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If a bastion is considered a unit, could I infiltrate or scout fortifications if a Trait allows me to give a unit the special rule?

Yes

Groovy

No, they are not. The building rules fall under Battlefield Terrain. There is no "Unit Type" of building, for example. I think of the confusion comes where they "use aspects of the Transport vehicle rules."

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/653679.page

We don't need to go through this discussion again.

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
If a bastion is considered a unit, could I infiltrate or scout fortifications if a Trait allows me to give a unit the special rule?

Fortifications selected as a part of your army are units. Fortifications NOT selected as a part of either players' armies and placed on the battlefield as pieces of terrain BECOME units when they are first claimed.

Not having a unit type doesn't prevent something from being a unit. It is simply a unit with no type. From a game perspective, this isn't normally an issue as the rules almost never care about what typ of unit a fortification is.

If they're units, then why do they have a Terrain Type? Why aren't they listed under Unit Types? Why are their rules under Battlefield Terrain section of the rulebook? Why does page 130 have to specify that you deploy your Fortification with the units in your army? If it's a unit, then why do they have to specific how to shoot at one? I could go on.

A vague two sentence paragraph on page 9, that doesn't mention fortifications at all, doesn't provide empirical proof that it is a unit.

 Chardun wrote:
If they're units, then why do they have a Terrain Type? Why aren't they listed under Unit Types? Why are their rules under Battlefield Terrain section of the rulebook? Why does page 130 have to specify that you deploy your Fortification with the units in your army? If it's a unit, then why do they have to specific how to shoot at one? I could go on.

A vague two sentence paragraph on page 9, that doesn't mention fortifications at all, doesn't provide empirical proof that it is a unit.

Have my babies. More importantly, I will be using this as my argument in future negotiations.

Building are units
"1.• A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army
2.• At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player.`" p.112

this is asked like twice a month

they cant scout though because they don't have a "unit type"

but they are units

 Chardun wrote:
If they're units, then why do they have a Terrain Type? Why aren't they listed under Unit Types? Why are their rules under Battlefield Terrain section of the rulebook? Why does page 130 have to specify that you deploy your Fortification with the units in your army? If it's a unit, then why do they have to specific how to shoot at one? I could go on.

A vague two sentence paragraph on page 9, that doesn't mention fortifications at all, doesn't provide empirical proof that it is a unit.

Wait, so a rule telling you that all of the models in your army have to be organized into units isn't specific enough to inform you that all of your models have to be organized into units?

Is a Bastion a model? Is the Bastion part of your army? If yes to both, per the rules, it must be organized into a unit. Period.

You are right. What was I thinking. A vague rule obviously trumps all these other rules and references that are meant to impart "unit" rules onto a Fortification that has it's rules under the Battlefield Terrain section of the rules. Period.

When does the game start? When you roll for mission and deployment types? When you build your list? When you actually deploy? At the beginning of Turn 1?

 Kriswall wrote:

 Chardun wrote:
If they're units, then why do they have a Terrain Type? Why aren't they listed under Unit Types? Why are their rules under Battlefield Terrain section of the rulebook? Why does page 130 have to specify that you deploy your Fortification with the units in your army? If it's a unit, then why do they have to specific how to shoot at one? I could go on.

A vague two sentence paragraph on page 9, that doesn't mention fortifications at all, doesn't provide empirical proof that it is a unit.

Wait, so a rule telling you that all of the models in your army have to be organized into units isn't specific enough to inform you that all of your models have to be organized into units?

Is a Bastion a model? Is the Bastion part of your army? If yes to both, per the rules, it must be organized into a unit. Period.

Yes the Bastion is part of your army.

No, a Bastion is not a Model.

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section." (Models and units chapter, Other Important Information section)

So as I have proven a Bastion is not a model because it does not have a unit type, and we know ""In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type..."

Therefore a Bastion is not a model. It is terrain, that sometimes happens to be a unit without a unit type, but it is never a model.

So it is not a yes to both questions.

I'm not having this discussion again. Check one of the dozen other threads on the topic that eventually get locked when no consensus is reached.

For all you Americans out there, enjoy your Independence day weekend. For you Brits, maybe try harder to hold onto your colonies in the future.

I would like to point something out.

Per the rules for Dedicated Transports, when a DT deploys it can only carry the unit that bought it. After the game begins, it can transport any friendly unit.

Why is this important? It tells us that the game does not begin with deployment, but later.

As such, during deployment, fortifications are not units in your army (the game has not yet begun).

So the question is, does the game begin before Scout redeployments, or when the first player begins his turn?

The only rule that matters for determining if a claimed building is a unit is this one.

A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army and will remain so, even if it later becomes unoccupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by an enemy

Unless some one can find a rule the literally states a claimed building is not a unit we need to move on.

@Happyjew. Unfortunately that does not prove anything about the timing of events as both statements are still true is a DT transport deploys at the same moment the game begins. Also, in 40k its already possible for a DT to deploy after the game begins. As such there is nothing to say all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army cannot be units when the are deployed.

 DJGietzen wrote:
The only rule that matters for determining if a claimed building is a unit is this one.

A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army and will remain so, even if it later becomes unoccupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by an enemy

Unless some one can find a rule the literally states a claimed building is not a unit we need to move on.

and it literally does not matter if they are units or not. (I know the rules state that fortifications are sometimes units).

If they do not have a unit type, they can not redeploy.

Some unit types can redeploy 12". Such as bikes and a few others.

If you do not have a unit type, you do not fall into that category, so you can not redeploy up to 12 inches (nor do you fall into the category of "Unit Type={Infantry, Artillery, Walker, Monstrous Creature so you can not redeploy up to 6 inches}".

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
The only rule that matters for determining if a claimed building is a unit is this one.

A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army and will remain so, even if it later becomes unoccupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by an enemy

Unless some one can find a rule the literally states a claimed building is not a unit we need to move on.

and it literally does not matter if they are units or not. (I know the rules state that fortifications are sometimes units).

If they do not have a unit type, they can not redeploy.

Some unit types can redeploy 12". Such as bikes and a few others.

If you do not have a unit type, you do not fall into that category, so you can not redeploy up to 12 inches (nor do you fall into the category of "Unit Type={Infantry, Artillery, Walker, Monstrous Creature so you can not redeploy up to 6 inches}".

I don't disagree with you at all.

Unit or not, how are people taking them as a Dedicated Transport to confer these rules on them? Maybe I'm not seeing it, but the only way a unit can confer Scout and/or Infiltrate on a transport (and by way of your argument, a Fortification) is if it is a Dedicated Transport.

When you set up the game, you set up terrain second after determining the mission. Unless it was a fortification purchased with your army, then you can set it up with the rest of your units. Says so right on page 130. Even calls them scenery. Are the trees now neutral units? Is the pond? It's a model, so page 9 says so...

This matters, because the Eldar: Craftworld warlord trait, "An Eye of Distant Events" confers Scout to d3 units in my army.
I figure I can move the Bastion or whatever armored fortification I bring 12 inch redeployment because it is not an Infantry, Artillery, Walker, Monstrous Creature.

Building are units
"A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army.
At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of
a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player.`" p.112

look in the rule book page 112 at the top it's crazy how people can argue

This is asked like twice a month it's getting really old

Buildings are units. If you argue otherwise, I'll just say you can't shoot or assault them as the rules for these actions say you have to nominate a unit to shoot at. Just park my warlord in a bastion and he becomes invincible.

buildings are units. buildings can't scout because they dont have a unit type