Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I enjoy how civil this conversation has been the last few pages. I go down to the AOS general discussion and there's a frothing mob of new posters insulting down anyone who dares not speak entirely positive of GW.

By comparison, this conversation between all parties- Talys, Az, agnosto et. al- is like an enjoyable talk between pints at the bar.

 Accolade wrote:
I enjoy how civil this conversation has been the last few pages. I go down to the AOS general discussion and there's a frothing mob of new posters insulting down anyone who dares not speak entirely positive of GW.

By comparison, this conversation between all parties- Talys, Az, agnosto et. al- is like an enjoyable talk between pints at the bar.

If only. I could use a good pint or three.

I think likely we're more "seasoned" hobbyists and so can agree to disagree on things we don't necessarily see eye-to-eye on. Besides, as long as people aren't tossing insults at each other, it's easier to have a mature conversation. Some people get entirely too emotionally wrapped up in their toy-soldiers.

gak, I just got off work at 2200 on a Friday. I need like 3 pints and a funnel.

I'd drink with all of you.

Except Accolade.

You know what you did.

Fair enough, Blacksails. I swear to buy you an actual pint should you frequent Gen Con in the next two years, I think I owe you that much!

(I know some good places in Indy)

 Accolade wrote:
Fair enough, Blacksails. I swear to buy you an actual pint should you frequent Gen Con in the next two years, I think I owe you that much!

(I know some good places in Indy)

All I know about all these cons is that they're too far away. East coast Canuckistan isn't half as exciting as east coast Murica.

But fine, I guess I'll buy you a beer too if we ever meet. Only this one time though.

Maybe we can be friends.

Maybe.

We can totes be friends

Cool let's all be friends and play Age of Sigmar together over some brew!

What?

Why are you looking at me like that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
honestly I bet it's a lot more fun than FB or 40K when you're so drunk you can't stand up.

destrucifier wrote:
Cool let's all be friends and play Age of Sigmar together over some brew!

What?

Why are you looking at me like that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
honestly I bet it's a lot more fun than FB or 40K when you're so drunk you can't stand up.

[Glares]

There is no honor in what you just said.

[glaring intensifies]

 Talys wrote:

I am guessing that as GW moves along, they're going to make more starter boxes for different factions; at the moment, a lot of the factions don't really have the right models/distribution for AoS anyhow. Keep in mind that the two "campaign" boxes, Deathstorm and Stormclaw, are a fantastic value for models, but terrible starter boxes

I agree, I can see a lot of proscribed campaign boxes coming with mini's included in the standard X Vs Y format. Hopefully if one comes out where I like X, I'll find someone to flog Y to.

destrucifier wrote:
Cool let's all be friends and play Age of Sigmar together over some brew!

What?

Why are you looking at me like that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
honestly I bet it's a lot more fun than FB or 40K when you're so drunk you can't stand up.

Maybe that's why I don't find GW games fun anymore. I don't drink.

Cocaine works too if you don't drink.

 MWHistorian wrote:

destrucifier wrote:
Cool let's all be friends and play Age of Sigmar together over some brew!

What?

Why are you looking at me like that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
honestly I bet it's a lot more fun than FB or 40K when you're so drunk you can't stand up.

Maybe that's why I don't find GW games fun anymore. I don't drink.

Great tagline for AoS, isn't it? You have to be drunk or high to play this!

 Vermis wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

destrucifier wrote:
Cool let's all be friends and play Age of Sigmar together over some brew!

What?

Why are you looking at me like that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
honestly I bet it's a lot more fun than FB or 40K when you're so drunk you can't stand up.

Maybe that's why I don't find GW games fun anymore. I don't drink.

Great tagline for AoS, isn't it? You have to be drunk or high to play this!

It's like the Grateful Dead of Wargames. You need to be chemically inhibited to enjoy it.

The hammers in AoS is a subtle nudge that you have to be hammered in order to enjoy it.

 heartserenade wrote:
The hammers in AoS is a subtle nudge that you have to be hammered in order to enjoy it.

Quoted for truth, lol.

Also, they replaced skulls on mareenz with hammers... the hammercloak anyone?

Maybe they will introduce more hammer related scenery?

like a hammer clock, a hammer statue, a hammer door..

 FacelessMage wrote:
Maybe they will introduce more hammer related scenery?

like a hammer clock, a hammer statue, a hammer door..

Joke now, but it's coming.

 FacelessMage wrote:
Maybe they will introduce more hammer related scenery?

like a hammer clock, a hammer statue, a hammer door..

Hammers are the new skulls?

Relapse wrote:

 FacelessMage wrote:
Maybe they will introduce more hammer related scenery?

like a hammer clock, a hammer statue, a hammer door..

Hammers are the new skulls?

Wait till you see the Sigmarite Steampriest, he has little floating hammers that follow him around.

Haldir wrote:
Gentlemen , something is wrong here if we're mentioning gun control , environmental issues and toy soldiers...... I didn't mean to offend anyone , but I do feel the anti GW rankings are a bit overboard. But hey everyone is entitled to express themselves and how they feel. No offense was meant. But hey if you are unhappy why are you venting here ? I sent a whole page email to GW lambasting how in a matter of days people here can design a better points system than their whole staff! Everyone unhappy should do the same!

Do you know what "Identity Politics" is/are?

Identity Politics is essentially the claim that unless you belong to an Identity Group (ethnic, manual/physical laborer, clock-maker, cobbler/shoe-repairer, accountant, redhead, . . . , gamer - with the sub-groups: miniatures gamer, fantasy gamer, WHFB gamer, WHFB 2nd, 3rd, etc. ed. gamer, Sci-Fi gamer,WH40K gamer, Board gamer, etc. . .; and so on.....) then your opinion about that identity group is invalid, and you are not allowed an opinion.

Of course, this is the very worst of Authoritarian, Anti-Enlightenment, Social Justice Warrior, Leftist, Anti-Progressive idiocy in 99.999% of all cases (there are some identities where membership tends to make one's opinion more valid than one who does not belong to that identity group, but these demographics are extremely rare - for instance, Holocaust Survivors from Death Camps in Nazi Germany. But even in these cases it does not make outsiders to that group's opinions, or analysis invalid, only lacking in a context that makes the group members opinions, when informed, that much more valid).


Now, why is this seemingly fraught topic connected with the criticism/critique of GW?

Because membership in the group of GW gamers, who like their products does not carry with it an experience and identity that is so exclusive as to exclude or invalidate the opinions of those not of this group.

Some, many in fact, of the people I see critiquing GW are doing so in the same fashion that one would se a Critique in a Fine Arts class, where the critique is a Positive/Constructive Critique (aimed at improving the subject of the critique), rather than a Negative/Destructive/Eliminativist Critique (aimed at destroying, eliminating, or removing the subject of critique from the world/existence).

The title of this thread does seem to indicate that the goal is eliminativist, but it can be the case that a creative work is so far gone that it might be best if it were just disposed of and a new work began from a blank slate. This latter seems to be more what the OP is suggesting:

• That GW's efforts with WHFB have become so muddied, confused, with rips and tears on the canvas where portions of the work have been repetitively erased, or overpainted, with smeared line and color, and the texture of the canvas showing through failed and twisted prior attempts, some of which worked, yet were abandoned for mysterious and inscrutable reasons, that a continued attempt to complete the work is doomed given the stated goals and intentions (The Intentions will never achieve the desired consequences/results).

I, for instance, would dearly love to see the Old Warhammer world (with Araby, Kislevites, and other more colorful Armies still produced). And I miss the original Viking Dwarves, and the 40K Squats.

However, that is just my personal opinion.

But, just looking at hard, objective facts, GW does not look to be having what you would call "success" with their constant changes.

It is alienating customers, as indicating by each year showing declining sales, and having to take out loans to pay dividends (which is, in most businesses a bad sign).

The Aesthetics of what they produce are mostly irrelevant, unless those aesthetics are just wholly unappealing to everyone.

What MOST here seem to be critiquing is that GW has been failing more and more to provide what the customer base wishes to buy, with a smaller and smaller fan base, and a company ethic that shows an obvious disdain for their customer base.

MB

Haldir wrote:
Gentlemen , something is wrong here if we're mentioning gun control , environmental issues and toy soldiers...... I didn't mean to offend anyone , but I do feel the anti GW rankings are a bit overboard. But hey everyone is entitled to express themselves and how they feel. No offense was meant. But hey if you are unhappy why are you venting here ? I sent a whole page email to GW lambasting how in a matter of days people here can design a better points system than their whole staff! Everyone unhappy should do the same!

Oh! And I hope that the Homage to Haldir is out of a love for Tolkien's works (I am going to guess that it is after Haldir, the Teleri Silvan elf of Lórien, and not Haldir of the Haladin, of the Edain of Brethil in the First Age).

As you may soon learn, I am a huge Tolkien nerd (and a bit of a cantankerous purist in that regard). Tolkien remains my favorite author (even though I now recognize his many, many very deep flaws - I have gone to Oxford and Marquette to visit his libraries in the past to read many of the unpublished materials related to Middle-earth, as well as his theological, and philological works, which are closely related to Middle-earth, and discovered that he was a pretty strange character who would have been very difficult to communicate with - as indeed many of his associates, who were young when he was at Oxford, related).

It is a pity that Haldir's role in the films could not have been portrayed more accurately, as there was plenty of action he took part in on the North marches of Lothlórien, with the destruction of the Moria Orcs and Goblins who had pursued the fellowship into the fences of Lórien, and then later with its defense against the attacks from Dol Guldur on March 11th, 15th, and 22nd, and then he commanded a company during the final assault of Dol Guldur on March 28th, where Galadriel pulled a Lúthien, and caused the tower to collapse through the exertion of her power (at one point, sad to have been through a song of power, as Lúthien had done, but I think Tolkien wanted to show a differentiation between the two, with Galadriel being more "martial" in her power than was Lúthien, whose power arose more through innocence).

But.... Nice to see homages to Tolkien.....

Which is yet another area where GW have dropped the ball, not once, but twice, in having the license to produce LotR miniatures, yet not supporting the line.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

destrucifier wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH LOOK AT ME I'M A TEENAGER WHO KNOWS BIG WORDS AND WORSHIPS RONALD REAGAN BECAUSE I'M TOO YOUNG TO KNOW WHAT LIVING UNDER REAGAN WAS LIKE BLAH BLAH BLAH PLEASE EXTERMINATE ME, I DO NOT DESERVE LIFE.

I worked for Reagan, under John Tower and Charlie Wilson. I used to have a photo of me and Reagan from the 1984 GOP Convention in Dallas, Texas, where the friend who got me the job with Tower (he worked for Tower's Campaign, and then later as a member of his Staff on Intelligence Issues)

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Haldir wrote:
Yes agreed , but expressing your displeasure could be better served by emailing. GW directly. The more emails they receive the better. Right?

The sentiment is correct, but the means probably less so.

Many companies show a neglect of email responses or criticisms. They respond more directly to snail-mail. I imagine if all of those who were unhappy with GW wrote a physical letter to them, that they might alter their behavior, or goals a bit.

But, this post shows what is being sought for on this thread:

• Possible actions that might be constructive in seeing GW be more attentive to its customers.

Which is, I think, more why people are complaining: They feel neglected.

MB

RULE #1 is NOT optional.

Warnings and suspensions have already been handed out.

More will follow if the rules of the site are not...followed.

BeAfraid wrote:

Haldir wrote:
Gentlemen , something is wrong here if we're mentioning gun control , environmental issues and toy soldiers...... I didn't mean to offend anyone , but I do feel the anti GW rankings are a bit overboard. But hey everyone is entitled to express themselves and how they feel. No offense was meant. But hey if you are unhappy why are you venting here ? I sent a whole page email to GW lambasting how in a matter of days people here can design a better points system than their whole staff! Everyone unhappy should do the same!

Do you know what "Identity Politics" is/are?

Soooo.....you decided this thread would be made more civil and on-topic if you bought up this particular tangent, five days after it was first posted? Bwuh?

 Blacksails wrote:
Cocaine works too if you don't drink.

Ritalin and Morphine, personally (They are prescribed - I got a little blown up - well, and the Ritalin is for a combination of ADD and Depression).

But it is a great combination is the dosage of each is doubled.

If drugs were legalized, what is now cocaine would become much closer to Ritalin as a commercial product (although probably as a liquid nasal delivery - still snorted, but manufactured specifically for nasal use).

And what is now called "Speed"/Amphetamines/Methamphetamine, would revert to being a Methamphetamine Sulfate, or a Dextroamphetamine Hydrochloride, as both are MASSIVELY less damaging than the Methamphetamine analogs (Ice) that is now produced from Pseudoephedrine (usually as 4-MAR, rather than Methamphetamine).

But... anyway... Yeah... not everyone "drinks" (alcohol).

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:

Haldir wrote:
Gentlemen , something is wrong here if we're mentioning gun control , environmental issues and toy soldiers...... I didn't mean to offend anyone , but I do feel the anti GW rankings are a bit overboard. But hey everyone is entitled to express themselves and how they feel. No offense was meant. But hey if you are unhappy why are you venting here ? I sent a whole page email to GW lambasting how in a matter of days people here can design a better points system than their whole staff! Everyone unhappy should do the same!

Do you know what "Identity Politics" is/are?

Soooo.....you decided this thread would be made more civil and on-topic if you bought up this particular tangent, five days after it was first posted? Bwuh?

It was relevant.

And I have been working for the last week, since I finally got back to my computer.

The concept tends to spread into other domains than simply politics, or "social issues."

It exists as a Folk Psychology concept as well, which is where it originally arose from (tragically, at that - as it is one messed up ideology).

MB

BeAfraid wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Cocaine works too if you don't drink.

Ritalin and Morphine, personally (They are prescribed - I got a little blown up - well, and the Ritalin is for a combination of ADD and Depression).

But it is a great combination is the dosage of each is doubled.

If drugs were legalized, what is now cocaine would become much closer to Ritalin as a commercial product (although probably as a liquid nasal delivery - still snorted, but manufactured specifically for nasal use).

And what is now called "Speed"/Amphetamines/Methamphetamine, would revert to being a Methamphetamine Sulfate, or a Dextroamphetamine Hydrochloride, as both are MASSIVELY less damaging than the Methamphetamine analogs (Ice) that is now produced from Pseudoephedrine (usually as 4-MAR, rather than Methamphetamine).

But... anyway... Yeah... not everyone "drinks" (alcohol).

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:

Haldir wrote:
Gentlemen , something is wrong here if we're mentioning gun control , environmental issues and toy soldiers...... I didn't mean to offend anyone , but I do feel the anti GW rankings are a bit overboard. But hey everyone is entitled to express themselves and how they feel. No offense was meant. But hey if you are unhappy why are you venting here ? I sent a whole page email to GW lambasting how in a matter of days people here can design a better points system than their whole staff! Everyone unhappy should do the same!

Do you know what "Identity Politics" is/are?

Soooo.....you decided this thread would be made more civil and on-topic if you bought up this particular tangent, five days after it was first posted? Bwuh?

It was relevant.

And I have been working for the last week, since I finally got back to my computer.

The concept tends to spread into other domains than simply politics, or "social issues."

It exists as a Folk Psychology concept as well, which is where it originally arose from (tragically, at that - as it is one messed up ideology).

MB

It seemed reasonably argued to me - and I had much the same observation with D&D 4th edition.

Another phrase that can be used is 'disenfranchisement'. - where people feel that their opinions are not weighted properly or are being ignored, while other opinions have their weight artificially increased.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* It may be worth noting that 5th edition D&D was and is an active attempt to correct the social problems created with 4th edition.

I do not much like 5th edition - but it is a move toward bringing back players that were alienated by the way 4th edition was handled (much more than the rules for 4th edition itself).

As a result, D&D has regained the position of top selling RPG.

 Guildsman wrote:
I used to not care. Now, I'm feeling kind of sad, because I very much expect Age of Sigmarines to fail. And if AoS fails, GW as a whole won't be far behind.

If GW goes down, Warhammer in all its forms goes with it. D&D went through a similar crisis, and only barely survived, despite being a household name. If D&D can come so close to failure, Warhammer is doomed.

Ahaha no.

The success or failure of GW rested solely on 40K. With AoS with their limited releases and digital halfassed rules they aren't taking much in the way of risk. New armies/model releases will only be a few core sets with the rest very limited and only what they know will sell. GW won't suffer fianancially from this because they're putting minimal chips on the table to begin with.

Its classic downsizing, straight out an executive boardroom. .

TBM wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:
I used to not care. Now, I'm feeling kind of sad, because I very much expect Age of Sigmarines to fail. And if AoS fails, GW as a whole won't be far behind.

If GW goes down, Warhammer in all its forms goes with it. D&D went through a similar crisis, and only barely survived, despite being a household name. If D&D can come so close to failure, Warhammer is doomed.

Ahaha no.

The success or failure of GW rested solely on 40K. With AoS with their limited releases and digital halfassed rules they aren't taking much in the way of risk. New armies/model releases will only be a few core sets with the rest very limited and only what they know will sell. GW won't suffer fianancially from this because they're putting minimal chips on the table to begin with.

Its classic downsizing, straight out an executive boardroom. .

GW pretty much has all its eggs in one basket and has for quiet sometime now.

 Chute82 wrote:

TBM wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:
I used to not care. Now, I'm feeling kind of sad, because I very much expect Age of Sigmarines to fail. And if AoS fails, GW as a whole won't be far behind.

If GW goes down, Warhammer in all its forms goes with it. D&D went through a similar crisis, and only barely survived, despite being a household name. If D&D can come so close to failure, Warhammer is doomed.

Ahaha no.

The success or failure of GW rested solely on 40K. With AoS with their limited releases and digital halfassed rules they aren't taking much in the way of risk. New armies/model releases will only be a few core sets with the rest very limited and only what they know will sell. GW won't suffer fianancially from this because they're putting minimal chips on the table to begin with.

Its classic downsizing, straight out an executive boardroom. .

GW pretty much has all its eggs in one basket and has for quiet sometime now.

I'm still not so sure. Despite the god-awful, no effort rules, they've still obviously sunk a ton into this "game" in development costs. Sculpting, steel molds for the models, art, background material. All of that stuff adds up. Sure, they've cut costs, especially with the Sigmarines, but not that much. A small corporation like GW can't afford for a major product launch like this to fail, or even only break even.

 Guildsman wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:

TBM wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:
I used to not care. Now, I'm feeling kind of sad, because I very much expect Age of Sigmarines to fail. And if AoS fails, GW as a whole won't be far behind.

If GW goes down, Warhammer in all its forms goes with it. D&D went through a similar crisis, and only barely survived, despite being a household name. If D&D can come so close to failure, Warhammer is doomed.

Ahaha no.

The success or failure of GW rested solely on 40K. With AoS with their limited releases and digital halfassed rules they aren't taking much in the way of risk. New armies/model releases will only be a few core sets with the rest very limited and only what they know will sell. GW won't suffer fianancially from this because they're putting minimal chips on the table to begin with.

Its classic downsizing, straight out an executive boardroom. .

GW pretty much has all its eggs in one basket and has for quiet sometime now.

I'm still not so sure. Despite the god-awful, no effort rules, they've still obviously sunk a ton into this "game" in development costs. Sculpting, steel molds for the models, art, background material. All of that stuff adds up. Sure, they've cut costs, especially with the Sigmarines, but not that much. A small corporation like GW can't afford for a major product launch like this to fail, or even only break even.

But 40k made some 88% of their profits, which are only slowly declining.

There's no real playtesting anymore as theres no points costs. No need for balance means rules can be unashamedly designed to shift product. Limited releases and digital only rules will cut down on shipping costs and chance of product stagnating. The three core regiments and new limited updates depending on profits is much less risk than launching new editions of WHFB. They look at the savings they can make long term. AoS allows a child to buy one squad of sigmarines and play a game without needing to make an army list or buy an expensive rulebook. On top of this, the move has been made from Warhammer to Superhero-hammer in terms of design. Large bulky demigods against overmuscled bare chested khornates, both wielding oversized "extreme" weapons. Push wish fulfillment an sell toy soldiers to kids is their mantra. Forget subtlety.

TBM wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:

TBM wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:
I used to not care. Now, I'm feeling kind of sad, because I very much expect Age of Sigmarines to fail. And if AoS fails, GW as a whole won't be far behind.

If GW goes down, Warhammer in all its forms goes with it. D&D went through a similar crisis, and only barely survived, despite being a household name. If D&D can come so close to failure, Warhammer is doomed.

Ahaha no.

The success or failure of GW rested solely on 40K. With AoS with their limited releases and digital halfassed rules they aren't taking much in the way of risk. New armies/model releases will only be a few core sets with the rest very limited and only what they know will sell. GW won't suffer fianancially from this because they're putting minimal chips on the table to begin with.

Its classic downsizing, straight out an executive boardroom. .

GW pretty much has all its eggs in one basket and has for quiet sometime now.

I'm still not so sure. Despite the god-awful, no effort rules, they've still obviously sunk a ton into this "game" in development costs. Sculpting, steel molds for the models, art, background material. All of that stuff adds up. Sure, they've cut costs, especially with the Sigmarines, but not that much. A small corporation like GW can't afford for a major product launch like this to fail, or even only break even.

But 40k made some 88% of their profits, which are only slowly declining.

There's no real playtesting anymore as theres no points costs. No need for balance means rules can be unashamedly designed to shift product. Limited releases and digital only rules will cut down on shipping costs and chance of product stagnating. The three core regiments and new limited updates depending on profits is much less risk than launching new editions of WHFB. They look at the savings they can make long term. AoS allows a child to buy one squad of sigmarines and play a game without needing to make an army list or buy an expensive rulebook. On top of this, the move has been made from Warhammer to Superhero-hammer in terms of design. Large bulky demigods against overmuscled bare chested khornates, both wielding oversized "extreme" weapons. Push wish fulfillment an sell toy soldiers to kids is their mantra. Forget subtlety.

Maybe you're right. Maybe my feeling is wishful thinking more than anything else.

Either way, it's crap. They're doubling down on all of the worst aspects of their games, going for "EXTREME" over quality and depth. Third-rate, comic book level writing married to third-rate, comic book level aesthetics.

You're forgetting too, there's going to be a large investment with the new factions and armies. I fully expect them to release new models for everything and phase the old stuff out. (The end times models actually currently fit the new asthetic, so they'd be safe)

Remember, they added this whole faction of merc dwarves named "Fireslayers" right? We're bound to see them in model form soon. AoS is going to be taking up a *lot* of resources to churn out new models/factions. I don't think they'd waste time blowing up the old world just to keep *everything* looking the same, obviously there's going to be a lot of new stuff incoming.

If AoS fails, then GW has virtually wasted those resources, unless the models appeal to the conversion crowds who buy fantasy stuff for 40K, then if AoS players don't buy into them, and they sit on shelves, then truly GW will be up a creek without a paddle, they need to put more thought into a balanced, structured ruleset so people don't lose interest. Dumping all your toys on the table and rolling dice in a big combat phase is fun, for like, 30 seconds. but there needs to be more behind the game to get people to keep playing.