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The Dark Ages actually had fairly extensive technological regression in a number of areas, most-notably the arts and civil engineering, some of which would not return until the Renaissance, or even later.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Warhammer 40K is not a sci-fi setting like Star Trek, with a bunch of fancy, whiz-bang tech and speedy ships...

.... it's the Dark Ages, in space. An age of fear, superstition, zealotry and persecution of the "Other".

*raises hand*

B-b-b-but there were Dark Ages in history, and no technological regression in the times.

Well, the IoM isn't actually regressing, it's just progressing really slowly. The HH was basically the massive regression (see: Fall of Rome), and the next 10k years were just filled with superstitious gits ruling with an iron fist and badass tech that gets an improvement every few centuries (see: the Dark Ages)

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Warhammer 40K is not a sci-fi setting like Star Trek, with a bunch of fancy, whiz-bang tech and speedy ships...

.... it's the Dark Ages, in space. An age of fear, superstition, zealotry and persecution of the "Other".

*raises hand*

B-b-b-but there were Dark Ages in history, and no technological regression in the times.

My axe will bring a dark age to your face, but not that hard because I want to clean the skull afterwards. Someone was good this year and gets a present under the throne.

Anyways. Myself I don't recall anything about the Imperium being in regression. Humanity has had regression before the Imperium was created but I don't think it has since. What is described of the Imperium is that it's stagnating, not completely stagnant but stagnating. Some progression is being made but it's all under heavy scrutiny followed by all kinds of religious rituals and also subject to an overbloated bureaucracy.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Dark Ages actually had fairly extensive technological regression in a number of areas, most-notably the arts and civil engineering, some of which would not return until the Renaissance, or even later.

No, technology was marching on as it always does, with metallurgy peaking well above the Roman Era and the arts were doing perfectly fine. "The Dark Ages" is a mythical time invented by pop culture that is also highly Western Euro-Centric, and ignores that Scandinavians were not uncultured barbarians, but highly advanced oceanic traders who moonlighted as real-life Chaos Warriors on Sundays. Any "decline" in Western Europe began well before the traditional time period (IE not the Viking Age) and rather during the twilight years of Rome as it began to economically and politically crack as its armies and industry waned.

 dusara217 wrote:

Well, the IoM isn't actually regressing, it's just progressing really slowly. The HH was basically the massive regression (see: Fall of Rome), and the next 10k years were just filled with superstitious gits ruling with an iron fist and badass tech that gets an improvement every few centuries (see: the Dark Ages)

On the contrary:

Codex Cult Mechanicus wrote:Ultimately, though, the Cult’s citadels of knowledge are built upon a foundation of lies. The ability to truly innovate has long been lost, replaced with a reverence for the times when Humanity was the architect of its own destiny. No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of discernment and comprehension. Even the theoretically simple process of activating a weapon is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. And yet so long as the process works – or rather, so long as the Cult’s armies can obliterate those who displease them – the Tech-Priests are content to tread the slippery path toward entropy and ignorance.

There's also the bit in the Imperium's timeline that notes that the amount of STC fragments they found in that time manages to offset the Mechanicus' regression for a time.

7th edition rulebook wrote:The Forging

The Imperium expands and binds its most important star systems under ever tighter control. Astropath choirs are set in relay positions across the galaxy, with major hubs on the best-garrisoned worlds such as Armageddon, Bakka and Macragge. The Adeptus Ministorum becomes the official religion of the Imperium, adding new measures of control over the masses. A few long-lost STCs are rediscovered, and for a time, the technological decline is stabilised. Without the Emperor’s guidance, there is much room for interpreting the best direction for the Imperium. To avoid prolonged dissension, strict rules are put in place and punishments for disobedience are swift and brutal. Fear rules the highest levels of authority, and ignorance rules the lower menials. The established rule becomes harsher and more widespread than ever.

They're also losing the secrets of making Rhinos over time according to the Inquisition codex.

The Rhino armoured transport is one of the most venerated vehicles in service to the Imperium. Its origins lie far back in the murky mists of time, from when Man first reached out his hand to the stars and began the long process of colonisation. Little has changed in the Rhino’s design since those halcyon days, for its optimal balance of transport capacity, armour and manoeuvrability has been judged unassailably perfect by the Adeptus Mechanicus. It is small surprise therefore that the Rhino once served as the mainstay transport of all Mankind’s armies. Alas, in these dark days, many secrets of the Rhino’s construction have been lost, and countless thousands of vehicles have fallen into disrepair. Despite this, such august bodies as the Adeptus Astartes or the Inquisition have little difficulty in securing sufficient Rhino APCs to suit their needs.

In response to the first quote, you basically just reaffirmed the fact that the AdMech is incredibly superstious, not that it's regressing.
In response to the second quote, we still have many examples of Rhinos being constructed, and of Titan parts being constructed with ease. Now, I would cite this, but the novel Priests of Mars is currently back home in AZ, and I'm up in Alaska visiting my cousins. I'll be home by tomorrow, and I'll post the quote, then.

 dusara217 wrote:

Spoiler:

TCF wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Well, the IoM isn't actually regressing, it's just progressing really slowly. The HH was basically the massive regression (see: Fall of Rome), and the next 10k years were just filled with superstitious gits ruling with an iron fist and badass tech that gets an improvement every few centuries (see: the Dark Ages)

On the contrary:

Codex Cult Mechanicus wrote:Ultimately, though, the Cult’s citadels of knowledge are built upon a foundation of lies. The ability to truly innovate has long been lost, replaced with a reverence for the times when Humanity was the architect of its own destiny. No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of discernment and comprehension. Even the theoretically simple process of activating a weapon is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. And yet so long as the process works – or rather, so long as the Cult’s armies can obliterate those who displease them – the Tech-Priests are content to tread the slippery path toward entropy and ignorance.

There's also the bit in the Imperium's timeline that notes that the amount of STC fragments they found in that time manages to offset the Mechanicus' regression for a time.

7th edition rulebook wrote:The Forging

The Imperium expands and binds its most important star systems under ever tighter control. Astropath choirs are set in relay positions across the galaxy, with major hubs on the best-garrisoned worlds such as Armageddon, Bakka and Macragge. The Adeptus Ministorum becomes the official religion of the Imperium, adding new measures of control over the masses. A few long-lost STCs are rediscovered, and for a time, the technological decline is stabilised. Without the Emperor’s guidance, there is much room for interpreting the best direction for the Imperium. To avoid prolonged dissension, strict rules are put in place and punishments for disobedience are swift and brutal. Fear rules the highest levels of authority, and ignorance rules the lower menials. The established rule becomes harsher and more widespread than ever.

They're also losing the secrets of making Rhinos over time according to the Inquisition codex.

The Rhino armoured transport is one of the most venerated vehicles in service to the Imperium. Its origins lie far back in the murky mists of time, from when Man first reached out his hand to the stars and began the long process of colonisation. Little has changed in the Rhino’s design since those halcyon days, for its optimal balance of transport capacity, armour and manoeuvrability has been judged unassailably perfect by the Adeptus Mechanicus. It is small surprise therefore that the Rhino once served as the mainstay transport of all Mankind’s armies. Alas, in these dark days, many secrets of the Rhino’s construction have been lost, and countless thousands of vehicles have fallen into disrepair. Despite this, such august bodies as the Adeptus Astartes or the Inquisition have little difficulty in securing sufficient Rhino APCs to suit their needs.

In response to the first quote, you basically just reaffirmed the fact that the AdMech is incredibly superstious, not that it's regressing.
In response to the second quote, we still have many examples of Rhinos being constructed, and of Titan parts being constructed with ease. Now, I would cite this, but the novel Priests of Mars is currently back home in AZ, and I'm up in Alaska visiting my cousins. I'll be home by tomorrow, and I'll post the quote, then.

What it reaffirms is that the AdMech has almost no understanding whatsoever of their technology, from a Warlord-class titan to a toaster oven.

Codex fluff overrides crappy Black Library writing. Yes, the Imperium loses ground. It's not holding steady. Every time a Hive fleet, Ork Waagh, Necron dynasty, Chaos warband, or Tau expansion fleet takes a Forge World, knowledge is lost, sometimes permanently. Many Imperial weapons are made on less than a handful ot worlds. The Leman Russ Exterminator and Vanquisher are both made on only one. As simple as a Leman Russ tank is, and as common as they are throughout the Imperium, only two ForgeWorlds out of many figured out how to build the Vanquisher after the first was lost in M35, and one of those was recently gobbled by Tyranids.

Heck, in 6,000 years no one in the Imperium could figure out how to weld anti-aircraft missiles and a radar onto a Rhino chassis. Six... thousand.

Codex fluff overrides crappy Black Library writing.

Only in your own head. In GW's view, all fluff is equally valid.

 dusara217 wrote:
In response to the first quote, you basically just reaffirmed the fact that the AdMech is incredibly superstious, not that it's regressing.
In response to the second quote, we still have many examples of Rhinos being constructed, and of Titan parts being constructed with ease. Now, I would cite this, but the novel Priests of Mars is currently back home in AZ, and I'm up in Alaska visiting my cousins. I'll be home by tomorrow, and I'll post the quote, then.

It also makes it clear that they're losing knowledge with the end sentence.

The second quote outright says that they're regressing, you're thinking of the third quote with that second response.

Also, do you have a quote backing up your assertion that the Mechanicus is slowly advancing rather than regressing overall?

I'm coming a bit late to the discussion, but let's keep in mind that the Mechanicum is undoubtedly holding the Imperium back. I believe that if it weren't for them and their bizarre beliefs, mankind would be infinitely stronger.

Lets evaluate the facts.

The Mechanicum believes in "Machine Spirits". Hat this entails is that they apply a curtain of superstition and supernatural belief in basic technology interactions. Like the wiki says, even turning on a weapon requires the user to engage in a lengthy ritual, applying oils and chanting hymns to appease the non existent spirits. I'm all for freedom of religion, but this is stupid.

Directly related to the Tech-Priest's religion is their approach to innovation. Or rather, their lack of one. They believe that all the technology that will ever be made has already been made. The only step directly following that is to collect the plans and enact them. What this ensures is that innovation is discouraged- after all, there is nothing to innovate in their eyes. This causes knowledge to plateau, and maintain the risk of regressing if it is ever lost.

Lastly, and this is also the Emperor's fault, the Mechanicum are a bunch of xenophobes, just like literally the rest of humanity. Its a shame that they don't recognize their true place in the world- the Imperium may be powerful, but it's hardly the technological marvel the Martians pretend it is. I mean, a ton of problems could be solved simply by wiping out a few Eldar and Tau squads, lobotomizing their tech, and assimilating it. Rhino tanks could use gravitational lifts instead of archaic treads. Bolters could fire more rounds. Plasma guns wouldn't blow your hand off when overheating.

This is getting off topic, but I think nobody should defend the Mechanicum. I could say more about their backwards ways, but I've made my point. I highly doubt GW will listen because of the whole grimdark thing, but man... it would be great if at least one good thing happened.

 dusara217 wrote:
back home in AZ

Totally off topic, but holy feth another person who lives in Arizona and has an interest in Warhammer!

Might I ask where in the state you live? I've found finding people to play with out here.. difficult.

 urbanknight4 wrote:
superstition and supernatural belief in basic technology interactions. Like the wiki says, even turning on a weapon requires the user to engage in a lengthy ritual, applying oils and chanting hymns to appease the non existent spirits. I'm all for freedom of religion, but this is stupid.

While it is stupid, it's important to remember where this came from.

The religion and beliefs that the Mechanicus follow were originally established to preserve working knowledge of machinery and its function through dogma. So "prayers and applying oils" may be reciting how to properly clean and oil a rifle whilst doing so. Or "Disengage safety, set stock to shoulder, aim down sights, squeeze trigger."

Also machine spirits are hardly non-existent. In the background they are actual things. Not spirits, per-say, but code and logic systems that control the device and allow it to function.

Think less spooky ghost more program.

Depends on the machine spirit, of course. Its more that some machines have software that's mistaken for a manifestation of the Machine Spirit than that Machine Spirits are programs.

Besides, belief in Machine Spirits is hardly unreasonable. Anyone who has ever worked in maintenance will tell you that some devices work better if you ask nicely (or swear at them and kick them in some cases).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Also machine spirits are hardly non-existent. In the background they are actual things. Not spirits, per-say, but code and logic systems that control the device and allow it to function.

Think less spooky ghost more program.

And then you get Titans, whose machine spirit literally consumes the mind of the pilot.

That could be something akin to "Indoctrination" (from Mass Effect), which was machine-driven.

In any event, there's a lot of ways to explain "Machine Spirits", but to deny that they exist at all does the setting a great disservice.

The AdMech only holds humanity back from killing itself off with unrestrained technological experimentation. The manufacturing base of humanity is right-fethed, with all kinds of insane scrap-code floating around in everything everywhere. You can't just build a tank, you have to ensure that its Machine Spirit is placated, because if it isn't, as soon as it rolls off the assembly line, it might start killing you.

Anytime the Bureaucracy in 40k is brought up I think of the movie Brazil. Like that office, but about 1000x the size and with more skulls floating around.

Because its bureaucracy is set up to massive levels, and anyone who isn't a Lord General, Inquisitor, or other high-level authority has to go through some level of paperwork-- often quite a ridiculous amount-- and make sure it gets processed by under-funded, over-worked Administratum adepts who don't honestly care about your particular problem out of the thousands or millions they deal with on a day to day basis.

 Psienesis wrote:
That could be something akin to "Indoctrination" (from Mass Effect), which was machine-driven.

No, in the case of Titans its more the other way round.

The Princeps controls the Titan through a 'Mind Impulse Link', the device for which is called a Mind Impulse Unit or MIU. The Titan's processor started out as an interface that lets the Princeps effectively control the Titan as if it were his own body. It doesn't matter whether they use a plug or an amniotic tank, all Princeps connect via this MIU.

Over time, as Princeps wear the Titan for days, weeks at a time, their mind starts leaving an 'imprint' on the processor and in the MIU - especially as Princeps often die plugged into the MIU. What you end up with is basically a memory emgram in the Titan's hardware of every Princeps who has ever ridden the Titan, merging together into a gestalt entity with the Titan's onboard processor. This then becomes known as the Titan's machine spirit manifesting as every memory engram tries to tell the new Princeps (pah, he's only been doing this a hundred years, what does he know?) the best way to deal with everything.

@Furyou Miko The ghost in the machine!

As to machine spirits, etc. Don't forget that even the smallest scalpel has a tiny reflection in the warp.

 Icculus wrote:
Anytime the Bureaucracy in 40k is brought up I think of the movie Brazil. Like that office, but about 1000x the size and with more skulls floating around.

I'd like that to be the official imagery of the Adeptus Administratum in the next rulebook.


Damnit.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
Anytime the Bureaucracy in 40k is brought up I think of the movie Brazil. Like that office, but about 1000x the size and with more skulls floating around.

I'd like that to be the official imagery of the Adeptus Administratum in the next rulebook.


Damnit.

YES!

"Listen, this old system of yours could be on fire and I couldn't even turn on the kitchen tap without filling out a 27b/6... Bloody paperwork."

"This is information retrieval not information dispersal."

(source: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/quotes)

And people say that Orks are comic relief!

Mrs. Ida Lowry: Sam! Can't you do something about these terrorists?
Sam Lowry: It's my lunch hour. Besides, it's not my department.

Also quotes from Brazil. So just replace "Sam" with Inquisitor and "Terrorists" with Aliens, or Xenos, or Heretics. Obviously this inquisitor in question would be from one of the Ordos not responsible for the other.

Civilian: Inquisitor Samus! Can't you do something about these Xenos?!
Inquisitor Samus of Ordo Hereticus: I'm on lunch. Besides, it's not my Ordo.

 urbanknight4 wrote:
Let me explain. The first time I saw the massive time lag seemingly ubiquitous in the Imperium was when I was looking at the Space Hulk videogame. The Space Hulk was exhibiting problems or something, yada yada. The Imperium notices, and then they send a tactical squad of Terminators to deal with the problem- more than a century later.

I've been reading throughout the wiki and this happens everywhere and all the time. I get that the tech in the Imperium moves slowly thanks to the Mechanicum's weird religion, but that doesn't mean their responses to attacks and stuff should be equally sluggish. Besides.... a couple centuries to respond to a threat is kind of late, isn't it? It allows the fester to promulgate for hundreds of years while the Imperium does what exactly? I can't imagine that Warp travel takes so long- if so, Space Marines would probably die of old age instead of battle wounds with all the zipping around they do.

Its because the Imperium's bureaucracy is fething incomprehensibly massive. Think about how long it takes modern earth governments to do anything. Now multiply that by a million worlds, each generating far more data than our planet, and you can see how things get out of hand.

Warp travel doesn't take all that long its true, but getting the information into the right hands and for a decision to get made can take a very long time.

Entire worlds get misplaced because of rounding errors. A single misplaced letter in an order form can send expeditions to the wrong side of the galaxy. One planet got forgotten because a scribe misplaced their data file and they weren't rediscovered till it was found they had 1000 years of back taxes due.

A century is pretty good reaction time for the Imperium. And this is actually why Space marines operate independently for the most part, so they can be untangled from the uncountable amount of redtape in the Imperium.

You also have to imagine that every marine chapter has a huge backlog of issues and reports to sift through and prioritize.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 urbanknight4 wrote:
I'm coming a bit late to the discussion, but let's keep in mind that the Mechanicum is undoubtedly holding the Imperium back. I believe that if it weren't for them and their bizarre beliefs, mankind would be infinitely stronger.

Lets evaluate the facts.

The Mechanicum believes in "Machine Spirits". Hat this entails is that they apply a curtain of superstition and supernatural belief in basic technology interactions. Like the wiki says, even turning on a weapon requires the user to engage in a lengthy ritual, applying oils and chanting hymns to appease the non existent spirits. I'm all for freedom of religion, but this is stupid.

Directly related to the Tech-Priest's religion is their approach to innovation. Or rather, their lack of one. They believe that all the technology that will ever be made has already been made. The only step directly following that is to collect the plans and enact them. What this ensures is that innovation is discouraged- after all, there is nothing to innovate in their eyes. This causes knowledge to plateau, and maintain the risk of regressing if it is ever lost.

Lastly, and this is also the Emperor's fault, the Mechanicum are a bunch of xenophobes, just like literally the rest of humanity. Its a shame that they don't recognize their true place in the world- the Imperium may be powerful, but it's hardly the technological marvel the Martians pretend it is. I mean, a ton of problems could be solved simply by wiping out a few Eldar and Tau squads, lobotomizing their tech, and assimilating it. Rhino tanks could use gravitational lifts instead of archaic treads. Bolters could fire more rounds. Plasma guns wouldn't blow your hand off when overheating.

This is getting off topic, but I think nobody should defend the Mechanicum. I could say more about their backwards ways, but I've made my point. I highly doubt GW will listen because of the whole grimdark thing, but man... it would be great if at least one good thing happened.

Except of course you ignore the fact that Machine Spirits are very real things.

I always liked the idea of animal brains slaved to a titan or land raider. Think ED-209 but from birth.

All I can say is that if I were in charge of the Imperium I'd purge the Ministorium and Bueracraucy instead of the Heretics, teach the Ad Mech what actual progress is, and then devote all the forge world to learning each other designs and design a blasted Hyperdrive.

Wow, Saithor, why don't you go ahead and do that in real life, too? Gods know the Civilised West could do with an effective, efficient government!

 saithor wrote:
All I can say is that if I were in charge of the Imperium I'd purge the Ministorium and Bueracraucy instead of the Heretics, teach the Ad Mech what actual progress is, and then devote all the forge world to learning each other designs and design a blasted Hyperdrive.

That just ends in those three factions declaring you a heretic and executing you.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Wow, Saithor, why don't you go ahead and do that in real life, too? Gods know the Civilised West could do with an effective, efficient government!

Failed my perception check to detect sarcasm. In all seriousness though, you have to assume there are some people in higher level positions that know how screwy the system is and that it needs to be fixed. Warp can only partially explain how slow the Imperium is, the rest is the Imperium itself. I'm not saying it would actually work, I realize anybody trying it would be executed as a heretic, just my 2 cents.

Read up on the multiple philosophies of the Inquisition. Some think it really does need to be changed. Others think the system is fine and just needs to be streamlined or ironed out a little.