swear by and can give you the fifty bazillion reasons why they're worth that. At the same time, even though a "comparable" food processor might be $200, it doesn't matter, because the guy juicing wants the blender.

Also: even on highly comparable products, different products are still different. You can scream all you want that Android tablets are 1/10 the price iPads and run 10x more apps, but if someone wants an iPad, it doesn't matter what the price difference is. Functionality is not equivalence; and if someone wants to play or collect WMH, an Imperial Knight or Gundam model does NOTHING, while a Colossal might.

There is nothing wrong or evil for a company to try to maximize its profits. If it were my company, I would sell every product for the most I could get in medium-term profits. Clearly this is the strategy for Games Workshop and Privateer Press, two of the most successful miniature/gaming companies in this hobby.

Frankly, I would be very happy if people would stop saying "this model is CLEARLY superior to this model", because so much of that is just opinion. Unless someone has a photograph of 2 pieces of plastic on the sprue, and one is "clearly" much better sculpted than the other, it's kind of a baseless argument either way.

My personal preference:

I like my GW models; I don't think they're overpriced relative to the enjoyment I derive from them, and I don't think they're overpriced relative to comparable other products, even if I take out my personal preference. Even assuming that you can get a Gundam 1/60 model at $120 (I didn't see this on Amazon, as was claimed), it's materially the same price as an Imperial Knight for $140, or a Colossal for $135. Either way, I would buy what I want, not go, "hey, I can save $20".

The funny thing is, I don't really like Imperial Knights. Until the Warden release this year, I never owned one (now I own 3, but 2 were the old model, bought at 40% off).

For someone who doesn't like GW models and/or doesn't enjoy 40k: What does it matter if the Imperial Knight is $140 or $85? You're still not going to buy it.

You can replace those product names and prices with any product and any price.

Have to agree with you on that one. A IK or Gundam are absolutely worthless to me. Do I think they are cool models? Sure, they are but I have no use for one and I am not a model collector. I will however be buying the new Menoth colossal when it gets released ( that's if my wife lets me ).

You shouldn't have to ask your wife to buy something man... that's just sucky as (unless you don't earn any money). As long as you paid your bills and saving etc you have no reason not to buy the thing.

I can't imagine being restrained by a women who likely works and earns less than me (like my partner).

Just buy it if you can afford it man.







As for comparing kits I think it is important. Because one kit can show you that another kit could certainly be cheaper and more complex or detailed than the one you originally wanted. You may still purchase it for the look but ultimately it doesn't change the fact you are now paying for looks and not quality. If GW listened to customers then people can say "hey X is cheaper and better, but we like your knight kit and want it more like this with your style" and GW can either say "for X reason we cannot do this" or "when we update the knight kit we will be doing this" etc.

While you can always wave it off as gundam and GW are different I don't think pointing out that the knight could be improved by looking at other model kits is something to ignore. After all we all want better kits.

@Chutes & Talys: i am with you guys on that last point...

how complicated a kit is, or how much cheaper it is, don't matter to me...
the question only boils down to, "Do I want it?"...

if people want to use the metric of a Gundam kit, or a Leviathan, cool...
have fun with your models...

if you want to say that Tamiya or Dragon is technically better than GW, great...
have fun with you tanks...

all it boils down to is which you personally would prefer to buy...
i was at the shop today, and had all of those to choose from, plus PP, Wyrd, Soda-Pop, CMON, and many more...
guess what i walked away with???
yep, that GW Tech-Priest i have been raving about...

GW minis scratch their own itch, which nothing else can quite equate to, but it is not going to be that way for everyone...
some people are going to prefer Gunpla...
as long as everybody feels that they are getting their money's worth for their purchase, it's all good...

personally, i only compare GW to GW...
having watched the evolution of the plastic kits for the last 30 years, i say that GW kits are technically better than they have ever been, and that makes me happy...

that doesn't mean that i can't appreciate a great Robotech kit, or PP minis, but it does mean that nothing is a better buy than a GW kit for me...
i was looking at the 3 large Wyrd Samurai with guns (Sucker Punch style) for $20, which is a very nice price, but even at that price point, i was way more excited about the single Tech-Priest for $36, which is one of the best designed, cut, and cast character kits i have ever seen GW produce...

at the end of the day, all that matters is what grabs your attention the most...

cheers
jah

Has this thread not been closed yet. Sure its probably due. Everyone has an opinion. No one will always ever agree. People like Aos, people don`t. That`s it. Frankly GW have had AoS in their heads for years and have been doing it for a while, its not just like they done it all in a day (no I dont care about 4 page rules, get over yourself). They have invested a load of money in it and want it to succeed.

GW will not die cause of AoS, if anything it will survive cause of it. If you dont like it fine, there are plenty other games for you to play. Goodbye, have fun blah, blah, blah

Nobody's going to win the thread, if you don't like the content, move on, don't post in the thread complaining it exists.

 Motograter wrote:
Has this thread not been closed yet. Sure its probably due. Everyone has an opinion. No one will always ever agree. People like Aos, people don`t. That`s it. Frankly GW have had AoS in their heads for years and have been doing it for a while, its not just like they done it all in a day (no I dont care about 4 page rules, get over yourself). They have invested a load of money in it and want it to succeed.

GW will not die cause of AoS, if anything it will survive cause of it. If you dont like it fine, there are plenty other games for you to play. Goodbye, have fun blah, blah, blah

Haha years of work. Im sure putting space marines into fantasy and renaming everything took a lot of brain power.

I bet battle shock alone took months to implement in their ruleset.

Honestly I think they put in more work finding out the best names to keep themselves trademarked etc than they did anything else. It probably dictated their model kits too.

Okay, Swastakowey & some others, fair enough: if the technology that Bandai uses is superior to the technology that GW (or PP/Dreamforge) uses, it's interesting to discuss because then these companies could be using that technology to make better models.

I still stand my point that there is very little cross-appeal, but the point of what's possible merits comparison. I maintain that price is academic, because they are different markets. But I include them in the research anyhow.

If someone can find better sprues or information, I'm all ears. Bandai doesn't list MSRPs on their website, so I could only go by what I could find, but I think I was being pretty objective in fact-finding.

If you look on Gundamplanet.com (which seems to sell pretty much every current Gundam model), the price of 1/60 size Gundam models seem to START at about $140. For example:

http://www.gundamplanet.com/msz-006-p2-3c-zeta-gundam-p2-red-zeta.html

They go way up, to $300+ from there. here is a list of "Perfect Grade" which is just their word for 1/60:

http://www.gundamplanet.com/gundam/perfect-grade.html



Perhaps these models can be found at a better price elsewhere. I couldn't find lower prices at anywhere that didn't look suspicious, and the official site says, "beware of fake product" or some such. But then again, you could say the same thing about GW products. An Imperial Knight is exactly the same price, I think -- $140 (and of course Warden is a little more). 25% - 30% discounts are not uncommon in the GW universe. Since I don't buy Gundam models, I have no idea what a typical discount might be.

Here are some high resolution pictures of some Gundam sprues, taken at a high enough resolution to compare with Imperial Knight. I'm not cherry picking; there wasn't much I could find, and nothing official. I did my best; most pictures are too low a resolution to clearly see. For example:



http://taaron.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/SDG301-Chouhi09.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xS47Ln54KIQ/UxVsPhcwHGI/AAAAAAAA1k4/FO40gZZHXjE/s1600/9.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0d1ppzyXD8g/UxVsO9MYAYI/AAAAAAAA1kk/q75DuyNfEKI/s1600/6.jpg

http://taaron.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/SDG302-KanuGundam03.jpg


Here are some pictures of Imperial Knight sprues (I think these are just taken from the official pics), for example:



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v_fW0sHjhYo/UwfSCoBJ0rI/AAAAAAAAc00/3A3jj_cdyYs/s1600/IK-sprue-02.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-n8YEjPY3cNo/UwfSCZErGJI/AAAAAAAAc0s/vIakEG7r0bU/s1600/IK-sprue-01.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dWn0BID7lrU/UwfSCnAmu6I/AAAAAAAAc0w/DxgQDAxgfLM/s1600/IK-sprue-03.jpg

My conclusion:

Trying to be totally objective, and looking at the pieces that I could find on Google and Bing images, the plastic sculpting on Gundam models is not "much better" than GW's sculpting and tooling on Imperial Knight. Personally, I don't think IK has more detail in the individual pieces of plastic, but I don't want to get into that debate; I just don't think it's better in an appreciable way that would make us say, "GW has inferior modelmaking technology". Again, if someone has better sprue pictures that show of super-sophisticated sprues, I'm happy to re-evaluate.

In terms of price, I see no indication that Gundam models from an official reseller is any cheaper. Again, I have limited information: Google, Amazon. The prices seem consistent.

I do not consider Ebay a legitimate place to obtain pricing information on either GW or Bandai models, because we're just as likely as anything to hit a knockoff. But I'm totally willing to consider that these prices are grossly inflated and independent stores sell them for a lot less (again, I have no idea; I can only go by what I see).


Edit: By he way, looking at the pictures of the sprues, Gundam models look like they are made using the same types of materials and processes of a Tamiya electric model drill I own (it comes on sprues and you have to build it yourself).

Please for the love of god spoiler large images for those of us quietly lurking on mobile devices.

Good point. Let's get this baby on topic.

It does seem likely to me that the primary driver for the whole WHFB reboot, beyond ailing sales figures, was the protectable-IP aspect of it.

The bean counters look at something like Skaven or Lizardmen and think, "Wow, that's so original and brilliant!" because they're just bean counters and not gamers, and they don't realize these concepts have been around for decades. Then they go out for a few games of lawyer ball, thinking they can protect this "Intellectual Property" and get their butts handed to them trying to claim copyright infringement on halberds and skulls.

A few months later, a meeting is called. The tone of the meeting is, "hey, we're really losing a lot of money here because we have all this stuff we can't protect. How can we make it protectable?" Six months down the line, the generic WHFB is blown up and now we have Space-Marine-looking good guys with super special names that can be protected in a court of law. Hooray!

At least, that's how I figure it went down, based on the company's past behaviors and having seen corporate whitewashing and bean counting ruin plenty of great things in the past.

So yes, I hope this accelerates the spiral because it's the best chance for a glorious rebirth of all the great things GW has done in the past and since abandoned in the name of profit and shareholders.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Please for the love of god spoiler large images for those of us quietly lurking on mobile devices.

Done, sorry mate.

Something to consider:

For models, the clutter of detail is a design choice not an improvement. Things in real life do not have detail covering the majority of the surface etc.

If Gundam wanted to they too could clutter their models with detail.

I think you will find the only difference is clutter of detail, but this does not make one kit better than another. I personally prefer less detail to keep things looking more real.

I think a lot of people make this mistake, they look at a GW model and see everything cluttered with some symbol, vent or whatever they can to fill the space but that does not equal better. Just like having 1 million words in your essay does not make it better.

From a model kit perspective I think Gundam wins. I dont buy them, but I used gundam modeler tutorials to make some cool bases for my dioramas. They seem pretty posable (they sell stands for people who want to pose them but not base them, so that more poses become viable). The knight requires extra work and care just to position its stumpy legs differently.

I know you didn't mention but just putting it out there that detail clutter is not a sign of superior kits, but a design choice most people can make when creating miniatures.

Talys wrote:They go way up, to $300+ from there. here is a list of "Perfect Grade" which is just their word for 1/60:

Perfect Grade (PG) is a series of 1/60 scale Gunpla kits created by Bandai. The PG line originated with the release of the Perfect Grade Evangelion EVA-01. The line was later transferred to the Gundam franchise in 1998 and has since become exclusive to Gundam. The PG line has significant external and internal details, and recent ones have featured light up gimmicks with LEDs. The PGs are some of the most expensive Gunpla produced and have sometimes been used to develop Master Grade and Real Grade technology.

Emphasis mine.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Talys wrote:They go way up, to $300+ from there. here is a list of "Perfect Grade" which is just their word for 1/60:

Perfect Grade (PG) is a series of 1/60 scale Gunpla kits created by Bandai. The PG line originated with the release of the Perfect Grade Evangelion EVA-01. The line was later transferred to the Gundam franchise in 1998 and has since become exclusive to Gundam. The PG line has significant external and internal details, and recent ones have featured light up gimmicks with LEDs. The PGs are some of the most expensive Gunpla produced and have sometimes been used to develop Master Grade and Real Grade technology.

Emphasis mine.

Right. Just go here: http://www.gundamplanet.com/ and put mouse over "GUNDAM - Gundam full catalog"

Perfect Grade 1/60
Master Grade are 1/100
High Grade 1/144
Real Grade 1/144

There is no point in comparing any model other than Perfect Grade with Imperial Knight, because they other ones are just too small. Master Grade range from about $60 - $140, but obviously are 40% smaller. And 1/144 is a small model.

For comparing "how good is that model?" we might as well take the highest quality model.

If you look at these two models:
$300 - http://www.gundamplanet.com/msz-006-p2-3c-zeta-gundam-p2-red-zeta.html
$140 - http://www.gundamplanet.com/pg-zgmf-x20a-strike-freedom-gundam.html

And just step back and look at the the plastic bits, you notice that Gundam models have a lot more smooth, flat plated surfaces compared to PP/GW/DF "Knight" sized models. The IK has TONS more hoses, connectors, surface boxes and etched relief on the plates of armor. So do PP Colossals, by the way. In fact, on the IK, the only smooth, flat surfaces are the ones that you're intended to put decals or paint freehand onto.

Note that I'm not trying to reinvigorate the "this is better" argument. I far prefer "these are different". I would highly encourage anyone who wants to compare the products to go look at the whole product line (it doesn't take long) on the Gundamplanet website; taking the product lines as a whole, you'll see that is targeted to a different audience. But buy what you like! Just trying to get some facts out there, is all.

All perfect grade are 1/60, not all 1/60 are perfect grade.


This guy, as best as I can tell from the pics, is larger than a FW Knight, much bulkier, comes with a sheet of decals the equal of any of the new stuff (for free, not an extra £15) and includes a modest LED lighting kit and the display stand.



It is available here..

http://www.hlj.com/product/BAN965506/Gun

With a 20% discount for approximately $160, and represents the top end. The $300 kit Talys cites was, in fact, an online exclusive, and we all know how GW loves to squeeze the buyers of those.

Looking at that model Az, there are some sprue pictures. Not the best. The individual pieces of plastic cut on the sprue don't really look "better" than anything in particular, though, and the details do not seem to be as fine as you would see on GW models; for example, if you look on the leg, which is plenty detailed, each tooled detail is quite heavy-handed (wide and thick), whereas GW models will have extremely fine, intricate detail -- I like to call it a filigree look. Then again, the GW model was designed to be lovingly painted. The Gundam models were not designed with that in mind (though of course you CAN paint them), as evidenced by a quick google or bing image search yielding very few custom painted models and pages of unpainted models.

By the way, I simply picked a cool-looking $300 kit. But if you like Gundam, why not go spend $300 on a kit. The prices seem pretty reasonable to me. They just don't seem orders of magnitude better than GW models.

But once again, it's just what you want in a model.

1/100 is about the size of a IK. I got my Turn A 1/100 for $35. It's crazy posable, very intricate and has a lot of weapon options.

All subjective (aka. useless) debates aside, looking at IK and a 1/100 gundam kit, there is not comparison.

And yes, Gundam does compete for my table top gaming money.

 MWHistorian wrote:
1/100 is about the size of a IK. I got my Turn A 1/100 for $35. It's crazy posable, very intricate and has a lot of weapon options.

All subjective (aka. useless) debates aside, looking at IK and a 1/100 gundam kit, there is not comparison.

And yes, Gundam does compete for my table top gaming money.

you are right, looking at those two kits, there is no comparison, because the IK looks way cooler...
if you are a fan of the 40K aesthetic, then the Gundam has no value, and vice-versa...

cheers
jah

No gak sherlock.

Thats not the point being argued here.

 Talys wrote:
Then again, the GW model was designed to be lovingly painted. The Gundam models were not designed with that in mind (though of course you CAN paint them), as evidenced by a quick google or bing image search yielding very few custom painted models and pages of unpainted models.

You would find much of the same if you Googled GW models, though, so you can't argue that they aren't "meant to be painted" based on that. Indeed, if grey armies weren't such a common thing you wouldn't see threads complaining about it so much on Dakka as if it were some terrible epidemic.

Gundam models are meant to be painted, they're just molded in colored plastic so they don't have to be. If you ever buy a kit yourself, mostly on the cheaper ones like 1/144 scale, you'll see details sculpted on the plastic that you can easily tell are supposed to be painted in a color different to what they were molded in, just by observing the box art or the painted examples of the model. For the cheaper kits you typically get a sticker sheet for those parts, but I've never really liked the stickers that much. Most of the pictures you see on GundamPlanet are most likely painted models, too. It's hard to tell sometimes because the shading and highlighting is very subtle, just enough to provide some depth while keeping that straight out of an anime look.

I also think you're comparing the GW Knight to the wrong scale, as pointed out already. Knights are barely 6" tall, if I'm not mistaken, and aren't very posable unless you get adventurous and start cutting up your $140+ kit to achieve it. From GundamPlanet the Gundam kits break down as follows:

High Grade/Real Grade 1/144: 5-6" tall.
Master Grade 1/100: 7-8" tall.
Perfect Grade 1/60: 12-13" tall.

And while you'll likely find 1/60 scale Gundams that cost a fair deal more than the Knight does, they're also going to be significantly taller on average, contain a lot more parts, have a great deal more posability, interesting gimmicks like LED lights and moving/sliding parts or compartments, and many of them supposedly require no paint whatsoever. You can argue all day long that the Knight is "better" because you personally prefer the aesthetic of the Knight, but objectively, I think it's hard to argue that the Knight is a better kit, especially for the price.

And yeah, if you buy a brand new GW kit at release, they usually have some nice, sharp detail, can't argue with that. Buy one later though and it's less likely those details will still be sharp. I bought a new Tau fire warrior kit two years ago and the parts look awful compared to some of the ones I have from 4th edition. I can't really praise GW's quality when they'll keep trying to sell people kits long after the point where the molds should have been replaced, and still charge top dollar for them. Oh, and on that note, there's a pair of legs in that fire warrior kit that as far as I can tell has always been miscast; a pair of running legs where the armor panels on the left leg kinda "stretch" and look like a mess, and GW is so concerned with quality and detail that they've done absolutely jack gak about it this whole time.

i hear that, Sid...
Fire Warriors have outlived their molds by a few years...
luckily, rumor is they will be seeing some new models in the fall...

cheers
jah