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Eldar GCs are dead cheap and a 3+ save with a 5++ inv

Ork GCs are a bit more expensive but have what a 4+?

Its the 800 odd point GCs with 2+ save that is the problem usally with no inv as well. Ignoring the 2+ save is easy for anti tank weapons (las / plasma / melta) all ignore it but its the by passing the T that you pay so many points for.

Be the same as fighting knights and grav caused an immoblised result. Knights would just sit there rest of the game. But that would be broken reason they ignore that part

Worse case ever fight grav weapons and they insit on 2+ will run RAR put the foot of bio titan in a ruin. throw shrouded so got a 2+ cover save because it follows rules like an MC just need toe in scneery to get full cover save.

Did the math for creating gargantuan monstrous creatures as part of my vehicle design rules, wraithknights are exactly 100 points undercosted. I run them at that total, still have no problem with grav, poison, and sniper weapons doing full damage.

Edit: I make superheavy vehicles roll on the damage table, immobilized causes to move half speed, additional results just do extra hull points. They iignore shaken and stunned, weapon destroyed happens normally. The big toys don't ruin my games at all, as iit apparently does others here.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Did the math for creating gargantuan monstrous creatures as part of my vehicle design rules, wraithknights are exactly 100 points undercosted. I run them at that point total, still have no problem with grav, poison, and sniper weapons doing full damage.

Every one knew that all ready i think. But all the other GCs are under costed. If it is 1 unit of grav dev able to pop a GC turn 1 no problem. Either GC should have 3-4 times more wounds. Alot less points.


Or just give the big GCs a 3++ so AP2 still useful but things dont die as much

Bassline wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Did the math for creating gargantuan monstrous creatures as part of my vehicle design rules, wraithknights are exactly 100 points undercosted. I run them at that point total, still have no problem with grav, poison, and sniper weapons doing full damage.

Every one knew that all ready i think. But all the other GCs are under costed. If it is 1 unit of grav dev able to pop a GC turn 1 no problem. Either GC should have 3-4 times more wounds. Alot less points.


Or just give the big GCs a 3++ so AP2 still useful but things dont die as much

If this happens, make my Transcendant C'Tan a GC again. And make him cheaper. If not, then they're just fine as is.

Grav weapons are a deterrent in the meta to make you not want to spend all your points on big tough monsters. You counter grav by filling in points with weaker save units and out positioning the grav weapons. Grav only becomes an issue when you magic the crap out of them, and even then they are points wasted shooting at things like great gnarlocks and swarms. Counters to counters to counters makes the game challenging.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

Point me to a Melta Gun that is fully effective at 24'' range, multiple shots, easy access to re-rolls to wound and hit and can be placed wherever you like on the board turn 1. Go on. I dare you.

Metla can be bubble wrapped against, Melta is very vulnerable to scattering out of Melta range, certain units are immune to the Melta rule, Melta has limited ranged and Melta has 1/4 of the shots. How can these two weapons be at all comparable, even against there intended targets?

Grav weapons do not have a 33% chance on an effective hit to outright murder what they're shooting at, and Gargantuan Creatures don't have limbs blown off when they take damage but survive. Further, there are enough reliable melta delivery systems (Drop Pods, Termicide, Battlesuits, Dante etc.) that the range becomes a non-issue, as the units utilizing meltas have ways around that, just like bikes and Centurions ignore the Salvo part of the Grav-cannons due to Relentless/SnP.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

Point me to a Melta Gun that is fully effective at 24'' range, multiple shots, easy access to re-rolls to wound and hit and can be placed wherever you like on the board turn 1. Go on. I dare you.

Metla can be bubble wrapped against, Melta is very vulnerable to scattering out of Melta range, certain units are immune to the Melta rule, Melta has limited ranged and Melta has 1/4 of the shots. How can these two weapons be at all comparable, even against there intended targets?

Grav weapons do not have a 33% chance on an effective hit to outright murder what they're shooting at, and Gargantuan Creatures don't have limbs blown off when they take damage but survive. Further, there are enough reliable melta delivery systems (Drop Pods, Termicide, Battlesuits, Dante etc.) that the range becomes a non-issue, as the units utilizing meltas have ways around that, just like bikes and Centurions ignore the Salvo part of the Grav-cannons due to Relentless/SnP.

You still haven't addressed the dependency in volume of shots. And further more, you have only highlighted the range issue. Drop Pods can be Bubble Wraped against easily in the case of Tyranids and Orks and probably Daemons, Dante is extremely expensive way to not scatter and even then you need to find your way within 3/6'' to Melta. Battle Suits have 3'' extra melta range, but vulnerable to scattering out of melta range, Termicide is worse. And even then, if we consider all of these units get into range, then we need to consider that danger they are in for beign within 3''-6''-9'' of the enemy super heavy. On the other hand Grav Cannons can sit nicely on the 24'' mark, considerably safer from counter assault.

Grav has the range advantage, the ROF advantage, the Wounding advantage (Wounding a 3+ GMC with re-rolls vs Penning an AV 13-14 thing on 8+2d6) and none of the downsides of Melta when compared against there specific targets (Super Heavies and GMC's respectively).

In comparison, it's hard to argue that Grav Guns deserve to be as effective as they are.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
it's hard to argue that Grav Guns deserve to be as effective as they are.

A million times this.

"In comparison, it's hard to argue that Grav Guns deserve to be as effective as they are"

The only weapon keeping marines relevant is too good! Clearly, this is the problem. Not the continual decay of the value of T4 3+ units, nor the complete obsolescence of regular S4 shooting. Nor the unequal power distribution between the actual marine codicies.

Maybe grav wouldn't be so noticeable if other marine/Imperial heavy weapon were worth a damn.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Grav Cannon doesn't need to be changed. Gargantuan Creatures should be hurt when Gravity is used against them. "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" after all.

But to what degree? You have so many shots that can re-roll to hit through prescience and re-roll to wound via amps, it's utterly ridiculous how easily such an expensive monster can be brought down by these hand held guns. Also, Gargantaun creatures are usually massively resillient, why do you think some extra gravity should destroy them? A wraithknight is made of wraithbone, which is used in Space Ships, I'm sure it can survive a little extra gravity. It should wound on 6's, the only reason it doesn't is because they forgot to include it in the GC rules that already include poison and sniper. The reason i think this is i can't see any reason to make one so much better then the other.

Oh noes, Marines and other armies of the Imperium have a reasonable counter-tactic to Wraithknights! The Horror! It's not like the Eldar have ranged D on infantry, or the ability for the weapons they hand out to their militia to be able to slice through it!

Outside of a Skyhammer or a Centurion unit coming in a pod/coming with Draigo, your GCs should have nothing to fear. Bikestars Grav don't reroll to wound, and if normal devastators are in gravcannon range long enough to fire 20 shots, the GC player is the one that screwed up. Don't blame the game for that one.

As for the Skyhammer, a typical grav 10man squad costs 325pts. Are you then telling me a unit armed with a weapon that is designed to bring down large, tough models should then not be able to perform the function of brining down large, tough models? That issue can simply be solved by reserving the Wraithknight, barring your opponent going second. The Pod Cents have less shots, and again, reserves! As for Draigo and Friends, well, you play Eldar in this situation, and if anyone should be capable of shutting down enemy psychic powers, it is Eldar.

The game needs things that counter out other things - Grav weaponry being something that counters things that Imperial Armies do not typically have (GCs, MCS). If you place your big, expensive model and expect it to be immune to all weaponry, well, that is your fault, not your opponents or the game. I think the popular term is 'learn to play'? There are options both within the rules and within your codex that can blunt an alpha strike designed to cripple your large monsters.

I think most people are missing my main issue, so I'll repeat it.
I don't have an issue with grav hurting hvy armoured units, monstrous creatures, my wraithknight etc, I really don't. I think the mechanic is a cool concept. But typically, high strength weapons need a couple of turns to take down something like that from one unit. Reliably taking out such a volume of enemy/monstrous creature in one round of shooting is excessive. But truth be told, this is really only a problem with the skyhammer, regular deployed devs are less nasty and can be avoided etc. Centurions are OK because only 3 can fit in a pod and they are big nasties themselves. That still doesn't take away biker spam. Again, this may be more of a factor of army design than the weapon itself. If grav bikes were only available as 2 specials per unit, no problem. But seeing all of these "command sqds" with all grav seems odd. If the specials were more limited it would be fine, same with the scatterbikes. I feel that these days I need to bring a dustpan and brush to pick up my dead models to save time.
I guess the same can be said with wraithscythes dropped with a webway portal, another point and click unit, although I don't think they would take down a knight in one round of firing (they could, but statistically I don't think so). They would rape other units that grav rapes though. Now if Eldar had wraithscythe biker units, the world would surely end!

But the grav weapons are much more expensive than melta, and melta guns in drop pods have been destroying higher point value superheavies than wraithknights since they were an option.
Grav is supposed to be a deterrent. You don't take a pile of big nasties because there may be grav, you don't take a blob of peeons because the enemy may have a superheavy capable of taking them all out, you dont take grav because the enemy may bring piles of cheap bodies that grav is weak against.

Counters to counters to counters.

let's be honest, most of the no-save armies that are immune to grav are not top tier codexes, they have their own inherent weaknesses. And it's very easy for an army with grav to have a lot of things that hurt those too. Bikers for example, grav guns may suck vs no save infantry, but twin linked bolters still get the job done. Grav would still be a deadly choice if it were less ROF. Is there really a choice between a biker with a 15pt plasma gun or a 15pt grav gun? The 1st one hurts more targets sure, but it has less ROF, less range, can easily kill it's owner, and the bike has a twin linked bolter for stuff it can't reliably hurt with grav. The only middle ground seems to be Sv 4+ where the plasma may be better. But anything T7+ with armour is better vs plasma than grav.

I still don't know why grav has such high ROF, what's the mechanic behind it? How does it churn out more shots than an assault cannon?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You know how even Land Raiders have lived in fear of melta since pretty much forever? Yeah, that's what's now happening to MCs and GMCs. Monstrous Creatures have been so much better than vehicles for so long, having something that hard-counters them doesn't mean that the weapon that does so is broken.

Point me to a Melta Gun that is fully effective at 24'' range, multiple shots, easy access to re-rolls to wound and hit and can be placed wherever you like on the board turn 1. Go on. I dare you.

Metla can be bubble wrapped against, Melta is very vulnerable to scattering out of Melta range, certain units are immune to the Melta rule, Melta has limited ranged and Melta has 1/4 of the shots. How can these two weapons be at all comparable, even against there intended targets?

Grav weapons do not have a 33% chance on an effective hit to outright murder what they're shooting at, and Gargantuan Creatures don't have limbs blown off when they take damage but survive. Further, there are enough reliable melta delivery systems (Drop Pods, Termicide, Battlesuits, Dante etc.) that the range becomes a non-issue, as the units utilizing meltas have ways around that, just like bikes and Centurions ignore the Salvo part of the Grav-cannons due to Relentless/SnP.

You still haven't addressed the dependency in volume of shots. And further more, you have only highlighted the range issue. Drop Pods can be Bubble Wraped against easily in the case of Tyranids and Orks and probably Daemons

Jolly good for them. Try bubble-wrapping a Land Raider or an Imperial Knight if you're not playing a horde army where you can't afford to have anything stood around doing nothing. Different factions have varying levels of difficulty with certain weapons, melta and grav both being among them.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


Grav has the range advantage, the ROF advantage, the Wounding advantage (Wounding a 3+ GMC with re-rolls vs Penning an AV 13-14 thing on 8+2d6)

You're not taking into account the fact that melta, by virtue of being AP1, has a 50% chance to leave a Land Raider either immobilized or dead every time it penetrates.

Grav cannons tend to come with amps and so its 4/9 to wound against geq so 0.89 per 3 shots. Grav cents however will get to fire all 5 and often have a reroll to hit due to CT, so becomes 1.48 wounds against geq which is 2.7 times more effective than a lascannon.

I see the point of a 1000pt GC being killed by a 260pt unit in one turn of shooting at upto 24" is one of the worst examples of imbalanced game design in the entire game. If people can't see the absurdity of that then what on earth else would you consider imbalanced?

I'm not saying grav per se is unbalanced, against a 300 odd point wraithknight it's ok, but against a GMC which is 3 or more times the points? Not so much.

Aarrggh there were 3 pages! I was responding to the first page.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
To pen a LR a melta has to be in half range, hit, get a 7+ and then get a 4+ to immobilize or pen, taking that 50% down to 19%, and no melta has a melta range of 24" afaik.
Also a LR is 1/4 of the points of some of these GMCs.

The heirophant bio titan is 1000 points, but has 10 wounds, a 6+ invul save and feel no pain. It also gets cover by simply putsing one of its feet in a terrain piece while also pumping out 12 str 10 ap3 shots a round, and swinging at init 6 in melee with at least 8 attacks. It is immune to strength 5 or less also. There needs to be some counters to it, otherwise it won't be stopped. Let's not forget that offense counts for a huge chunk of points on the gargantuan creatures, it's not all survivability that the points represent.

The wraithknight has 3/5ths of the wounds, fnp, the same cover gaining ability and is immune to st5 also. Yeh its got very good offensive capabilities, but enough to be that much more than a WK in points? I'm not so sure.

Dreadknight kills a WK in a single round of combat. Nerf Dreadknight!

I only skimmed over the first page and some of this page but why not say snipers, poison and grav require a role 1 higher to wound instead?

snipers and poison wound on a 5+ instead, grav which normally wounds a wraith knight on a 3+ requires a 4+.

Wouldn't that be better? after all, what's dark eldar supposed to do against a gargantuan creature at the moment?

Poly Ranger wrote:
The wraithknight has 3/5ths of the wounds, fnp, the same cover gaining ability and is immune to st5 also. Yeh its got very good offensive capabilities, but enough to be that much more than a WK in points? I'm not so sure.

Wraithknights are not immune to S5.

Basically grav is total and utter rampant undiluted miserable bollocks.. they are supposed to be pre herasy but now everyone has 15.. they don't even have models that look even remotely good and who the hell ever got a "heavy 5" gun to hold of ANY kind.. let alone rerolls to wound.. forget any "grav" wounding mechanic think "any" gun... anything str7 5 shot.. ffs imagine if warp spisers were heavy 5 with their special wound profile.. just garbage

 krodarklorr wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The wraithknight has 3/5ths of the wounds, fnp, the same cover gaining ability and is immune to st5 also. Yeh its got very good offensive capabilities, but enough to be that much more than a WK in points? I'm not so sure.

Wraithknights are not immune to S5.

You are correct. Don't know why I thought that for a moment.

The heirophant is also 2+ armor, so basically ignores krakk missiles. The biotitan is also HUGE! It's footprint is about 10" across WO it being able to toe hug cover is significantly better than the wraithknight is. These things matter.

What is this power struggle of comparing everything to Eldar?

The Wraithknight is undercosted, no body in this thread has disputed that and everybody knows it. So why in gods name are you using the fact this is your best weapon against Wraithknights as a defense? ''This unit is cheese, so i must have cheese to defend myself!''?

Why don't you compare your Grav to what the OP is actually thinking about when he started the discussion, Tyranid GMCs. They are much more expensive then the Wraith Knight, don't have many more wounds and lack invulnerable saves. Sure they can get a nice save by standing in terrain, but he won't stay in that terrain as if he is sitting still and just shooting he isn't being a good use of points. So having this big expensive unit ganked by a single unit of Grav Centurions in a single turn is ridiculous. You say its a L2P issue, but 15 Grav Cannnon (3 Cents) shots against a Bio-Titian would do a little over 7 wounds i believe off the top of my head against 5+ cover, more with Ignore cover (Kill the Venomthrope or take Tigarius for Perfect Timing) and they can do that turn 1.

Eldar and Necrons shouldn't be the base-line standard here, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar and Orks should be.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
What is this power struggle of comparing everything to Eldar?

The Wraithknight is undercosted, no body in this thread has disputed that and everybody knows it. So why in gods name are you using the fact this is your best weapon against Wraithknights as a defense? ''This unit is cheese, so i must have cheese to defend myself!''?

Why don't you compare your Grav to what the OP is actually thinking about when he started the discussion, Tyranid GMCs. They are much more expensive then the Wraith Knight, don't have many more wounds and lack invulnerable saves. Sure they can get a nice save by standing in terrain, but he won't stay in that terrain as if he is sitting still and just shooting he isn't being a good use of points. So having this big expensive unit ganked by a single unit of Grav Centurions in a single turn is ridiculous. You say its a L2P issue, but 15 Grav Cannnon (3 Cents) shots against a Bio-Titian would do a little over 7 wounds i believe off the top of my head against 5+ cover, more with Ignore cover (Kill the Venomthrope or take Tigarius for Perfect Timing) and they can do that turn 1.

Eldar and Necrons shouldn't be the base-line standard here, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar and Orks should be.

"'This unit is cheese, so i must have cheese to defend myself!''? "

True in general for GW games.

"Eldar and Necrons shouldn't be the base-line standard here,"

But they are. You always compare against the best, not the middle.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
So having this big expensive unit ganked by a single unit of Grav Centurions in a single turn is ridiculous. You say its a L2P issue, but 15 Grav Cannnon (3 Cents) shots against a Bio-Titian would do a little over 7 wounds i believe off the top of my head against 5+ cover, more with Ignore cover (Kill the Venomthrope or take Tigarius for Perfect Timing) and they can do that turn 1.

Tyranid GMC's die just about as easily as our other ground based MCs. They lack invulns (or in the bio-titans case have a 6++), fleshbane still wounds on a 2+, and they go down to volume of fire. Grav is just another thing that takes them down.

Lets have a little comparison. The bio-titan costs 1000 points and shoots 12 S10 AP3 48" shots. For a little less than 1000pts, I can get 18 kataphron destroyers that put out 108 shots of grav at 30".

edit - meh removed the sarcastic comment

Whats the BS skill of the Titan?

BS 3 like any good Nid

Grav weapons need to be a threat, if they are not then people won't need fear anything on the table with certain units. The moment a unit becomes "auto take" the game and meta break down. The primary reason I think we see grav so prevalently in the tournament scene is horde armies are unpopular due to time restrictions. My local meta includes swarm nids, Ork trukk boys, imperial guard, and renegades. I've never seen people spam grav because there iis a serious chance it will do nothing. Grav seems powerful, but only because everyone refuses to not take things it is REALLY good at killing.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
There needs to be some counters to it,

The counter was for it not to be played outside of Apoc.