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 bullyboy wrote:

One thing I would change in the rules regarding bikers is that a weapon carried by the biker and not mounted does not get relentless. .

Now that... that would be interesting. And I could see it making sense too. Not only is shooting something like that from a bike difficult, that might not even be a factor considering other things marines are supposed to be capable of, but it would give some justification to other units. Black Knights and Legion Outriders mount special weapons of various sorts directly to the bike rather than shoving them into the arms of the rider. It makes for a better visual, in my opinion, and seems more reasonable with the whole driving a motorcycle through a gunfight business.

Martel732 wrote:
" What we are complaining about is HOW effective a Grav Gun is against Monsters."

We need grav against monsters, otherwise they will be even more broken. 2+ armor save MCs should never have been a thing.

This post is ridiculous. Are you really so scared of Tyrannofexes that you need a whole gun type to deal with it? But of course, you meant the Riptide, aaaan...? The Dreadknight? Yeah, this argument goes down the drain, as the Tyrannofex is ludicrously expensive and the Dreadknight has only 4 wounds. You are complaining soley about the Riptide to my knowledge, in which case your argument isn't exactly comprehensive.

And once again WE DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF GRAV. Sorry, it's just really annoying when posts like the above seem to think we want them banned, no, we want them brought into line with every other weapon of a similar cost and purpose. A 3 man biker unit with 2 Grav Guns and a Combie Grav is under 100pts, and can quite easily kill a Carnifex/Talos/Hive Tyrant/Wraithlord in a single volly using the Combi. The same loadout of Plasma's won't, which is arguably the closest weapon design wise.


As a Space Marine, you already have your jack of all trades special weapon, the Plasma, now tell me when you would take a Plasma over a Grav Gun. In any situation, i can't think of one where the Plasma noticeably out preforms the Grav. So, if one choice is always taken, logically either plasma is too weak or Grav is to strong. Plasma has been the same for several editions, you make the call on which.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" What we are complaining about is HOW effective a Grav Gun is against Monsters."

We need grav against monsters, otherwise they will be even more broken. 2+ armor save MCs should never have been a thing.

This post is ridiculous. Are you really so scared of Tyrannofexes that you need a whole gun type to deal with it? But of course, you meant the Riptide, aaaan...? The Dreadknight? Yeah, this argument goes down the drain, as the Tyrannofex is ludicrously expensive and the Dreadknight has only 4 wounds. You are complaining soley about the Riptide to my knowledge, in which case your argument isn't exactly comprehensive.

And once again WE DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF GRAV. Sorry, it's just really annoying when posts like the above seem to think we want them banned, no, we want them brought into line with every other weapon of a similar cost and purpose. A 3 man biker unit with 2 Grav Guns and a Combie Grav is under 100pts, and can quite easily kill a Carnifex/Talos/Hive Tyrant/Wraithlord in a single volly using the Combi. The same loadout of Plasma's won't, which is arguably the closest weapon design wise.


As a Space Marine, you already have your jack of all trades special weapon, the Plasma, now tell me when you would take a Plasma over a Grav Gun. In any situation, i can't think of one where the Plasma noticeably out preforms the Grav. So, if one choice is always taken, logically either plasma is too weak or Grav is to strong. Plasma has been the same for several editions, you make the call on which.

Now that poison doesnt work on WK, grav is pretty much necessary there as well. With the number of Riptides I've fought, my argument does NOT go down the drain. Grav is the weapon needed against units that are too good. Get rid of those units, and you can nerf grav. Otherwise, eat grav and die MCs. It's certainly the only hope BA have against them.

Martel732 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" What we are complaining about is HOW effective a Grav Gun is against Monsters."

We need grav against monsters, otherwise they will be even more broken. 2+ armor save MCs should never have been a thing.

This post is ridiculous. Are you really so scared of Tyrannofexes that you need a whole gun type to deal with it? But of course, you meant the Riptide, aaaan...? The Dreadknight? Yeah, this argument goes down the drain, as the Tyrannofex is ludicrously expensive and the Dreadknight has only 4 wounds. You are complaining soley about the Riptide to my knowledge, in which case your argument isn't exactly comprehensive.

And once again WE DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF GRAV. Sorry, it's just really annoying when posts like the above seem to think we want them banned, no, we want them brought into line with every other weapon of a similar cost and purpose. A 3 man biker unit with 2 Grav Guns and a Combie Grav is under 100pts, and can quite easily kill a Carnifex/Talos/Hive Tyrant/Wraithlord in a single volly using the Combi. The same loadout of Plasma's won't, which is arguably the closest weapon design wise.


As a Space Marine, you already have your jack of all trades special weapon, the Plasma, now tell me when you would take a Plasma over a Grav Gun. In any situation, i can't think of one where the Plasma noticeably out preforms the Grav. So, if one choice is always taken, logically either plasma is too weak or Grav is to strong. Plasma has been the same for several editions, you make the call on which.

Now that poison doesnt work on WK, grav is pretty much necessary there as well. With the number of Riptides I've fought, my argument does NOT go down the drain. Grav is the weapon needed against units that are too good. Get rid of those units, and you can nerf grav. Otherwise, eat grav and die MCs. It's certainly the only hope BA have against them.

Soo...because 1 or 2 units in the game are OP, Space Marines need a weapon that makes them worthless? Riptides have midling firepower without Markerlights, and die to Plasma Fire. Everyone has a problem with Wraithknights, and EVERYONE admits they are OP. Why on god's green earth would you use THAT unit as your benchmark for firepower? Why don't you compare it to Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants, Mawlocks, Talosi, or you know, every other MC that isn't considered OP by at least 90% of the player base?

Measure somethings effective by what is deemed acceptable, otherwise your only furthering the power creep and yourself, playing on a crutch.

"Everyone has a problem with Wraithknights, and EVERYONE admits they are OP"

Universal acknowledgment doesn't stop people from fielding them. I need a way to kill them in the game, not just cry "OP!". Grav is that way.

"Why on god's green earth would you use THAT unit as your benchmark for firepower?"

Because that's what I have to play against. A lot. Also, grav is far from an autokill against Riptides; and trying to kill them with plasma is actually very difficult. Riptides don't let marines within 12" usually. Grav is pretty much the only weapon marines have that has a chance of downing a Riptide consistently.

" Why don't you compare it to Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants, Mawlocks, Talosi, or you know, every other MC that isn't considered OP by at least 90% of the player base? "

I don't see those MCs. I see Riptides and WKs and DKs. Those are the relevant MCs, not the other ones. Oh yes, I see flyrants too, but flyrants don't really care about grav do they?

"Measure somethings effective by what is deemed acceptable"

What other people deem acceptable is irrelevant. What they actually put on the board is.

At which point I'd agrue you haven't read the OP, who is aggravated at how fast Grav is taking down his Tyranid Monsters. So with that as the intent from this thread, can you justify the fact Grav can gut a Tyranid army with the fact you need it to counter a single model from the Eldar codex?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
At which point I'd agrue you haven't read the OP, who is aggravated at how fast Grav is taking down his Tyranid Monsters. So with that as the intent from this thread, can you justify the fact Grav can gut a Tyranid army with the fact you need it to counter a single model from the Eldar codex?

Yeah, I can, because I play against Eldar and not Tyranids. And on the rare occasion when I do, they spam flyrants. No sympathy here. Tyranids are suffering because their MCs are not up to snuff against the real MCs in the game. Just as my BA are suffering because we aren't real marines with the real marine codex and have no access to Skyhammer or shield eternal, etc. Until people are forced to play with suboptimal choices in this game, I'm gaming against the best units, not the middling units. Because guess what people are going to bring? The best.

Oh My, so your saying....you're supporting the power creep? If we judge everything by it's ability to beat the ''best'' then everything will continually get ''better'', and the winner of every game will be the latest codex out. If that's what you want, it's a very different vision to me.

Your view is basically a big F-U to all pre-Necron codexes. Orks, Non-Flyrant Spam Tyranids, Dark Eldar? No, you don't get to have a balanced game because your books are old.

Ridiculous. But also irrelevant. Re-read the OP. If you truly think that his Bio-Titian deserved to die to a single unit of Grav Centurions, at 1/5 of the cost, in a single volly simply because it's not ''the best'' then GW Power Creep may have warped your sense of fun for all to much. Just wait until GW goes Age of Sigmar on 40K asses...

"Oh My, so your saying....you're supporting the power creep?"

Support? No. Accept, yes.

"Your view is basically a big F-U to all pre-Necron codexes"

Ironic, because I play mono-BA. No one is giving me a break because my book sucks. They just try to table me faster.

" No, you don't get to have a balanced game because your books are old. "

GW has already decided this. I'm adapting to the reality.

" If you truly think that his Bio-Titian deserved to die to a single unit of Grav Centurions, at 1/5 of the cost, in a single volly simply because it's not ''the best''"

If this is a likely outcome, I would never use it because grav cents are common. It's called meta game.

I'd say yes to you supporting it, since in every proposed rule thread relevant to IoM in someway you always want to buff things through the roof up to WK, ScatBike or Harvest Wraith levels.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'd say yes to you supporting it, since in every proposed rule thread relevant to IoM in someway you always want to buff things through the roof up to WK, ScatBike or Harvest Wraith levels.

No, just accepting it. If I could make those units go away, I would. But I can't and you can't. Also, people usually won't agree to nerf themselves. They are more likely to agree to a buff for another list. I know zero Eldar players will to accept scat bike nerfs after they built 40 of the things. Can you blame them? I guess sorta, but it's all GW's world.

And I know Eldar players who are fully accepting of a ScatBike nerf. As an almost-Necron player (I own them but haven't played them since 5th) I would be fully accepting of a Wraith and Decurion nerf. As a Daemon player I'm accepting of a Summon nerf. As an Ork player... well there isn't really anything to nerf, so if they were I wouldn't be accepting... but that's another story.

I'd argue most people would want a fair game, but at the same time not willing to put more work than necessary into making it so. Since OP units are the minority of units in 40K, it makes more sense to nerf them than to buff everything else to crazy levels, and it would take less time.

Plus what makes you think a person willing to let you have a buff if they're the type of person who want to have an advantage and won't take a nerf?

"Plus what makes you think a person willing to let you have a buff if they're the type of person who want to have an advantage and won't take a nerf? "

Personal experience of 20+ years of gaming. It's a psychology thing. People seem to HATE taking nerfs on their stuff, but don't mind their opponents being brought up to "their level". They get to keep their sense of superiority, which is important to many gamers. The idea that they can't be beat with the "real rules".

"I'd argue most people would want a fair game"

I'd say many, but just as many gamers want to stomp a mud hole in you as hard as they can. Call it compensation for other parts of their lives, I suppose. So not most. At least not in this game.

"And I know Eldar players who are fully accepting of a ScatBike nerf."

As you might imagine, I know zero. And I know a couple that think they should be even better, because reasons.

" As an Ork player... well there isn't really anything to nerf, so if they were I wouldn't be accepting"

As a BA player, I can't take any nerfs to grav for the same reasons. Sorry other marine chapters have the same weapon. Remember, I have to fight them too.

"Since OP units are the minority of units in 40K, it makes more sense to nerf them than to buff everything else to crazy levels, and it would take less time. "

But there's actually multiple tiers of units. There are units that would be OP if the current OP stuff was nerfed. So then that would have to be nerfed. It would generate less butthurt to make everyone awesome instead of making everyone crappy.

Wait, you really think half the playerbase of 40K are TFGs?
Wow that's a massively pessimistic view.

So... because someone doesn't want their WK to be nerfed we should buff every unit in C:Orks or C:BA, for example, and the rest of the Eldar codex (sans ScatBikes and the other few problem units)?

Also, in my experience people only really hate nerfs when they are applied to units that don't need them or that are too nerfed, which is really the only types of nerfing GW has done.

and we've already established just how different (to put it lightly) your gaming community is from everyone elses', so it's no surprise to me that you know people who want to buff OP units further.

"Wait, you really think half the playerbase of 40K are TFGs? "

20+ years of playing tells me that yeah, pretty much. Whiney, foot stompy, want to blow me off the table and take no damage in return. That's a big section of the 40K player base. It's the same people that call you homosexual on Starcraft for executing your build better.

Also,there's the debate on whether competitive players are TFGs or not. From a BA perspective, it makes no difference why my opponent has units I can't beat. All that matters is that he has them and is killing me with them. If I called all the Eldar players TFG that fielded units I can't handle, they'd ALL be TFG, even the nice ones.

Also, starting with BA in 2nd ed set on the path to pessimism pretty quickly. I had a game against CSM where I didn't get a turn because he tabled me in one turn of shooting.

"So... because someone doesn't want their WK to be nerfed we should buff every unit in C:Orks or C:BA, for example, and the rest of the Eldar codex (sans ScatBikes and the other few problem units)? "

Yup. Everyone would be much happier, I think. If GW had central rules authority, it wouldn't be too hard. But they don't, so it's impossible and the TFGs and the pay-to-win guys get their way.

If my son didn't like marines, I would probably quit tomorrow.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
grav in itself isn't a bad mechanic, the biggest issue is the number of shots that can be fired. 5 from a grav cannon (which also rerolls wounds) is a little crazy. Or bikers with 3 shots each, etc. It's not the grav as such, it's the ROF that is too much IMHO.

I don't think so. Grav needs a high ROF to be a middling weapon, or else it will be terrible. A lascannon can reliably hurt vehicles and guardsmen with one shot - while it only has one, it can be counted upon to murderize a guardsman.

If a grav weapon only had one shot, or even 3 shots, it would be less good at killing a single Guardsman in the open than a Lascannon.

3 shots of grav vs a Guardsman in the open (from a Marine): 2 hits, .31 Guardsmen dead.

One shot of a lascannon vs a guardsman in the open: .66 hits, .60 guardsmen dead.

A low-ROF gravcannon is literally less reliable against a horde of guardsmen than a LASCANNON. Let that sink in for a moment.

I think your math is off a bit.

Lascannon - .667 hits, .556 Wounds (2/3 hit, 5/6 Wound)
3 shot Grav - 2 hits, .667 Wounds (2/3 hit, 1/3 Wound)

A gravgun doesnt have a 2/3 wound chance against a guardsguardsman. Your mamath is wrong. 2/3 hit, 1/3 of those wound 2/9 wounds

Moot, because almost every unit with a grav gun also has a twin link bolter. Let's be real here. Grav cents don't, but they have grav amps.

The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

I don't like having to have them. But GW has made them a necessity because Riptides aren't 0-1. The math on killing a competent Tau player's Riptide (singular) without grav is soul crushing for marines.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

I don't like having to have them. But GW has made them a necessity because Riptides aren't 0-1. The math on killing a competent Tau player's Riptide (singular) without grav is soul crushing for marines.

I remember killing the special character one in one round last edition, using a lascannon dev squad and an Icarus lascannon. The happy dance was in full effect that day.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

I don't like having to have them. But GW has made them a necessity because Riptides aren't 0-1. The math on killing a competent Tau player's Riptide (singular) without grav is soul crushing for marines.

I remember killing the special character one in one round last edition, using a lascannon dev squad and an Icarus lascannon. The happy dance was in full effect that day.

Wow. Because lascannons suck out loud against them. Riptide scoffs at your ROF 1.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The thread summary: everyone who has grav guns likes them, everyone without or can't really ally them in don't.

The same can be said of d-scythes, scatter lasers, gauss weapons, old tesla weapons, those guns on the CM robots (torsion cannons?), baleflamer. Ion accelerators, and I'm sure we all can think of more.

Grav weapons are the guns that prop you C:SM, and there are other guns that do the same for other armies. And now that three marine books have gotten grav without a single change to them, and CM got a better version, they are here to stay.

I don't like having to have them. But GW has made them a necessity because Riptides aren't 0-1. The math on killing a competent Tau player's Riptide (singular) without grav is soul crushing for marines.

I remember killing the special character one in one round last edition, using a lascannon dev squad and an Icarus lascannon. The happy dance was in full effect that day.

Wow. Because lascannons suck out loud against them. Riptide scoffs at your ROF 1.

The God emperor did smile upon me that day, I was more hoping to scare him into backing up a bit by peeling a wound or two. Normally, especially now that I can afford (money wise) them, gravs are the way to go.

This was back when the 6th codex just dropped and I didn't learn the magic of centurions yet.

The sad part is that grav cents are perfectly fair until you add Draigo/invis shenanigans. Lascannons would actually have a job if naked grav cents were a thing. But... GW happened.

I hate grav canons. It has stopped me playing.

I just collect and paint now. They are 5 shots? AP2? Wounds re rollable? Hit re rollable? Give me a break.

All you guys who think they are remotely fair are bullsh!t artists

ConanMan wrote:
I hate grav canons. It has stopped me playing.

I just collect and paint now. They are 5 shots? AP2? Wounds re rollable? Hit re rollable? Give me a break.

All you guys who think they are remotely fair are bullsh!t artists

Given a straight comparison of platforms, they are more fair than scatterbikes. However, with support they get out of hand. Of course, so do scatbikes. It just takes them longer to sandpaper tough units down.

I just find it funny that ITC puts a major nerf on D weaponry for Eldar, but grav is fine

yeah, never playing in an ITC event. Heck, if grav cannons are fine at ROF 5, wraithcannons should be bumped to ROF 3, lol!

I know one thing, my Ravenwing bikers will not be spamming grav.

I still think the support mechanisms for grav cents are the real offenders. You need the grav cannons to burn down MCs. Eldar have scatter lasers and pseudo rending for that purpose.

Martel732 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
At which point I'd agrue you haven't read the OP, who is aggravated at how fast Grav is taking down his Tyranid Monsters. So with that as the intent from this thread, can you justify the fact Grav can gut a Tyranid army with the fact you need it to counter a single model from the Eldar codex?

Yeah, I can, because I play against Eldar and not Tyranids. And on the rare occasion when I do, they spam flyrants. No sympathy here. Tyranids are suffering because their MCs are not up to snuff against the real MCs in the game. Just as my BA are suffering because we aren't real marines with the real marine codex and have no access to Skyhammer or shield eternal, etc. Until people are forced to play with suboptimal choices in this game, I'm gaming against the best units, not the middling units. Because guess what people are going to bring? The best.

First off the debate is not about YOU and YOUR local meta it is about the game as a whole and not just tournament play WAAC either. The point is that Grav is too effective for its cost. Either reduce its effectiveness or increase its cost. There is no reason whatsoever that a unit designed to take out multiple higher priced units in succession should exist. If you want people to stop bringing wraithknights which are the only real problem as the DK and Riptide aren't as impossibly difficult to kill as you say they are, then simply making grav the same price as such a unit can neutralize those and go on to earn further points elsewhere. As it stands now they are pretty much a 100% without a doubt, guaranteed points return and then some which is just wrong. My only other offer to someone who acts unreasonable like yourself is that all my Tyranid MC's should become just as much of a pain in the ass as the units you want your grav guns for with no points increase. Anyone can be unreasonable my friend. It takes a bit more to step back and view it from all perspectives not just your own "I want to win" perspective.

Also on a side note, the things that you are referring to as "real MCs" Are all a bunch of fething vehicles. Not any sort of creature and certainly not a monstrous one at that. That little meat sack controlling it is the closest thing to creature represented.

On a MUCH MORE important side note you will notice that my original proposition was meant to have literally no bearing on MCs and was meant to affect GCs solely but just continue to bend this out of context be my guest. At its worst my original toughness chart suggestion would make most of your to wound rolls an honest 4+ against your average MC but you'd still have your AP2 and could still put down basically any MC with relative ease. Even at Toughness 8 you'd still AP the Wraithknight on that chart.

This page wasn't meant to be so you could cry about how everything needs to be OP, it is about proposing a homemade solution to GW's game design (or lack thereof) that makes the game more reasonable and fun. The issue I see coming up is that a lot of people who happen to be Necron, Eldar and SM Grav players seem to think that fun means winning all the time. The fun of a game like this is meant to come from the mental sparring match between two generals. NOT from the easy win every game where one player works their ass off in an attempt to outdo their opponent's cheese while the opponent just points to his unit and points his finger and kills everything. If a persons regular life is that frustrating that they need to pummel someone for their own happiness then they should go join a gym and get stronger not be some frustrated manchild who lives in a pile of overpriced plastic models.

Given all possible targets in the game, grav is fine. Yes, it's too good against some targets, but other targets practically require it. Not my fault.

"The issue I see coming up is that a lot of people who happen to be Necron, Eldar and SM Grav players seem to think that fun means winning all the time. "

I'd settle for not losing all the time. All the time being more than 60% for full disclosure.

"Also on a side note, the things that you are referring to as "real MCs" Are all a bunch of fething vehicles. "

Not according to our GW overlords.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
At which point I'd agrue you haven't read the OP, who is aggravated at how fast Grav is taking down his Tyranid Monsters. So with that as the intent from this thread, can you justify the fact Grav can gut a Tyranid army with the fact you need it to counter a single model from the Eldar codex?

Yeah, I can, because I play against Eldar and not Tyranids. And on the rare occasion when I do, they spam flyrants. No sympathy here. Tyranids are suffering because their MCs are not up to snuff against the real MCs in the game. Just as my BA are suffering because we aren't real marines with the real marine codex and have no access to Skyhammer or shield eternal, etc. Until people are forced to play with suboptimal choices in this game, I'm gaming against the best units, not the middling units. Because guess what people are going to bring? The best.

First off the debate is not about YOU and YOUR local meta it is about the game as a whole and not just tournament play WAAC either.

Who's said anything about WAAC? Tournament play and WAAC isn't the same thing, pretending it is is rather rude to those of us that like playing as strong lists as possible without cheating.