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2015/07/18 02:31:50
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Wait, so because Gundam models are outfitted with a lot of unnecessary details just for the sake of having detail, that makes GW sprues better?
For those who think Gundams can't be compared to Imperial Knights, think of it this way: if Imperial Knights that are fully poseable, with modelled interiors, and come in colored plastics that can serve as a basecoat if you so wish... would you still prefer the original Imperial Knights? That removes all the subjective "Gundams aren't really my thing" argument.
Also off-topic to jah:
Spoiler:
Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from the Ancient Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, "omission" or "falling short") is a series of dots that usually indicates an intentional omission of a word, sentence, or whole section from a text without altering its original meaning.[1] Depending on their context and placement in a sentence, ellipses can also indicate an unfinished thought, a leading statement, a slight pause, a mysterious, echoing voice, or a nervous or awkward silence.
Why do you use them in every sentence? It makes it look like your thoughts are always unfinished, or you haven't said everything you want to say, or you're just trying to sound mysterious/nervous/awkward. Or you're always pausing and it sounds like perpetually stoned when you type like that.
Your arguments will be perceived by how you write your sentences (because it's hard enough as it is to perceive tone of voice in written communication!) and I'm sure people will respond to you better if you don't type like that? Just like typing in all caps will make it look like you're always shouting, typing in ellipses make it look like you're always pausing as if your thoughts are perpetually unfinished.
Anyway, just a suggestion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/18 04:02:20
2015/07/18 04:17:01
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
The technology exists to make better models and more efficiently as well, so why aren't they using those methods? PS, I've never gotten a miscast Gunpla kit, but I've gotten many, *many* miscast GW models...
2015/07/18 04:48:33
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
It did get to me, coming out calling someone a koolaid drinker, then not even responding in his own words, useing someone else's as cover irked me. I do not agree that Gundum is the be-all-end-all peer that showed GW is not creative. I don't believe the Imperial Knight comparison example had anything to do with my point that I like some of GW's kits nd think GW is a creative engine.
I wrote these.....
JNC-
Does GW have problems? Yes, of course. Does some of GW's kits suck ass? Absolutely
JNC--
In no way, shape or form have I ever said GW couldn't/shouldn't do better.
...and got this
Blacksails
*Edit* I'm suspecting the goal poasts are going to sneak away somewhere soon. I imagine it'll be along the line of a gaming piece vs a modelling piece. Which is probably the orange and apples quote. Either way, it soundly puts to rest that GW does not make the best kits, in whatever medium or for whatever purpose.
The goal post moved so far out of my original parameters that they flew into space with mechs. I never accepted that Imperial Knights are a comparison to me liking a Mortis Engine. His example used something I did not agree with and then told me I was completely wrong b/c he believes, at another poster's word, that Gundum are the best model kits ever.
...and this
Blacksails
Its fine to admit GW isn't the best. Its probably healthy for you too. Don't cling to companies.
Was there really a debate/discussion. There was nothing but GW fanboi for me. These were the most important info he supplied, I was sloppy and seeing red.
"is one of the most creative" does not mean pre-eminent. I would never associate the Imperial titan with breathtaking creativity, The baneblade is an older kit, it's still is one of the best tank kits they offer, but I never expected that GW models would be tested against product that are not its peers or dates of birth close together. Privateer Press Mantic, Infinity, are the other game-centric companies are what I wanted/believed were the suitable competition.
Within wargaming, I'm not seeing the vast difference people are talking about. I'm looking into the product people mention, but my focus on creativity isn't what everybody else is talking about. If GW isn't creative why do they offer kits nobody else does, or that others copy? I'm not 'GW only' but there's not as many products that say 'buy me' from the other offerings. Cool only goes so far, usefulness is preferred.
I don't play 40k but the new Necrons are good kits and an awesome army. Skaven are ratmen but they have some really good kits, GW does a great job with the new armies, the kits are better/more creative than ever. I don't take AoS serious as the grave b/c it is new.
Saying GW is not creative b/c they are not original is absurd. Creativity is not measured in what's new, but what did you do with what you have. GW made dumb cyborg/robots and rats into a great army. The kits that make up the Necron/Skaven selection are really good(IMO) and that's all I want to say. I see creativity in what can you do with a kit aswell. True, there's no wall blocking anyone from doing that with anything
The amount of stuff you can buy is too vast to ever really get a hold on what's 'the best', but if I'm buying, GW has stuff I can use/do like, A coven throne is a great epic tier encounter, I'd love if other companies made stuff I could use, but they just want to make more little marines/orks/titans. Even the AoS Sig guys can be used as Angels for the Astral Sea.
I have no reason to just dismiss GW b/c of somebody else's reasons. I don't see the prices of individual kits as high anymore b/c everything else is high. Gw has done nothing wrong to me either.
I stand by GW being a creative engine.
aside-If Hasbro bought GW, would not they just license out to Wizkids? Do you wanna play warhammer-clix that bad
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/18 04:52:12
2015/07/18 05:30:00
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Gundam* Seriously, please attempt to spell the subject matter correctly when addressing it.
You're fine to have opinions, but you came in hot declaring it as a fact. Which, the facts don't lie, GW just aren't as creative as they used to be, a lot of their *older* sculpts, are more creative than the crap we have now. If you want proof, look at the Chaos Range.
Look at the evolution of the Pink/Blue horrors of Tzeentch, we had these awesome, freaky and amorphous sculpts for 3rd-4th edition 40K, you even had the Blue horrors trying to rip and tear their way out from inside a Pink Horror. It was truly the stuff of nightmares which is EXACTLY what Tzeentch Daemons *should* be. Now, we have pink monkeys with feathers and ork teeth and beaks... Really? We went from Gothic Horror, to mash up comedy.
The Daemon Prince went from ascended Prince to Saturday morning Cartoon Villain with a slim hourglass figure. Ugh...
Chaos Raptors - went from heavy metal, carrion bird (vulture) type Marines to cartoony, jagged, funky looking models... Kinda turned me off of buying them.
Possessed - Everyone knows the issues with the possessed kit, the fact of only being able to assemble two good looking models is absurd.
Daemonettes - Not the image of deadly beauty they used to be. Especially once they gave them crabclaws... Ugh... I want my rending talons back! Daemonettes were supposed to be elegant beautiful women with daemonic appendages, now they look like women/turkey hermaphrodites. Again, a joke
About the only positive change in the Chaos range in the past 7-8 years has been the Plastic Bloodletters, which actually look like fething daemons! Khorne seems to luck out on stuff like that.
Hailing them as being "a Creative engine" is entirely your opinion, one not popular and doesn't add to the discussion at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/18 05:35:44
2015/07/18 05:43:09
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
The technology exists to make better models and more efficiently as well, so why aren't they using those methods? PS, I've never gotten a miscast Gunpla kit, but I've gotten many, *many* miscast GW models...
Perhaps you could share with us photos of some of the Gunpla kits, both new-on-sprue so that we may appreciate some of this Gundam awesomeness. I have yet to see a sprue that has really wowed me, the way, for instantce, Lord Celestant did, when I saw him.
With regards to GW plastic kits, sure there are plastics that are imperfect, though every kit is identically imperfect (it was a tooling error, not a production error). Dark vengeance is a great example; the tactical markings many of the right shoulder pads require remediation if you want them to look great. There are numerous vehicles with slight fit problems, though they are very minor (and generally acceptable to most people).
On the other hand, as you approach models manufactured in 2015, the quality has really skyrocketed. I'm not sure if there are any miscasts at all in the AoS starter box. Blood Angels Tacticals had no miscasts -- not even one (take it from a guy who's cleaned up almost all the bits from 7 boxes of them, so far), the assault terminators were perfect, the AdMech models that I've fiddled with have the precision of a Swiss watch. The Devastator and Assault marines fit absolutely perfectly, and I would challenge someone to find a single miscast on either of those kits. I haven't used *every* bit on them yet, but I've cleaned up all the bits going through 2 boxes of each, I haven't noticed any tooling errors yet. Not one! The Windriders, ditto. Harlequins too.
Frankly, I'm amazed. But I repeat -- I would love to see closeups of unassembled Gunpla parts to see their technical marvel of which you speak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: Hailing them as being "a Creative engine" is entirely your opinion, one not popular and doesn't add to the discussion at all.
GW's creativity has more to do with AoS and GW's future (the topic of this discussion) than Gundam and Imperial Knights, though.
Some people look at GW and say, "Boring!" Others salivate. If you like their stuff, you're gonna say they're creative. If you don't like their stuff, you're going to say the opposite. Neither of which actually has to do with creativity, because a company that's very creative can make ugly-assed stuff, too. But bias is impossible to rid oneself of. You're unlikely to call something very creative if you think it's ugly.
In JNC's defense, GW's "creativity" or whatever you call it, is still a popular enough an opinion to make them lots of money. Keep in mind that most of the people who are happy with GW just happily model their stuff instead of come here. Which is what I need to go back to doing... I avoided posting on Dakka forever, and now I am splitting my hobby time with posting about what's creative
Lord, what's wrong with me! >> scurries back to stack of drop pods <<
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/18 05:52:16
2015/07/18 05:56:46
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
MWHistorian wrote: I own around thirty gundam kits of different scsles and complexity. They are very much centered around the hobby of building and painting. In comparison wargame models are simplistic to build.
That is an interesting comment as we increasingly see that people who are very keen on GW models don't actually play a lot of games, they buy the models for building and painting.
That is not completely true especially now with gundam Build fighters
Exhibit A!
The technology exists to make better models and more efficiently as well, so why aren't they using those methods? PS, I've never gotten a miscast Gunpla kit, but I've gotten many, *many* miscast GW models...
Perhaps you could share with us photos of some of the Gunpla kits, both new-on-sprue so that we may appreciate some of this Gundam awesomeness. I have yet to see a sprue that has really wowed me, the way, for instantce, Lord Celestant did, when I saw him.
With regards to GW plastic kits, sure there are plastics that are imperfect, though every kit is identically imperfect (it was a tooling error, not a production error). Dark vengeance is a great example; the tactical markings many of the right shoulder pads require remediation if you want them to look great. There are numerous vehicles with slight fit problems, though they are very minor (and generally acceptable to most people).
On the other hand, as you approach models manufactured in 2015, the quality has really skyrocketed. I'm not sure if there are any miscasts at all in the AoS starter box. Blood Angels Tacticals had no miscasts -- not even one (take it from a guy who's cleaned up almost all the bits from 7 boxes of them, so far), the assault terminators were perfect, the AdMech models that I've fiddled with have the precision of a Swiss watch. The Devastator and Assault marines fit absolutely perfectly, and I would challenge someone to find a single miscast on either of those kits. I haven't used *every* bit on them yet, but I've cleaned up all the bits going through 2 boxes of each, I haven't noticed any tooling errors yet. Not one! The Windriders, ditto. Harlequins too.
Frankly, I'm amazed. But I repeat -- I would love to see closeups of unassembled Gunpla parts to see their technical marvel of which you speak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: Hailing them as being "a Creative engine" is entirely your opinion, one not popular and doesn't add to the discussion at all.
GW's creativity has more to do with AoS and GW's future (the topic of this discussion) than Gundam and Imperial Knights, though.
Some people look at GW and say, "Boring!" Others salivate. If you like their stuff, you're gonna say they're creative. If you don't like their stuff, you're going to say the opposite. Neither of which actually has to do with creativity, because a company that's very creative can make ugly-assed stuff, too. But bias is impossible to rid oneself of. You're unlikely to call something very creative if you think it's ugly.
In JNC's defense, GW's "creativity" or whatever you call it, is still a popular enough an opinion to make them lots of money. Keep in mind that most of the people who are happy with GW just happily model their stuff instead of come here. Which is what I need to go back to doing... I avoided posting on Dakka forever, and now I am splitting my hobby time with posting about what's creative
Lord, what's wrong with me! >> scurries back to stack of drop pods <<
I only assembled the frame for my Real Grade Exia so far, I could take some photos of the sprues I suppose, but it's packed away, I'd have to dig it out, the only thing I have at the ready is a High grade Gundam Fenice Rinsacita, which doesn't have the best detail, High grade is the beginner level for Gunpla, usually they aren't very detailed, etc. Real Grade is for people who want the Master Grade feel, but don't want to shell out for MG or PG, The RG kits are spectacular, and the Gundam Astray Red Frame RG kit actually has an inner frame based on the human skeleton to give it the best possible range of motion, etc. And keep in mind, this is all without fumbling with magnets, etc.
2015/07/18 06:28:03
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
i would not complain if the IK models had more posability, even if it was just the legs...
cockpit interior would be cool, too...
different colored plastic doesn't add anything to a kit, for me...
@PHS: in 30 years, i have had 2 miscast GW metal models, 0 miscast GW plastic models, and 0 miscast FW kits, but steered clear of Finecast for myself...
for my clients, i have not had any Finecast kits that i had to sent back, but a lot of bubbles and bent bits...
from FW i've only had bent Hydra barrels, and some poor alignments...
so, yeah, i would be happy with better QC on FW and Finecast, but the plastics have always been good to me...
it is an interesting question to wonder why the legs on the bigger kits have not been broken down into more pieces for more posability...
@MWH: sure, wargaming models are more simplistic than Gundam, and even scale models kits like Tamiya, too...
i don't think that is a bad thing, as long as the wargaming model looks awesome when it goes together...
@heartserenade: i was born a non-conformist, and have a thing for threes...
it is just an unfortunate coincidence that three periods is also an ellipsis...
i handle my business emails in with proper punctuation and capitalization, but a forum is an informal place, to me, where i can just type fast in my loose style...
that is no disrespect to you guys...
exactly the opposite, in fact...
it's like we are all homeboys hanging out on the couch, playing Street Fighter and talking smack...
if the way i type makes you think that i am perpetually stoned, then i would say you read me loud and clear...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2015/07/18 06:56:06
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Right, from what I've heard about AoS from people who've actually PLAYED it:
* The game is simply a battle of attrition with little skill involved - lots of comments that the game lacks any depth or strategy.
* The lack of points values leads to totally unbalanced gameplay (eg you could have a Great Unclean One and eight Beasts of Nurgle versus five hundred Goblins).
* The confusing part is people seem to enjoy the battles (although not in the same way as they'd enjoy WHFB), but they say they wouldn't play it again.
* It seems like AoS was inspired by the LotR game, which never seemed to be that popular, and in which armies simply seem to be a "Hero delivery system" (and in which the Evil player may as well surrender on turn one).
* Lots of people who do not play WH seem to be keen on trying AoS.
* Lots and lots of modellers will be buying AoS for the models.
It does seem like AoS is a turn-off to existing WH fans but will make up for it in new business.
And remember, all existing WH fans seem to do is whine about the rules and the army lists. No wonder the GW binned it off. People are unfortunately having to reap what they sowed.
Upcoming work for 2022: * Calgar's Barmy Pandemic Special
* Battle Sisters story (untitled)
* T'au story: Full Metal Fury
* 20K: On Eagles' Wings
* 20K: Gods and Daemons
2015/07/18 07:21:10
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Swastakowey wrote:
But I do want to point one thing out... Saying things like Skaven are the best out there etc means nothing when that is up to personal opinion. My favorite ratmen in 28mm scale are these guys:
I have pet rats and I think GW rats look nothing like them. GW love hunch backs on their models (like loves love them) and I think this sets them back big time (among other reasons).
In case you dont understand one of your examples of GW being the best involved skaven, but I don't like the Cartoony look of GW chunky hunch back rats and prefer a more realistic look.
Not to drag this thing even more off-topic, but I dunno if the sausage lips and pig noses on some of the Grenadier minis are entirely realistic either. They seem a bit like old GW minis, Black Tree vermen, etc.: sculpted a cartoon dog face with comedy buck teeth.
Not to say that Seb Perbett sculpted entirely realistic rats (they're eebil mutant rat/human hybrids) but IMO he 'gets' rats. I think he did a half-decent caricature with his clanrats, just not a caricature in the way that gamers have become accustomed to. The smooth curve over the top of the head, unbroken by a pronounced brow like a dog's head; the slightly square-off profile; the round shape of the open mouth, behind the incisors, resembling the diastema of a rat skull... It's a bit like his boars for O&G: a fair bit of shouting that they didn't actually look like boars. But with their long, humped snouts and slim legs, I think they're a more insightful caricature of realboars than the squash-faced, fish-gilled, sway-backed, stumpy-legged things that gamers have accepted as 'boars'.
Seb's clanrats are what started me collecting skaven again after two abortive attempts with the old monkey-dogs. It also helps that this time, I had ebay and better-written, smaller-scale rules to help me. (There, that brought it back on topic. Almost.)
slowthar wrote:
It does seem likely to me that the primary driver for the whole WHFB reboot, beyond ailing sales figures, was the protectable-IP aspect of it.
The bean counters look at something like Skaven or Lizardmen and think, "Wow, that's so original and brilliant!" because they're just bean counters and not gamers, and they don't realize these concepts have been around for decades. Then they go out for a few games of lawyer ball, thinking they can protect this "Intellectual Property" and get their butts handed to them trying to claim copyright infringement on halberds and skulls.
A few months later, a meeting is called. The tone of the meeting is, "hey, we're really losing a lot of money here because we have all this stuff we can't protect. How can we make it protectable?" Six months down the line, the generic WHFB is blown up and now we have Space-Marine-looking good guys with super special names that can be protected in a court of law. Hooray!
At least, that's how I figure it went down, based on the company's past behaviors and having seen corporate whitewashing and bean counting ruin plenty of great things in the past.
Yup! Sticking with Skaven, I'd long heard about how ratmen existed before GW, with some intriguing references to Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. When I looked into it, turns out one of the F&tGM stories involves an under-city populated by a bipedal, intelligent rat civilisation, rising to take over the surface world on the orders of a council of thirteen white rats. The ringing of bells also plays a part. Some coincidence that the studio came up with the same ideas (along with halberds and roman numerals) in total isolation, y'think?
Swastakowey wrote:Something to consider:
For models, the clutter of detail is a design choice not an improvement. Things in real life do not have detail covering the majority of the surface etc.
This. I've seen a lot of gamers say that minis are easy and enjoyable to paint because they're not cluttered with detail, and that some minis were frustrasting to paint because they were cluttered. (In fact, the former's one of the highest compliments I recieved for one of my own sculpts, in my view)
NoPoet wrote:
* The confusing part is people seem to enjoy the battles (although not in the same way as they'd enjoy WHFB), but they say they wouldn't play it again.
* Lots and lots of modellers will be buying AoS for the models.
Well that'll keep it afloat.
And remember, all existing WH fans seem to do is whine about the rules and the army lists. No wonder the GW binned it off. People are unfortunately having to reap what they sowed.
Yeah, 'cos killing the game is exactly what WFB fans wanted when they said 'I wish these rules and army lists would be improved', and exactly what any perfectly sane, no-market-research company would do.
A few months later, a meeting is called. The tone of the meeting is, "hey, we're really losing a lot of money here because we have all this stuff we can't protect. How can we make it protectable?" Six months down the line, the generic WHFB is blown up and now we have Space-Marine-looking good guys with super special names that can be protected in a court of law. Hooray!
The thing is though, they aren't protectable. OK other companies can't sell something directly called Hammerbloodhammers but they can sell something "to be used with Hammerbloodhammers" or just make a line of 'heroic angels' and people who are looking for alternative models will easily find them anyway.
Changing the names does absolutely nothing to protect their sales. All its does is erode the last vestiges of their old fluff, piss of veterans even more and create confusion amongst newcomers; after all everyone knows what an Orc is but what is an Orrock?
A few months later, a meeting is called. The tone of the meeting is, "hey, we're really losing a lot of money here because we have all this stuff we can't protect. How can we make it protectable?" Six months down the line, the generic WHFB is blown up and now we have Space-Marine-looking good guys with super special names that can be protected in a court of law. Hooray!
The thing is though, they aren't protectable. OK other companies can't sell something directly called Hammerbloodhammers but they can sell something "to be used with Hammerbloodhammers" or just make a line of 'heroic angels' and people who are looking for alternative models will easily find them anyway.
Changing the names does absolutely nothing to protect their sales. All its does is erode the last vestiges of their old fluff, piss of veterans even more and create confusion amongst newcomers; after all everyone knows what an Orc is but what is an Orrock?
To make matters worse, "Ogres" is used throughout the warscrolls for the OK army alongside "Ogors". I know what they mean but you think if they were so hellbent on changing names that they could have been consistent. I mean it's not like Word doesn't have a find and replace function.....it would have literally taken someone with half a brain 30 seconds to do...
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/18 12:05:34
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
A few months later, a meeting is called. The tone of the meeting is, "hey, we're really losing a lot of money here because we have all this stuff we can't protect. How can we make it protectable?" Six months down the line, the generic WHFB is blown up and now we have Space-Marine-looking good guys with super special names that can be protected in a court of law. Hooray!
The thing is though, they aren't protectable. OK other companies can't sell something directly called Hammerbloodhammers but they can sell something "to be used with Hammerbloodhammers" or just make a line of 'heroic angels' and people who are looking for alternative models will easily find them anyway.
Changing the names does absolutely nothing to protect their sales. All its does is erode the last vestiges of their old fluff, piss of veterans even more and create confusion amongst newcomers; after all everyone knows what an Orc is but what is an Orrock?
To make matters worse, "Ogres" is used throughout the warscrolls for the OK army alongside "Ogors". I know what they mean but you think if they were so hellbent on changing names that they could have been consistent. I mean it's not like Word doesn't have a find and replace function.....it would have literally taken someone with half a brain 30 seconds to do...
But that 30 seconds was all that they had allocated to write the entire game!
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2015/07/18 14:30:56
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Talys wrote: @keezus - it's not rubbish at all. There are poses that are impossible with a small number of parts.
You are correct here. However, a large number of parts does not necessarily provide complexity! This is why your original argument doesn't hold water. A catachan on uses 6 parts to build a complete figure. The catachan is no less poseable than a multipart Space Marine despite having almost half the parts. Meanwhile, the 8 piece Space Marine Librarian is not poseable at all. Going by your complexity formula based on parts alone, the Librarian should be at least 30% more complex than the Catachan based on parts count. This is why parts count is a poor indicator of complexity and/or poseability.
Talys wrote: The single greatest advantage of multipart marines is the sheer number of combinations possible. You can match different marks of armor, different shoulders, etc. for vastly different looks. If that isn't important to you, space marines aren't being marketed to you. But obviously, since it's GW's best selling product line ever (and I would argue, the greatest reason for 40k's success), it's important to enough people to matter.[/b]
A bog standard space marine needs 11 parts to assemble irrespective of which chest plate, shoulders or head he uses. Options != complexity!!! Whether or not you add the extra stuff to him is irrelevant, as you don't need them to have a complete space marine. That little "not marketed to me" jab isn't necessary. I may not be a superfan like you but I still own a reinforced company of marines. We will have to disagree on the push fit marines. I think the ones from Black Reach are the greatest thing since sliced bread and I used them extensively to shore up my bolter squads with 2-3 in each 10 man team. There's no gap between the gun and the arm, but all the insignia are there, so my OCD need to paint under the gun isn't affected.
Talys wrote: Here are some high resolution pictures of some Gundam sprues, taken at a high enough resolution to compare with Imperial Knight. I'm not cherry picking; there wasn't much I could find, and nothing official. I did my best; most pictures are too low a resolution to clearly see.
Realize I'm beating a dead horse here - for someone not cherry picking, you could have done a tiny bit more research: The red sprue (spoilered) and the last sprue are both from a 480Y kits. That's less than $5usd. The other two are from HGAC Wing Gundam which is 1200Y kit.In the end, the detail present is highly dependent on what the model is trying to represent. Some items in 40k have lots of exposed gribbles. (Ad Mech, Necrons etc.) Some items in 40k have hardly any exposed gribbles (Tau, Eldar). Going by your metric, the Tau Sunshark would be a substandard kit compared to the Skitarii Ironstrider despite being tooled from the same process. In the end, quality wise, you're really dealing with fit and finish, and if the details present are properly rendered. With that in mind the detail on the green sprue isn't bad, it is just less prominent than the knight because the final product has a different aesthetic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/18 14:32:28
2015/07/18 18:18:42
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
I think we're getting into silly space about parts. Yes, of course, more parts are a combination of both options and poseability. Both of which are a factor of "complexity". Things like shoulder pads are also helpful because they cover a mold line or seam. What I wouldn't do to have Dark Eldar shoulder pads.
With GW models, the CHARACTER models have a lot of parts and give you complex poses that wouldn't be possible with a small number of parts. With TROOP models, you get a lot of parts to give you options that wouldn't be possible with a smaller number of parts. For example, no shoulder pads, means... no configurable shoulder pads.
Yes, if you like snapfit models, go for it. I bought a lot of 15 snapfit marines brand new on sprue for about $1ppm (tactical squad dark angels), so I buy them too. I never said they're horrible. I said that some people don't care about configurability either on that one marine, or at all. To some gamers, whether the chestplate is an aquilla or a Mark 4 makes no difference; whether the legs are greaved or has knee pads is irrelevant. I'm not dissing those hobbyists. I'm stating a fact.
Objectively, the Black Reach snapfit marines are not close in tooling quality to a current-generation, multipart marine. Or even a Dark Vengeance snapfit. I don't have them, brand new unpainted anymore, but if you put the plastic side by side, you'd see the quality of the tooling on, say, a BA Tactical is just far superior.
Regarding the Gundam kits. They were literally the best pictures I could find of sprues. I said, if anyone had better, please share them. I've been convinced to go buy a kit -- which I will do if my hobby shop, which sells a TON of non-gaming models that I never look at, carries them (I don't really want to blindly order one online). If they have one, I'll buy the top end kit (the $150 - $300 kit; but I don't want it really much taller than 12 inches, because of display fit constraints) that they've got, and I will share 24MP photos, perfectly focused, of the sprues, side-by-side with IK sprues. Building and painting a Gundam model would be a fun project.
Anyways, cheers, have a great weekend and paint/play/collect what you like I am disengaging in the banter of this thread, because it's just eating up too much time, and I feel like it's become totally unconstructive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/18 18:20:57
2015/07/18 19:52:53
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
A few months later, a meeting is called. The tone of the meeting is, "hey, we're really losing a lot of money here because we have all this stuff we can't protect. How can we make it protectable?" Six months down the line, the generic WHFB is blown up and now we have Space-Marine-looking good guys with super special names that can be protected in a court of law. Hooray!
The thing is though, they aren't protectable. OK other companies can't sell something directly called Hammerbloodhammers but they can sell something "to be used with Hammerbloodhammers" or just make a line of 'heroic angels' and people who are looking for alternative models will easily find them anyway.
Changing the names does absolutely nothing to protect their sales. All its does is erode the last vestiges of their old fluff, piss of veterans even more and create confusion amongst newcomers; after all everyone knows what an Orc is but what is an Orrock?
It's actually worse now because third party bits provider can actually say "compatible with Games Workshop Orug Boss kit" (or whatever the exact name is), all the while using the new fancy trademarked names, and get even better search engine results than with a generic orc/ogre boss name. And with some SEO (like promoting their work on forums and linking to their store, stuff that GW just doesn't do) they could accidentally end up being a higher result than the original GW miniature.
2015/07/19 00:05:37
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
jah-joshua wrote:i would not complain if the IK models had more posability, even if it was just the legs...
cockpit interior would be cool, too...
different colored plastic doesn't add anything to a kit, for me...
@PHS: in 30 years, i have had 2 miscast GW metal models, 0 miscast GW plastic models, and 0 miscast FW kits, but steered clear of Finecast for myself...
for my clients, i have not had any Finecast kits that i had to sent back, but a lot of bubbles and bent bits...
from FW i've only had bent Hydra barrels, and some poor alignments...
so, yeah, i would be happy with better QC on FW and Finecast, but the plastics have always been good to me...
it is an interesting question to wonder why the legs on the bigger kits have not been broken down into more pieces for more posability...
You're really lucky then, I've gotten a good chunk of miscast metal models (Most of them were new releases at the time too, The Masque of Slaanesh on release, the Dark Eldar Archon (some heads were miscast, namely the one I bought the kit for) and the Khorne lord on Juggernaut to name a few notable miscasts)
Also, I've gotten miscast Chaos Marine sprues, Rhino doors, a partially melted Land Raider canopy (the top cover and smokestack) Heck, even had a miscast Baal Predator too, just minute examples in my more recent experience.
FW is no better either, Severely miscast Vendetta conversion kits, which took forever to clean up. The Red Scorpion honor guard and librarian needed extensive work, and the librarian was worst of all, or yeah, and a SM captain with a sword miscast, yeah, I've experienced my fair share.
2015/07/19 02:04:00
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
I went into my FGS yesterday and the feedback was really positive about AoS from 9 out of 10 people.
I don't know what to make of it because I hardly play fantasy, my neglected goblin army hasn't seen the light of day in years, but I doubt that this is going to prove the end of the company if so many people are happy with it.
The models are nice, for what its worth.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2015/07/19 02:36:21
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
I think we're getting into silly space about parts. Yes, of course, more parts are a combination of both options and poseability. Both of which are a factor of "complexity". Things like shoulder pads are also helpful because they cover a mold line or seam. What I wouldn't do to have Dark Eldar shoulder pads.
With GW models, the CHARACTER models have a lot of parts and give you complex poses that wouldn't be possible with a small number of parts. With TROOP models, you get a lot of parts to give you options that wouldn't be possible with a smaller number of parts. For example, no shoulder pads, means... no configurable shoulder pads.
Yes, if you like snapfit models, go for it. I bought a lot of 15 snapfit marines brand new on sprue for about $1ppm (tactical squad dark angels), so I buy them too. I never said they're horrible. I said that some people don't care about configurability either on that one marine, or at all. To some gamers, whether the chestplate is an aquilla or a Mark 4 makes no difference; whether the legs are greaved or has knee pads is irrelevant. I'm not dissing those hobbyists. I'm stating a fact.
Objectively, the Black Reach snapfit marines are not close in tooling quality to a current-generation, multipart marine. Or even a Dark Vengeance snapfit. I don't have them, brand new unpainted anymore, but if you put the plastic side by side, you'd see the quality of the tooling on, say, a BA Tactical is just far superior.
Regarding the Gundam kits. They were literally the best pictures I could find of sprues. I said, if anyone had better, please share them. I've been convinced to go buy a kit -- which I will do if my hobby shop, which sells a TON of non-gaming models that I never look at, carries them (I don't really want to blindly order one online). If they have one, I'll buy the top end kit (the $150 - $300 kit; but I don't want it really much taller than 12 inches, because of display fit constraints) that they've got, and I will share 24MP photos, perfectly focused, of the sprues, side-by-side with IK sprues. Building and painting a Gundam model would be a fun project.
Anyways, cheers, have a great weekend and paint/play/collect what you like I am disengaging in the banter of this thread, because it's just eating up too much time, and I feel like it's become totally unconstructive.
@PHS: i must be lucky, indeed, as i bought all three of those metal minis that you listed on release, and they were perfect...
my Tech-Priest from yesterday had the correct 50mm base, even though a few people on here got him with a mispacked 40mm...
the only new release mini that i have had miscast was the BA Assault Sgt., who was missing half his left foot!!!
my other bad metal was a Terminator Captain with a 2mm mold shift, years before...
that guy was completely useless...
luckily, GW replaces miscasts with complete kits, leaving you with lots of bonus bits for your trouble...
as many have pointed out before, great customer service is no excuse for poor QC, but it does alleviate any hard feelings...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2015/07/19 06:13:47
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
@jah - What do you call a miscast, anyhow? A problem on the tooling end, or a problem with the cast of the specific model during production?
I've had a models where the finished model is not as the sculptor intended (like I said, the sloppy tac markings on the DV box is one of the most obvious), but the number of production problems is really, really small. Like, count them on fingers of one hand, small.
One Stormraven had a very poor canopy -- the plastic had spiderwebs in it, almost. The store just swapped me a new model. GW told them to hang onto it and keep it for spare parts of any future problem Stormravens.
One model from a Space Hulk box came crushed -- GW FedExed me a new model (just the one).
My favorite: a Fortress of Redemption web order came to my FLGS with an horrible box (it was totally faded, obviously sun-damaged from being in a display window). It was obviously re-shrinkwrapped, because it was way too tight, and the box was somewhat crushed (and also a different material of shrinkwrap). So, my store sent a photo of it, GW sent them a new one from the UK by courier, it arrived in about 3 days, and they told them to keep the other one and do whatever the wanted with it. So my store sold me the replacement one (at my usual discount)... and gave me the first one... FOR FREE!!
Popped them both open, all the parts in both were identical
Of course, the sweet revenge is that particular kit takes a lot of paint... lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Jehan-reznor - I am seriously not trying to be a jerk, man. But that photo is not very good (no, neither were the ones I picked; but what can I do, those were as close up as I could find). You cannot tell what the quality of that cast is. All I can tell looking at that sprue is "there are plastic bits on a sprue that has a bunch of colors" The pretty colors are irrelevant, because we assume that as a hobby item they're gonna be painted.
The debate was: are Gundam sprues technically superior in cast and tooling to Games Workshop sprues?
This is what I was looking for -- an image with at least as much detail as this, one of MY photographs, by the way -- which show the detail on the sprue:
Or at a minimum something with this quality (the GW sprue pic):
Spoiler:
I mean, seriously, looking at the photo you picked, compared to the photos I have in this post... can you really tell which one is superior technology? If I only had your photo to go by, I'd say the amount of detail on either the Assault Marine sprue or the IK sprues are WAY, WAY higher. I mean, orders of magnitude more detail. But I chalk it up to a crappy photo that doesn't zoom into a piece of plastic, and is probably missing a whole lot of detail, so I give the Gundam model the benefit of the doubt (as several people have said otherwise).
If I get a Gundam model, I will take side-by-sides. So that you can have something like this (you need to click on it and crank the zoom to really see; the actual image is 5184x3456), and people can decide for themselves which is superior:
Spoiler:
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2015/07/19 06:39:14
2015/07/19 07:32:06
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
@Talys: when i say miscast, i am talking about the production end, not the mold making end...
the metal BA Assault Sgt. i got was missing the end of his boot, as if there was not quite enough metal poured, but the replacement was perfect...
the metal Termie Captain was from the mold not being aligned properly, so there was a 2mm offset all along the mold line on the body, but, again, the replacement was perfect...
i'm with you on the appreciation for what GW is doing with their plastics right now...
speaking about a few of the flaws on the Space Hulk and DV minis, those are tooling limitations for their plastics...
there are a few limitations visible on the DATac. Squad, like the missle launcher shoulder pad, but it is still a big improvement from the Black Reach one...
you can actually see them solving problems discovered in previous kits, which is why i keep saying does evolve and advance with their model making...
the new Termie librarian is a good example, as it has not of the flaws along the Crux pad that a couple of the SH Termies have, but they have cast the guy in a lot more parts so that all of the detail lies along the plane that works best in the steel mold...
unfortunalely, push-fit is always going to have a compromise present due to the limitation of less parts...
the more parts a model can be cut into, the more everything can lie along that nice horizontal plane that steel molds are best for...
...
The Black Hand
They seem a bit like old 
