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The Dark Angels have never been the auto win army and I don't intend to change that. I purpose some rules and points changes to make the book just a tad more balanced and matched to the always superior Adeptus Astartes codex albeit this as close as we have ever been. Feel free to say I'm crazy or what I suggest is neither viable nor fair.

Eye of the unseen reduced to 20pts

Heavensfall Blade- change all 3 masters swords to the same profile and have this option as a relic to replace monster slayer of caliban for the same cost of 40pts.

Melee weapon Strength +2 AP2 Mastercrafted

Azrael- gain eternalwarrior. Drop feel no pain to compensate. Master combi-plasma can be used twice a game.
Belial- no further issues.
Sammael- no further issues.

Asmodai- blades of reason change to function as digital weapons. Gain special rule tenacity= challenges issued by this model may not be refused and admodai chooses who accepts. Also feel no pain. 150pts.
Ezekiel- no changes.

Space marine bike confers the Ravenwing Special Rule.
Add Raven pattern Space Marine bike as an option for 35 pts, bikes come equipped with twin linked plasma talons.

Company master- may take a space marine bike(this is so people can field their own 2nd companies from successors).

Land Speeder Vengence and Dark Shroud increase front and side armor to 11
Plasma Storm Battery burst fire is twin linked.

I may come up with more but what do you guys think so far?

Sounds pretty good to me overall, but a one thing is missing i n my opinion.

Add to the deathwing CAD - deathwing assault, you may choose half of your army (rounded up) to arrive from deep strike reserve automatically on turn one. The rest you may choose to arrive any turn after, there is no need for reserve rolls.

Means mono deathwing works again and is still different from GK CAD as you simply choose instead of rolling.

I'd say add back in Azrael/Belial/Sammy's "X as Troops" stuff, keep the Formations too, having both options available.

Azrael is overcosted as of right now, he should get Eternal Warrior without losing FNP, in my opinion. Belial and Sammael should have about a 15-20 pt decrease each.

The Troll(Dark) Shroud does not need an armor increase, it is already plenty survivable.

Instead of Making X Troops, the -Wing formations should give Objective Secured.

Breton wrote:
Instead of Making X Troops, the -Wing formations should give Objective Secured.

Never going to happen. Basically none of the alternate Detachments come with ObSec.

Disagree with bikes giving Ravenwing rule. For 20 points +1T, mobility, HoW and Jink is already pushing it. Giving rerollable jink on top of it is too much.

Instead extend the RW strike force restrictions to include ICs on bike. An inner circle guy will not ride like a RW, but will be there to lead the pack. Makes sense to have HQs on bike without the RW rule.

Ravenwing is just DA's chapter tactcs. Why people trying to make DA pay for chapter tactics as every vanila chapter gets it for free?

Look at Sammael. He gets Deathwing USRs (albeight a little diferent way) and Ravenwing USR. That's how it should be for DA ICs on bikes.

I was surprised everyone was fine with the sword reworks, thought there would be push back on that.

As for Ravenwing Rule I don't think if you have an entire unit of 10 black Knights rerolling 3s for cover giving it to you character who then cannot shoot correctly is so huge. Maybe it's just my meta but everyone ignores cover anyway here.

I resisted the troop options because I felt formations eliminated that and would by default make our characters less of an auto take.
In relation to that I like the deathwing assault rule coming back to get to choose to deep strike on turn 1 at least for the formation. Or maybe anything that buys a dedicated land raider does not have to deep strike.
Personally I like the new direction of formations because I always liked playing combined arms green/Raven/death I understand someone talking about the dark shroud being pretty resilient as is but that chassis armor value has to be better than a reg speeder.

As for sword, you took away Fleshbane from our primary monster hunter. Not cool. Belial does not need this S+2

And when you change Sword of Rave you shoul change Sableclaw pseudo vector strike too. And I think that +1S for Sammael is enough. It puts him in line with Black Knights. Also that way all Heavefall blades are different and uniq and different.

 Reinokarite wrote:
As for sword, you took away Fleshbane from our primary monster hunter. Not cool. Belial does not need this S+2

And when you change Sword of Rave you shoul change Sableclaw pseudo vector strike too. And I think that +1S for Sammael is enough. It poots him in line with Black Knights. Also that way all Heavefall blades are different and uniq and different.

I understand where you are coming from but I didn't want clutter up the errata with more rules than I had to. So I tried to streamline the swords which I don't think is too egregious. Also I guess I thought without saying sammys speeder profile would change as well.

In truth all our HQs are overpriced so instead of trying that I figured I'd buff them to be able to handle all situations. They all need like a 20-40 pt drop if I'm being honest.


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My next focus I think will be on our. Veterans which are so bland I am considering dropping them all together for honor guard equivalents.

Lions Guard Squad- Dark Angels who show exceptional combat prowess but lack the conviction to be inducted into the Deathwing. Armed and armored with the best equipment available each comes with a relic-blade, Stormbolter and clad in artificer armor each warrior a potent force on the battle field. Pretty much exactly honor guard with point adjustment for ws5 and relic blade over power weapon.

Just give our Vets special isue ammunition and they are golden. Do not need to invent anything)

So you want a sword that is equal to the burning blade in most cases, with master crafted, for fifteen points less? And no chance of hurting yourself? And you also want this at initiative ap2 for pretty much all of your special characters on top of that?

Sammael is your Marneus Calgar or Dante in this book, and you don't have to give up your lord of war slot for him.

I agree that the monster hunter is garbage, but if you want at initiative ap2 you either pay 50+ points for it or you are the sole special snowflake character in the book.

And you want to buff the Dark Shrouds survivability? Lol.

I think someone should be happy they are capable of building an army that is on the Eldar/Codex Marine/Necron level.

The swords of secrets are not special snowflake weapons, they are the originals, over the years chaos got the same weapon, then space marines, then the burning blade came out, so op asking for OUR unique weapon that everyone else has or had is not asking too much.

30pts for str 6 ap2 at I master crafted is fine, it's in line with other similar items like the axe of khorne, but no id which while situational is slightly better for the job of killing characters, 35pts is what gw prices the paragon blade (possibly 40) but that's +1 ap 2 specialist weapon I'd on a 6, so pricing conventions are all over the place.

I was saying the "X as Troops" back because you can by definition take different stuff in a warped CAD under the appropriate characters than you can in the special Formations, so it only makes sense to give both options.

 Formosa wrote:
The swords of secrets are not special snowflake weapons, they are the originals, over the years chaos got the same weapon, then space marines, then the burning blade came out, so op asking for OUR unique weapon that everyone else has or had is not asking too much.

30pts for str 6 ap2 at I master crafted is fine, it's in line with other similar items like the axe of khorne, but no id which while situational is slightly better for the job of killing characters, 35pts is what gw prices the paragon blade (possibly 40) but that's +1 ap 2 specialist weapon I'd on a 6, so pricing conventions are all over the place.

If by 'originals' you mean 'first codex to have a special character with at initiative ap2' then yes, by virtue of being the first codex of 6th. Belial and Azrael's blades were both ap3 in the previous codex, so there's no reason for them to be ap2 now. As for a purchasable relic, considering space marines pay 25pts for a relic blade that's +2s ap3, why would the Dark Angels get a sword that gets ap2 and master crafted for 40? Never mind the above suggested 40. 50pts? Fine. One less point of strength and master crafted for 5 puts less and no hurting himself or a inferior stat, blind, makes it better than the burning blade against most targets.

Forge World does not equal GW for rules writing. And the Paragon blade is practically an auto include, so obviously it's priced a little under what it should be.

I agree to your point that the paragon blade is underpriced, until you factor in specialist weapon, then it gets iffy.

3rd +2 str ignores saves, master crafted, any captain could take it, sword of secrets
The black sword, chaos space marines 3rd, same stat line
4th same stat line, Azrael only for some odd reason they retconned the fluff
5th space marines get access to the relic blade, same stat line
6th becomes ap3 for balance reasons I assume
6th dark angels still no access to our sword of secrets for anyone
7th, we finally get access returned to our relic blades

Now op wants tuse us back our weapon, bring uniformity to heavenfall blades and have it cost 40pts, yep that's fine, marines get unique access to the shield eternal (undercosted) and we get our true relic blade, all fair

Well, if it's the case that you really want those statlines but they're really OP for the cost, they could just be made more expensive.

No they are not remotely op, it's a cc weapon, good luck getting to use it, sure it can kill marines, strike at I and str 6, so I'd guard and eldar, relic blade does that for cheaper, can hurt mc easier, yep relic blade can do that too...for cheaper.

1 on one with a space marine chapter master, you get 3++, fnp most likely, eternal warrior, we get str 6 ap2 at I, no eternal warrior, possibly a 3++ and most likely no fnp due to most popular space marine hq use using a thunder hammer.

Op... Not a bleeding chance.

Hence why it was a case of "IF they're OP". If they're not, then what I said doesn't apply. It was just that some were saying "it's too overpowered for that price!", if that was the case the problem could be remedied by raising the price.

 Formosa wrote:
No they are not remotely op, it's a cc weapon, good luck getting to use it, sure it can kill marines, strike at I and str 6, so I'd guard and eldar, relic blade does that for cheaper, can hurt mc easier, yep relic blade can do that too...for cheaper.

1 on one with a space marine chapter master, you get 3++, fnp most likely, eternal warrior, we get str 6 ap2 at I, no eternal warrior, possibly a 3++ and most likely no fnp due to most popular space marine hq use using a thunder hammer.

Op... Not a bleeding chance.

Burning blade: +3s ap2 blind, incandescent (chance to hurt himself) 55pts.

Sword of Secrets: +2s ap2 master crafted 40pts.

Nope. Make it 50, two handed and a relic, fine. Don't compare it to the shield eternal, since it is a weapon where the shield is a replacement for a weapon.

My main problem was all special characters (Belial, azrael) having ap2. The only codex marine character with it is Calgar. Dante for the Blood Angels, Draigo for the Grey Knights, etc. one character per book. There would be 0 reason for Dark Angels to have more.

I just realized something about the "ravenwing special rule" doesn't an HQ choice joined with a unit get the rules that affect the unit? so unless your running a lone biker it's not really an issue? Still a huge fluke on GW yeah but I'm pretty sure that's how it works?

 Mordred wrote:
The Dark Angels have never been the auto win army and I don't intend to change that. I purpose some rules and points changes to make the book just a tad more balanced and matched to the always superior Adeptus Astartes codex albeit this as close as we have ever been. Feel free to say I'm crazy or what I suggest is neither viable nor fair.

Here's some further errata for your "balanced and matched" Dark Angels codex.

Land Speeder Vengence and Dark Shroud increase front and side armor to 11, Dark Shroud point cost increased to 105.

Ravenwing Jink: May reroll failed cover saves from Jink. Their cover save may never be better than a 3+.

 Quintinus wrote:

 Mordred wrote:
The Dark Angels have never been the auto win army and I don't intend to change that. I purpose some rules and points changes to make the book just a tad more balanced and matched to the always superior Adeptus Astartes codex albeit this as close as we have ever been. Feel free to say I'm crazy or what I suggest is neither viable nor fair.

Here's some further errata for your "balanced and matched" Dark Angels codex.

Land Speeder Vengence and Dark Shroud increase front and side armor to 11, Dark Shroud point cost increased to 105.

Ravenwing Jink: May reroll failed cover saves from Jink. Their cover save may never be better than a 3+.

That's fine on the Darkshroud idk why everyone gets defensive about it though. It doesn't kill anything and if you wanna kill it just run up and punch it with a melta bomb. And the jinking everyone cries about surprises me too. And when you jink 2+ or not your shooting becomes garbage for a turn. I feel like it all comes down to "I can't remove it in one shooting phase so it's OP" not trying to put words in your mouth it's not a personal attack.


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 Formosa wrote:
I agree to your point that the paragon blade is underpriced, until you factor in specialist weapon, then it gets iffy.

3rd +2 str ignores saves, master crafted, any captain could take it, sword of secrets
The black sword, chaos space marines 3rd, same stat line
4th same stat line, Azrael only for some odd reason they retconned the fluff
5th space marines get access to the relic blade, same stat line
6th becomes ap3 for balance reasons I assume
6th dark angels still no access to our sword of secrets for anyone
7th, we finally get access returned to our relic blades

Now op wants tuse us back our weapon, bring uniformity to heavenfall blades and have it cost 40pts, yep that's fine, marines get unique access to the shield eternal (undercosted) and we get our true relic blade, all fair

You hit the nail on the head for what I was going for, thanks have an exalt friend


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Reinokarite wrote:
Just give our Vets special isue ammunition and they are golden. Do not need to invent anything)

Your probably right, I just always felt the veterans fluff was weak and we deserved better. But to keep things less complicated I think that's the best path.

 Mordred wrote:

 Quintinus wrote:

 Mordred wrote:
The Dark Angels have never been the auto win army and I don't intend to change that. I purpose some rules and points changes to make the book just a tad more balanced and matched to the always superior Adeptus Astartes codex albeit this as close as we have ever been. Feel free to say I'm crazy or what I suggest is neither viable nor fair.

Here's some further errata for your "balanced and matched" Dark Angels codex.

Land Speeder Vengence and Dark Shroud increase front and side armor to 11, Dark Shroud point cost increased to 105.

Ravenwing Jink: May reroll failed cover saves from Jink. Their cover save may never be better than a 3+.

That's fine on the Darkshroud idk why everyone gets defensive about it though. It doesn't kill anything and if you wanna kill it just run up and punch it with a melta bomb. And the jinking everyone cries about surprises me too. And when you jink 2+ or not your shooting becomes garbage for a turn. I feel like it all comes down to "I can't remove it in one shooting phase so it's OP" not trying to put words in your mouth it's not a personal attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
I agree to your point that the paragon blade is underpriced, until you factor in specialist weapon, then it gets iffy.

3rd +2 str ignores saves, master crafted, any captain could take it, sword of secrets
The black sword, chaos space marines 3rd, same stat line
4th same stat line, Azrael only for some odd reason they retconned the fluff
5th space marines get access to the relic blade, same stat line
6th becomes ap3 for balance reasons I assume
6th dark angels still no access to our sword of secrets for anyone
7th, we finally get access returned to our relic blades

Now op wants tuse us back our weapon, bring uniformity to heavenfall blades and have it cost 40pts, yep that's fine, marines get unique access to the shield eternal (undercosted) and we get our true relic blade, all fair

You hit the nail on the head for what I was going for, thanks have an exalt friend

Sure, you aren't shooting anything, but nothing can kill you. And if something does try to charge you, they get hit with higher than normal BS overwatch.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No they are not remotely op, it's a cc weapon, good luck getting to use it, sure it can kill marines, strike at I and str 6, so I'd guard and eldar, relic blade does that for cheaper, can hurt mc easier, yep relic blade can do that too...for cheaper.

1 on one with a space marine chapter master, you get 3++, fnp most likely, eternal warrior, we get str 6 ap2 at I, no eternal warrior, possibly a 3++ and most likely no fnp due to most popular space marine hq use using a thunder hammer.

Op... Not a bleeding chance.

Burning blade: +3s ap2 blind, incandescent (chance to hurt himself) 55pts.

Sword of Secrets: +2s ap2 master crafted 40pts.

Nope. Make it 50, two handed and a relic, fine. Don't compare it to the shield eternal, since it is a weapon where the shield is a replacement for a weapon.

My main problem was all special characters (Belial, azrael) having ap2. The only codex marine character with it is Calgar. Dante for the Blood Angels, Draigo for the Grey Knights, etc. one character per book. There would be 0 reason for Dark Angels to have more.

Uh whut???
Calgar ap2
Pedro ap 2
Lysander ap 2

Dante ap2 aswell, grimnar ap2.... Wait a bleeding minute, Azrael is the only non ap2 lord of war chapter master, yeah me thinks you can go and cry in a corner or something, because heavenfall blades should be ap2 and at the very least Azrael should have been.

Burning blade is + 3 str, blind ap2, and 55, 40 for +2 ap2 master crafted.... Are you really arguing that +1 str and blind are not worth the extra points?

Infact I'm really hard pressed to think of a lord of war that isn't ap2 in combat?

Point of contention, Pedro and Lysander aren't Lords of War, and Lysander is a Captain, not a Chapter Master. But, I believe that Azrael is the only Space Marine Lord of War without EW or AP2. Though technically Azrael does have AP2 through his Combi-Plasma.

And none of the other characters in the Blood Angels codex have AP2. And in the case of Pedro and Lysander having AP2, they do, but it isn't striking at initiative.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Point of contention, Pedro and Lysander aren't Lords of War, and Lysander is a Captain, not a Chapter Master. But, I believe that Azrael is the only Space Marine Lord of War without EW or AP2. Though technically Azrael does have AP2 through his Combi-Plasma.

And none of the other characters in the Blood Angels codex have AP2. And in the case of Pedro and Lysander having AP2, they do, but it isn't striking at initiative.

My reasoning was never really based on other books necessarily at least about the swords. It comes mostly from the fluff and for making the characters good in their own right. The swords are ancient and crafted from a unique meteorite. In pandorax audio Azrael cuts through a space ship with his sword until he hits daemonic bone as thick as a vault door. They really should be the best swords and that's what I was trying to go for. The other profile I considered was: strength user. Ap2 shred and special rule obsidian crafted- successful invulns must be rerolled. Since the fluff says the meteorite was special because it pierced void shields that battleships can't.

An ancient relic forged in a supernovae of a fallen star is s+0 AP3 Blind. And its more ancient than the Imperium.

Being ancient doesn't make it uber.

And Master crafted is practically +1A, which is amazing on an I6 S6 AP2 weapon.

 Mordred wrote:

 Quintinus wrote:

 Mordred wrote:
The Dark Angels have never been the auto win army and I don't intend to change that. I purpose some rules and points changes to make the book just a tad more balanced and matched to the always superior Adeptus Astartes codex albeit this as close as we have ever been. Feel free to say I'm crazy or what I suggest is neither viable nor fair.

Here's some further errata for your "balanced and matched" Dark Angels codex.

Land Speeder Vengence and Dark Shroud increase front and side armor to 11, Dark Shroud point cost increased to 105.

Ravenwing Jink: May reroll failed cover saves from Jink. Their cover save may never be better than a 3+.

That's fine on the Darkshroud idk why everyone gets defensive about it though. It doesn't kill anything and if you wanna kill it just run up and punch it with a melta bomb.

Oh great, the old "just shoot it" or "just charge it" tactic.

Yeah after eating Overwatch from every unit within 24" thanks to Ravenshield.

And the jinking everyone cries about surprises me too. And when you jink 2+ or not your shooting becomes garbage for a turn.

Except for the Ravenwing formation where you shoot as normal after turboboosting.

I feel like it all comes down to "I can't remove it in one shooting phase so it's OP" not trying to put words in your mouth it's not a personal attack.

Then why are you giving it Front/Side Armor 11 if you're not supposed to be able to remove it in one shooting phase and if meltabombs can pierce it so easily?

I'm suggesting the 3+ max cover save from jinking due to the fact that there's so little in your way of actually achieving something so overpowered, and to balance out all of your other "errata".