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 Psienesis wrote:
Want one guy dead as dead gets in a toe-to-toe fight? The Custodes is your optimal choice.

Even an Astartes who excels at toe to toe fights, like Kharn, Sigismund or Lucius? Always the correct answer is Lucius because if he loses he wins

I was flicking through the 7th Ed fluff book this morning and the titbit on the Custodes says that they are produced in the same arcane way as the Astartes. So much confusion followed. I thought, and every other bit of fluff before it seem to mention this on their origins, that weren't created in the same way.

I didn't dig through Collected Visions though, which I guess would be the contradicting source, or any of the heresy series.

Custodes probably get their gene-seed from the Emperor himself

They were basically the next stage of the Emperor's super-engineered soldiers after the Thunder Warriors, a prototype concept. Emprah ultimately went with the Astartes model and the Primarchs

But from other sources, they don't have gene-seed. Which is where the confusion comes from.

The Custodes were around the same time as the Thunder Warriors so likely had the same kind of creation process.

 lordseamus wrote:
I have also read in the Lexicanum that some or all (?) go without armor and are tattooed in the post heresy era. ? Seriously?

Something to remember is that they don't go into combat like that, but this is how they are when going about the Imperial Palace and not decapitating Daemons, standing guard duty, etc.

Would they need a gene seed if they are grown in a tank?

No they wouldn't need a gene seed--they must be indoctrinated to be ultra loyal and trained to be ultra great warriors. Maybe it is true that they have some of the Emperor's dna--thus they are not corruptible.(?)

DNA doesn't actually render anyone incorruptible.

There are two confirmed incorruptible human groups in 40k and one presumed incorruptible group.

Confirmed incorruptibles are Grey Knights and Adepta Sororitas.

Grey Knights use a mix of ritual, technology, specially designed psionics and mental discipline to hold corruption at bay.

Sororitas use a mix of ritual, faith and mental discipline to hold corruption at bay.

Custodes... we don't actually know about, but probably a mix of both methods.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Confirmed incorruptibles are Grey Knights and Adepta Sororitas.

Do you see Sabathiel waving from that hill over there?

Sabathiel's only appearances are from a third-party CCG and a short story written to support said CCG. She's not a studio character.

As far as the GK go, however, latest GK codex outright states their geneseed is directly descended from the God-Emperor, and this is now the source of their incorruptible nature. Prior to this, however, it was a mix of training, faith, and sorcery.

Yes--and that is why I was thinking that the Emperor's dna did make others that possessed it incorruptible to the ruinous powers.

 lordseamus wrote:
No they wouldn't need a gene seed--they must be indoctrinated to be ultra loyal and trained to be ultra great warriors. Maybe it is true that they have some of the Emperor's dna--thus they are not corruptible.(?)

Even Astartes do, but it's much watered down. From Father to Primarch to Astartes.

 Rasclomalum wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Isn't it The First Heretic and where Argel Tal is watching the Custodes spar?

That is correct, I just read it a couple of days ago. While the WB are making a world compliant during their post-Monarchia pilgrimage frenzy, Argel Tal and his squad are watching the Custodes fighting and they notice something strange about how they fight. They quickly realise that the Custodes are not fighting as a unit but as individual warriors. That very word is used - the Custodes are warriors, not soldiers like the Astartes. A point is made about how the Word Bearers wear grey armour and fight in packs like the wolves they chromatically resemble, whereas the golden Custodes fight individually like lions. Space Marines sure like the whole wolf vs lion thing.

I found that comparison hilarious when one considers Lions hunt in Packs

Bear in mind that they're intended to be different things. The Custodes aren't really soldiers.

Yes, they are ridiculously gifted fighters, such that they are a tier above astartes in physical capabiity, but ultimately their job is not fighting on the battlefield.

The Space Marines are supposed to be the ultimate soldiers. The Custodians are the ultimate bodyguards.

Which is why they do what they do - they don't give a damn about the survival of their peers because they have one job, and one job only; the protection of their principal. It's the same reason why when Dorn, in Nemesis, is trying to outline the difference between "the good of the Emperor" and "the good of the Imperium", he gets a blank look from Valdor, whose world-view doesn't include the possibility that those could ever be two different things.

That is a pretty keen view, locarno24--I think I am going to start rereading all the HH novels--to start looking for little things such as the one you just mentioned.

 lordseamus wrote:
That is a pretty keen view, locarno24--I think I am going to start rereading all the HH novels--to start looking for little things such as the one you just mentioned.

Specifically for Custodes you'll want to read

A Thousand Sons
The First Heretic
Blood Games (Tales of Heresy)
Nemesis
The Outcast Dead
Deliverance Lost
Prospero Burns

That's all I can think of at the moment.

@Pilau Rice--Thanks!

Visions of Heresy, the big £45 book is another great source of info on the custodians.

I have that--great book!!!

Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Confirmed incorruptibles are Grey Knights and Adepta Sororitas.

Do you see Sabathiel waving from that hill over there?

Oh, hi, Alaric, I didn't see you there.

The HH series explains that they are hand made by the Emperor and so are not born human and then mutated by gene seed like the Astartes are. They are all mighty warriors and superior to an Astartes, this is mentioned several times in the books. However they are lone wolfs, and do not work as well in packs as the Astartes does. So you could say where teamwork is needed the Astartes are superior, but individually the Custodes are superior.

locarno24 wrote:
Bear in mind that they're intended to be different things. The Custodes aren't really soldiers.

Yes, they are ridiculously gifted fighters, such that they are a tier above astartes in physical capabiity, but ultimately their job is not fighting on the battlefield.

The Space Marines are supposed to be the ultimate soldiers. The Custodians are the ultimate bodyguards.

Which is why they do what they do - they don't give a damn about the survival of their peers because they have one job, and one job only; the protection of their principal. It's the same reason why when Dorn, in Nemesis, is trying to outline the difference between "the good of the Emperor" and "the good of the Imperium", he gets a blank look from Valdor, whose world-view doesn't include the possibility that those could ever be two different things.

You just perfectly described 30k Custodes, but 40k Custodes spend much of their time battling Chaos Daemons that slip through the Webway. With the Astronomicon weakening, it seems likely that more Daemons would be breaking through, as well, so Custodes inevitably do boatloads of squad-level combat in 40k, which means that their training is likely quite different.

 dusara217 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Bear in mind that they're intended to be different things. The Custodes aren't really soldiers.

Yes, they are ridiculously gifted fighters, such that they are a tier above astartes in physical capabiity, but ultimately their job is not fighting on the battlefield.

The Space Marines are supposed to be the ultimate soldiers. The Custodians are the ultimate bodyguards.

Which is why they do what they do - they don't give a damn about the survival of their peers because they have one job, and one job only; the protection of their principal. It's the same reason why when Dorn, in Nemesis, is trying to outline the difference between "the good of the Emperor" and "the good of the Imperium", he gets a blank look from Valdor, whose world-view doesn't include the possibility that those could ever be two different things.

You just perfectly described 30k Custodes, but 40k Custodes spend much of their time battling Chaos Daemons that slip through the Webway. With the Astronomicon weakening, it seems likely that more Daemons would be breaking through, as well, so Custodes inevitably do boatloads of squad-level combat in 40k, which means that their training is likely quite different.

They're still defending the Emperor's person, since he's right there in the Imperial Palace, where the Custodes are, and where that gate is they're slipping out of. They still don't do squad-level training, because daemons don't do squad-level training, they're just beasts.

The Astronomican has nothing to do with keeping daemons out of realspace. That isn't what it's for, at all. It's a navigational aid to guide ships through the Warp. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 Psienesis wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Bear in mind that they're intended to be different things. The Custodes aren't really soldiers.

Yes, they are ridiculously gifted fighters, such that they are a tier above astartes in physical capabiity, but ultimately their job is not fighting on the battlefield.

The Space Marines are supposed to be the ultimate soldiers. The Custodians are the ultimate bodyguards.

Which is why they do what they do - they don't give a damn about the survival of their peers because they have one job, and one job only; the protection of their principal. It's the same reason why when Dorn, in Nemesis, is trying to outline the difference between "the good of the Emperor" and "the good of the Imperium", he gets a blank look from Valdor, whose world-view doesn't include the possibility that those could ever be two different things.

You just perfectly described 30k Custodes, but 40k Custodes spend much of their time battling Chaos Daemons that slip through the Webway. With the Astronomicon weakening, it seems likely that more Daemons would be breaking through, as well, so Custodes inevitably do boatloads of squad-level combat in 40k, which means that their training is likely quite different.

They're still defending the Emperor's person, since he's right there in the Imperial Palace, where the Custodes are, and where that gate is they're slipping out of. They still don't do squad-level training, because daemons don't do squad-level training, they're just beasts.

The Astronomican has nothing to do with keeping daemons out of realspace. That isn't what it's for, at all. It's a navigational aid to guide ships through the Warp. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

We don't know if the Astronomicon is maintained by the Emperor or not, and, if it does derive its power from him, then it could be a sign of his body's strength waning and him being closer to death than usual.
Also, did you seriously just call Daemons beasts? Seriously? Could a beast have infiltrated a Primarch's mind and caused him to fall to Chaos all while maintaining the pretense of just being Fulgrim's conscience? Could a beast coordinate the fall of entire sectors? Utilize intricate stratagems to bring about the fall of entire species to Chaos? I think not.

Anyways, first of all, if the Daemons were breaking into the Emperor's throne room, he would have been dead by now. I don't care how powerful the Custodes are, at least one daemon would have made it through in the last 10k years and desecrated the Emperor's body (though he might be capable of defending himself through SPEHSS MAGIK!!!). I highly doubt that the Custodes are still focusing on just protecting the Emperor, they likely always have a contingent protecting his person, but most of them would be killing Daemons and keeping them out of the Throne Room in the first place. If the Custodes were not doing squad-level training, they likely would be less effective in combating the Daemons that leaked through, and I highly doubt that they would allow themselves any kind of weakness.

My impression has been that the Custodes are to the Emperor as the Primarchs are to the Astartes, in terms of power and ability. Whether this means the Custodes are functionally the "gene-sons" of the Emperor in the way that Astartes are of their Primarchs, I don't know. It's a muddled issue because, of course, the Primarchs themselves are called gene-sons of the Emperor.

My instinct is to read the Custodes as being "generic" gene-sons of the Emperor in the same way that Astartes are "generic" gene-sons of their Primarch, whereas the Primarchs themselves are "customised" gene-sons of the Emperor, each one embodying one of the Emperor's specific virtues or powers or traits - but I don't know if this is supported by the full range of material.

To me, the Primarchs stand above the Custodes in terms of power because they are singular expressions of a focused design, whereas the Custodes are more like "all-rounder" posthumans. If you scale down the full expression of the Emperor's traits, you get the Custodes; if you do the same but then focus on enhancing one trait among the others to peak capacity, you get a Primarch.

Who knows--maybe the Custodes are a 'first run' on the Emperor's genetics before he made the Primarch's. (?)