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So, the Warscrolls are out! Just click a unit in the website, and you'll see a box in the bottom right with a link to its army's Scrolls. (And on a side note, I really like what I see here at first glance. The abilities for each unit are wonderfully flavourful and fun).

Too late to set about balancing tonight, but first thing tomorrow I plan to start running tests. My plan is to start with two units at their starting size, fight a couple of rounds, then adjust sizes up and down from there.

 Paradigm wrote:
So, the Warscrolls are out! Just click a unit in the website, and you'll see a box in the bottom right with a link to its army's Scrolls. (And on a side note, I really like what I see here at first glance. The abilities for each unit are wonderfully flavourful and fun).

Too late to set about balancing tonight, but first thing tomorrow I plan to start running tests. My plan is to start with two units at their starting size, fight a couple of rounds, then adjust sizes up and down from there.

Ah, so they are! Exciting stuff! I wonder what I'll find... Heading to my beloved Dark Elves first...

I'll spend tonight reading up on them and then I'm happy to give any help needed in any balancing that needs to be done!

Edit: First thing that's interesting to note is that certain units, i.e. Dark Elf Corsairs, have a minimum size for a unit, unlike much of what we've seen for the new models so far. I imagine this is a direction that's true for most existing units (especially infantry ones). That's interesting as many people have been going on about how units of single models are better... Though I guess it does make sense for the new stuff to be better...

Edit 2: Finished reading through the Dark Elf stuff... It's actually not that bad, and there are some decent things in there, even if the names of weapons are just silly and that the majority of special rules simply add +1 to a hit/wound roll or -1 to the enemy's. It's certainly a simple game and whilst that's not necessarily a bad thing, it is no doubt good for many people and for GW on a business side of things. I can see myself enjoying playing this game casually, if things get house ruled and balanced a little, but the problem is that I also enjoy WHFB and don't want AoS to make it harder for me to find a game of it.

I think AoS can be a good and strategic game, but the unit sizes realy need to be set, I was thinking about going through and making a quick list of suggested unit sizes for playtesting, mostly based on what we've seen in 8th.

My woodelves seem very flavorful and I can see how the synergies and tactics are going to be important. I've also been trying to see if there are interactions between forces of the same groups.

I could see that. One thing I think needs to come up is how powerful some of the large characters with many wounds are.

I mean, a 14 wound Bloodthirster is better than any warscroll's worth of goblins.

I think we need to have a more in depth system. Try to come up with a neutral (probably human) statline, and assign points for exceeding those stats.

True about the bloodthirster. But models like that can also be balanced by taking up additional slots. Like he counts as a hero and monster. Not you've limited the daemon ay more without resorting to points.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
I could see that. One thing I think needs to come up is how powerful some of the large characters with many wounds are.

I mean, a 14 wound Bloodthirster is better than any warscroll's worth of goblins.

Weirdly enough, from what I experienced today...it isn't.

I had a fair few games myself to get my eye in, but the best one was Khorne Daemons vs Orcs and Goblins. One guy had a unit of 30 goblins charge a Bloodthirster. They were hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s (due to a shaman casting Sneaky Stabbin'), and the Bloodthirster had its armour reduced by 1. The Bloodthirster was actually killed over 2 rounds of combat by goblins! Sure, he took a fair chunk of them with him, but their initial charge and the fact that the Bloodthirster was getting worse and worse for every wound it suffered meant that the goblins won the day.

I don't think I've ever seen that happen...

Anyway, that's a quick first impression, I'm gonna write up a longer post detailing my observations right away.

I think by far the easiest way to balance this game would be using the Formations listed at the bottom of the warscrolls compendium.

From what I can see, most of the formations look to be pretty equal to every other formation, so I think the best way to have even games would be to say that you and your opponent both use a certain number of formations (so you'd have a 2 Formation game) and that each unit in the formation must take the minimum number of models it's allowed (which will keep it equal) and that, if more expensive alternatives are listed (i.e. "Dreadlord, Dreadlord on Black Dragon, Dreadlord on Cold One"), you always use the basic, cheapest version.

Of course, you could then agree with your opponent to both take your leader on a Dragon or something, which would still keep it balanced.

Obviously this is a very restrictive method of play, but one I believe makes for the fairest games, at least until people get a sense of power levels and come up with some sort of standardisation.

And, speaking of this standardisation, the Formations can help us here too, as, assuming they are all roughly equal, we can use them to help work out potential "points" costs for units.

I was discussing this possibility with a friend, it seems like a great idea if both players have a formation they want to bring. What about the units within the formation though, how big can they get? There's no unit maximum after all.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:

Spoiler:

 The Shadow wrote:
I think by far the easiest way to balance this game would be using the Formations listed at the bottom of the warscrolls compendium.

From what I can see, most of the formations look to be pretty equal to every other formation, so I think the best way to have even games would be to say that you and your opponent both use a certain number of formations (so you'd have a 2 Formation game) and that each unit in the formation must take the minimum number of models it's allowed (which will keep it equal) and that, if more expensive alternatives are listed (i.e. "Dreadlord, Dreadlord on Black Dragon, Dreadlord on Cold One"), you always use the basic, cheapest version.

Of course, you could then agree with your opponent to both take your leader on a Dragon or something, which would still keep it balanced.

Obviously this is a very restrictive method of play, but one I believe makes for the fairest games, at least until people get a sense of power levels and come up with some sort of standardisation.

And, speaking of this standardisation, the Formations can help us here too, as, assuming they are all roughly equal, we can use them to help work out potential "points" costs for units.

I was discussing this possibility with a friend, it seems like a great idea if both players have a formation they want to bring. What about the units within the formation though, how big can they get? There's no unit maximum after all.

That's very true, which is why you'd probably have to agree that all units simply take the minimum number of models they're allowed. You could agree with your opponent that you'll both take one unit of 20 models each, or something like that, though I guess that would potentially skew the power levels, as some models could be more powerful than others.

Keeping to the minimum seems like the simplest option, if it seems grossly unbalanced you can always redress the numbers.

So far, of the Troop units, WoC seem the only one that need reducing; their base size has double the wounds and attacks of equivalent units.

So, for testing, I suggest:

Ogres: 3 models
WoC: 5 models
Lizards, Elves, orcs: 10 models
Empire, Bret peasants, Skeletons: 15 models
Goblins, Skaven, Zombies: 20 models


The issue I'm seeing so far is that for some units, certain weapons are just straight upgrades, which doesn't help. I'd ignore that for now while we hash out numbers, but I'm working on a few ideas.

So after some long discussion, some play testing and browsing I have what I would like to submit is version 1.0 of AoS Army Composition.

Rule Changes:
-Measure base to base using the bases that models were supplied with
-Rules for deployment and stopping early still work for this setup. Same with Sudden Victory with one change. Endure, pick one unit, at least one model from that unit must be alive at the end of turn 6.
-Games go 6 Rounds with a 4+ die roll for Round 7

100 Wounds allowed per army
2 Army Limit, must be same faction.

Warscroll Compositions:
1-3 Heroes
0-2 Monsters
0-3 Single Model Units
2-10 Other Units


-Any warscrolls that have hero and monster keywords count against both.
-Single unit restrictions are there to prevent spamming
-No unit size limits needed due to overall army unit restriction
-No duplicate heroes allowed
-Summon Spells are one use per army per battle. I.E. if 2 different wizards have the same summon spell, once one of them is successful, it can no longer be cast.
-Only Wood Elves may take any terrain warscrolls as part of an army and may only take 1 set of Sylvaneth Wyldwood


Some armies may have better units at certain spots, but that is the strength of that army, all armies have strengths and weaknesses. If everything was perfectly balanced, list building would not matter. So for this setup 10 chaos warriors = 20 goblins.

Using this idea I made a couple lists.

Allied Woodelf and Highelf flying force

1x Sisters of Twlight 12MH
2x (8)Warhawk Riders 2
1x Eagle 4
1x Lothern Sea Helm on skycutter 8H
2x (2)Skycutter 8
1x Flame Spyre Phoenix 12MH


Straight Forward Beastmen Mobs + Bluffs
1x Khazrak the One-Eye 5H
1x Great Bray Shaman 5H
1x Wargor Standard Bearer 5H
1x (30)Gors 1
1x (23)Ungors 1
3x (1)Chariots 6
1x (4)Minotaurs 4

Paradigm's suggestion seems good, I'll certainly give that a go, and will probably play test the High Elf Formation vs the Dark Elf one, and report back on that.

That's a decent start there Coyote, and I do like your restrictions, but I'm still not convinced that building an army by wounds is the best way. Sure, it's the easiest and simplest and wounds are the only constant, but remember that wounds aren't what makes a model powerful. I see more offensive builds being OP, considering that their strength comes in their power, rather than durability before wounds. But then again, I suppose the meta may shift towards offensive playstyles, which may even itself out.

Would a formula based on move, wounds, save, bravery, attacks, rend, damage, to hit/wound rolls of most powerful ranged and melee weapon be able to come up with a basic "points cost". So perhaps:

Wounds + Bravery + Move + (7 - save) + Attacks + (7 - to hit ) + (7- to wound) + -(rend) + damage, with the attacks etc done for both melee and ranged (if applicable).

So, a warscroll of Dreadspears (bearing in mind it's a scroll of 10 one would models) would be:

10 + 6 + 6 + (7-5) + 1 + (7-4) + (7-4) + 0 + 1 = 32points.

Obviously then you'd add on a few points for abilities and equipment, and then playtest to see if this system works.

 Coyote81 wrote:
So after some long discussion, some play testing and browsing I have what I would like to submit is version 1.0 of AoS Army Composition.

Rule Changes:
-Measure base to base using the bases that models were supplied with
-Rules for deployment and stopping early still work for this setup. Same with Sudden Victory with one change. Endure, pick one unit, at least one model from that unit must be alive at the end of turn 6.
-Games go 6 Rounds with a 4+ die roll for Round 7

100 Wounds allowed per army
2 Army Limit, must be same faction.

Warscroll Compositions:
1-3 Heroes
0-2 Monsters
0-3 Single Model Units
2-10 Other Units


-Any warscrolls that have hero and monster keywords count against both.
-Single unit restrictions are there to prevent spamming
-No unit size limits needed due to overall army unit restriction
-No duplicate heroes allowed
-Some armies may have better units at certain spots, but that is the strength of that army, all armies have strengths and weaknesses. If everything was perfectly balanced, list building would not matter. So for this setup 10 chaos warriors = 20 goblins.
-Only Wood Elves may take any terrain warscrolls as part of an army and may only take 1 set of Sylvaneth Wyldwood

You're also going to need to limit summoning, limit models with over 12 wounds, or sideline Nagash because as it is Nagash makes a mockery of the any comp system by himself.

Outside of that I like it as a start.

Additionally a unit maximum makes a bit of sense. Basically something along the lines of:

Min 3 - Max 12
Min 5 - Max 20
Min 10 - Max 30
Min 20 - Max 40

Somthing along those lines?

@Shadow: as a points system that does work, although it's a system that can run into problems if some stats just offer more than others (eg is an inch of movement 'worth' the same as an point of Bravery, which in turn might not be worth the same as an attack ect). Still, it's as good a base as anything else.

Another version would be to establish a base statline for an unarmored, hand weapon human at X points for Y models, then cost other units based on deviations from that. For example, instead of paying for each point of movement, you pay more for being faster than the base, less for being slower ect. Ultimately the principle is the same, but it saves calculating each unit from scratch. You'd need to use your original formula to work out the base cost, but from there you go from that rather than from 0.


For the moment I'm going to press on with trying to just match Scrolls, but I'm interested to see any results you can get with the above.

 Hulksmash wrote:


You're also going to need to limit summoning, limit models with over 12 wounds, or sideline Nagash because as it is Nagash makes a mockery of the any comp system by himself.

Yeah, Nagash is...problematic. I don't like to outright ban anything, it always seemed too blunt a measure, but at the moment we've banned him in our local community because you can just take him and win, every single time.

Summoning in general I think needs to be addressed - I had a small game against Lizardmen today and the Slann's ability to spam 3 summons a turn, and the relatively low casting costs of each (5-6+) means that in smaller games you just don't have the ability to keep up.

It wouldn't be too hard though - either just increase the casting cost or allow the summoned units to be 'unbound' in your magic phase, in lieu of casting a spell. That way you have two chances of dealing with it.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:


You're also going to need to limit summoning, limit models with over 12 wounds, or sideline Nagash because as it is Nagash makes a mockery of the any comp system by himself.

Yeah, Nagash is...problematic. I don't like to outright ban anything, it always seemed too blunt a measure, but at the moment we've banned him in our local community because you can just take him and win, every single time.

Summoning in general I think needs to be addressed - I had a small game against Lizardmen today and the Slann's ability to spam 3 summons a turn, and the relatively low casting costs of each (5-6+) means that in smaller games you just don't have the ability to keep up.

It wouldn't be too hard though - either just increase the casting cost or allow the summoned units to be 'unbound' in your magic phase, in lieu of casting a spell. That way you have two chances of dealing with it.

You could also set a cap of summoned wounds possibly.

A simple fix to summoning might just be to half the number of summoned minis for all spells like that. That and allowing summoned units to be 'banished' by an enemy wizard should do it.

I was thinking about summoning. What if it was a once per battle spell. Pass or fail you lose the spell.

For summoning you could do like what my group do for 40k summoning fix seems to work alright for them: any unit that is summoned is not allowed to summon more units so only the models you have at the start of the game can summon stuff

When I said once per game, I think I should say once per army per battle.

You can't summon Daemon princes to make more daemon princes. Nor will you be able to summon any unit more then once per battle.

Or perhaps a limit on only one summoned unit in play at a time. That way, Necromancers ect keep utility after their first summon, but can't churn out another unit until the last one is destroyed.

How about treating it as a deep strike? You buy summoned units normally and leave them in reserve.

Nagash just needs hand of dust fixed.

In this systems, without double saves, his 4+ doesn't last long. In fact, on average, 30 skeletons will kill him.

90 attacks, assuming some have spears, hitting on 2's. (+1 for Tomb King's My Will Be Done, +1 for Serve in Death, so from 4's to 2's.)

That's 74 hits, woundings on 4's. That's 37 wounds.

Nagash has a 3+ save? So 12 or so average through? Then you still have your archers and other units.

Just nerf Hand of Dust to d6 mortal wounds.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
Or perhaps a limit on only one summoned unit in play at a time. That way, Necromancers ect keep utility after their first summon, but can't churn out another unit until the last one is destroyed.

I would expand on this. Make it a concentration thing.

Summoned Units: Each unit summoned into battle requires constant concentration of the wizard that summoned it. As long as the summoned unit remains in play, that wizard may not attempt to cast any more spells, may attempt to unbind as normal, and can unsummon the unit at any time, removing them from play. A wizard controlling a summoned unit may fight in combat, shoot, or take other actions as normal. If the wizard dies, the unit is unsummoned.

Since they sit for a turn, it would discourage yo yo summons, but also add a tactical element on considering when it's no longer worth the time to maintain them. If this were the case, I would argue Nagash might have a increased cap of 2 units or something.

Also, I mentioned it earlier, but maybe take units with a combined hit and wound score of 10 or higher and make them count as half wounds when building armies.

Currently, that would include ..

Zombies, Goblins, Snotlings, Slaves, etc.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Nagash just needs hand of dust fixed.

In this systems, without double saves, his 4+ doesn't last long. In fact, on average, 30 skeletons will kill him.

90 attacks, assuming some have spears, hitting on 2's. (+1 for Tomb King's My Will Be Done, +1 for Serve in Death, so from 4's to 2's.)

That's 74 hits, woundings on 4's. That's 37 wounds.

Nagash has a 3+ save? So 12 or so average through? Then you still have your archers and other units.

Just nerf Hand of Dust to d6 mortal wounds.

That's a good point; between size bonuses and Commander Abilities what used to just be chaff units can actually be surprisingly nasty in AoS. I still think some SCs need toning down or costing more, but they aren't invincible like they used to be.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
Or perhaps a limit on only one summoned unit in play at a time. That way, Necromancers ect keep utility after their first summon, but can't churn out another unit until the last one is destroyed.

I would expand on this. Make it a concentration thing.

Summoned Units: Each unit summoned into battle requires constant concentration of the wizard that summoned it. As long as the summoned unit remains in play, that wizard may not attempt to cast any more spells, may attempt to unbind as normal, and can unsummon the unit at any time, removing them from play. A wizard controlling a summoned unit may fight in combat, shoot, or take other actions as normal. If the wizard dies, the unit is unsummoned.

Since they sit for a turn, it would discourage yo yo summons, but also add a tactical element on considering when it's no longer worth the time to maintain them. If this were the case, I would argue Nagash might have a increased cap of 2 units or something.

I love it! Simple, fluffy, and adds a good bit of depth!

Also, I mentioned it earlier, but maybe take units with a combined hit and wound score of 10 or higher and make them count as half wounds when building armies.

Currently, that would include ..

Zombies, Goblins, Snotlings, Slaves, etc.

Not a bad idea, only thing is if those units are ones that get the bonuses to hit/wound with size. Not sure they do, but it's worth checking otherwise they could end up being too 'cheap' for bigger units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another idea I saw elsewhere that might be worth throwing in:

Unit Size=(To Hit x To Wound)/Wounds

(ToHit x ToWound)/Wounds=Unit Size

i.e.
DE Bleakswords would be (3x4)/1 = max 12 models/warscroll.
DE Darkshards would be (5x4)/1 = max 20 models/warscroll.
DE Dark Riders would be (5x4)/2 = max 10 models/warscroll.


It's a good starting point, but we need to find a way to integrate Save, Special Rules and Attacks in there somehow or stuff with multiple attacks or a few good rules will be stupidly imbalanced.

Also, found this bit in the rules.


"Models added to your army during the
game (for example, through summoning,
reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do
not count towards the number of models in
the army, but must be counted among the
casualties an army su ers."

So if my army is 100 models, and I summon 20 more zombies who all die, it has a profound impact on the game scoring.

I've found that spear chukkas with a bully do wonderful things to Nagash.
2 shots each, hitting on 3+ with re-roll, wounding on 3+, rend -2 and D3 wounds.
Add in a pair of rock lobbers and doom divers, and you'll seriously thump nagash.

Add in a mob of wolf riders with bows, and you should be able to cripple Nagash in a single round.

Nagash can negate mortals wounds, but gets nothing special against normal wounds.

For now we'll be playing vanilla. Waiting on these scenarios to come along...

Since models no longer go by their old battlefield roles of 'core, special, rare' etc, I don't think using that comp system will work well. Especially for new players who don't know that lingo, since they won't own the books. Honestly, I think the easiest method is a wound system that determine what big beasties you can bring with you.

My proposed army system is:

Armies are composed of an agreed upon Would Pool, typically increments of 50. For every 50 Wounds, an army may contain one model with the Hero keyword, and one single model unit that has 10+ wounds. This comp increases by 1 for each type for every 50 wounds in your Wound Pool. For example, at 100 Wounds, you are allowed to take 2 Hero units, and 2 single model units that have 10+ wounds.

Edit: This allows each army at 50 Wounds (Smallest base game that allows hero units/big stuff) to be led by one hero and take a 'warbeast' with them if they so desire, though that eats up a lot of their wound total. It also allows for people to still bring things they want to field, without being too bonkers. If i own a giant, I can play him, but he's gunna chew up a lot of my Wounds in a 50 wound game, and I only get 1 so I better make him count, and my hero unit should be chosen to compliment my army choices as well with his command ability.

Melevolence wrote:
Since models no longer go by their old battlefield roles of 'core, special, rare' etc, I don't think using that comp system will work well. Especially for new players who don't know that lingo, since they won't own the books. Honestly, I think the easiest method is a wound system that determine what big beasties you can bring with you.

My proposed army system is:

Armies are composed of an agreed upon Would Pool, typically increments of 50. For every 50 Wounds, an army may contain one model with the Hero keyword, and one single model unit that has 10+ wounds. This comp increases by 1 for each type for every 50 wounds in your Wound Pool. For example, at 100 Wounds, you are allowed to take 2 Hero units, and 2 single model units that have 10+ wounds.

Edit: This allows each army at 50 Wounds (Smallest base game that allows hero units/big stuff) to be led by one hero and take a 'warbeast' with them if they so desire, though that eats up a lot of their wound total. It also allows for people to still bring things they want to field, without being too bonkers. If i own a giant, I can play him, but he's gunna chew up a lot of my Wounds in a 50 wound game, and I only get 1 so I better make him count, and my hero unit should be chosen to compliment my army choices as well with his command ability.

After having played more games I feel you are on the right track, but I don't think Hero's need to be limited. 12+ wounds on a model? Yes!

I've seen Nagash die to goblins and a spearchukka, killed a bloodthirster with 40 skeletons, and watched as generic heroes do very little.

If a guy wants to use 15 wounds for 3 wizards, let him.

I'd say ..

Play X wounds.
1 model per 50 wounds that has more than 12 wounds.
Models with a combined hit and wound of 10 or higher get 3 free wounds per 10 purchased.