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Ok so I was wondering if I could gain some input on a couple of ideas I had for fixing terminators.

Fix 1: Terminators gain the ability to reroll all failed saves the (game) turn they deepstrike or assault an enemy unit.

Fix 2: Terminators become T5 and gain a 5+FNP.

Fix 3: Terminators gain Hammer of Wrath and the ability to ignore the unwieldy rule.

Fix 4 ???

Add in what you think would work, and critique what I've got up here.

Reroll armor saves?

I rather like the idea of giving them T5, and FNP would be interesting. Now, Iron Hands termies with 2+/5++/4+FNP at T5 would be, um, interesting to kill. Ever fought Wraiths in a Canoptek Harvest formation so they have Reanimation Protocols? Yeah, almost like that.

On the other hand, terminators that aren't scared of meltaguns sound like an interesting proposition - make their save hard enough to get through that the best option is to line up a pile of Guardsmen, cast Prescience, then FRFSRF? Now that might make volume of fire interesting again.

They already went down 5 points. If you want them to be gods, just say so.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Ok so I was wondering if I could gain some input on a couple of ideas I had for fixing terminators.

Fix 1: Terminators gain the ability to reroll all failed saves the (game) turn they deepstrike or assault an enemy unit.

Fix 2: Terminators become T5 and gain a 5+FNP.

Fix 3: Terminators gain Hammer of Wrath and the ability to ignore the unwieldy rule.

Fix 4 ???

Add in what you think would work, and critique what I've got up here.

All no.

Reserves is about the risk management. if you are removing a big chunk of the risk what the point.
no T5 i dont need a new form of Bike chaptermasters immune to sub 9 ID
HoW maybe. ignore unwieldy? no. there would be no point in any other power weapon options they ever get
fix 4??? Nerf everythign else instead of buffing the weak.

Eh HOW I can see, maybeeee with a huge grain of salt T5.
What I really think termies could use is to be dropped by 10 or 15 points and gives power swords standard with options for fists and hammers. That way they can be cheaper with more options ( and sword termies look cool to boot)

 Gavik Dross wrote:
Eh HOW I can see, maybeeee with a huge grain of salt T5.
What I really think termies could use is to be dropped by 10 or 15 points and gives power swords standard with options for fists and hammers.

You think Terminators should be 20 points with Power Swords? Seriously? No, really?

Or 25, basically honor guard with crappy invul and DS, we might certainly see them on the table then at least.
Sure it's not perfect points cost but around that area would work.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:Ok so I was wondering if I could gain some input on a couple of ideas I had for fixing terminators.

Fix 1: Terminators gain the ability to reroll all failed saves the (game) turn they deepstrike or assault an enemy unit.

Fix 2: Terminators become T5 and gain a 5+FNP.

Fix 3: Terminators gain Hammer of Wrath and the ability to ignore the unwieldy rule.

Fix 4 ???

Add in what you think would work, and critique what I've got up here.

1: it's pretty fiddly and gimmicky.

2: With this it is very difficult to defeat FNP. I think that this is not what a game is. Normally against FNP you would have to decide if it is worth moving strength eight weapons into position and risking them, and you have to have the skill to move them there. With toughness five and FNP that just isn't a game anymore. Also, you have to decide whether you want multi-wound characters become immune to most ID. I don't care for that.

3: Usage of assault terminators doesn't really go up or down, usage of regular terminators doesn't go up or down because assault terminators are still better, chaos terminators don't go up or down, wolf guard, death wing knights, etcetera. They are still hard to move and don't shoot well. Ignores unwieldy across the board is too much and too little. Maybe if it were just on powerfists, or it only made them initiative 2. I really think it should be powerfists only, and that TDA powerfists should then go up in points by ten points.

I got a little mad at the dumb posts chipping in their (old) ideas until I noticed your last line.

What I have to add is that most of the problem is bad shooting from any of the TDA armies. All the shooting they do, no matter what gun they have, has to get better. Not more heavy weapons, not different weapons, any weapon you have on a terminator should shoot better than it does on a different unit.

The other thing is that you should add FNP to many more units than just TDA, because that way TDA will get tougher but people will still be prepared to shoot it, and there is also s8 that doesn't have ap2 (battle cannons, krak missiles, and rokkits) so many people will spam those instead of plasma and they'll beat FNP but still get an armor save on 2+.

I think at the end of the shooting phase, all TDA units get to fire snap shots. TDA snap shots have bs user - 1 instead of bs1, including overwatch and anti-air. They all get FNP. TDA uses power fists at initiative 2 instead of 1, and normal terminator squads go up to 50 ppm; assault terminators still start at 35.

The extra snap shots and FNP goes for all marines too. Power armor gets pierced by autocannons, heavy bolters, plasma missiles, and missile pods to compensate. Sisters same except for FNP. That way people stop spamming so much AP2 for marine killing.

jade_angel wrote:On the other hand, terminators that aren't scared of meltaguns sound like an interesting proposition - make their save hard enough to get through that the best option is to line up a pile of Guardsmen, cast Prescience, then FRFSRF? Now that might make volume of fire interesting again.

Many people think that they are already weak against massed attacks.

I think that its best just to focus them into cc oriented models instead of making them better in an area where they currently suck.

You know build on their strengths no their weaknesses. How about this:
Terminators may reroll their armor save and built in 5+ invulnerable save and they gain a 5+ FNP. Note that storm shields do not benefit from this.
Plasma, melta, thunderhammers etc. still have a good chance of killing them, but they become much more resistant to massed fire.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

This fix makes them very tough and stand up better to their price cost. Also would like to add in that the 5+ FNP will replace any FNP the model already has. I.E. It won’t be stackable.
This still gives an advantage to taking stormshields… just not a huge one as it changes from a 54.7% chance to make a save compared to 66.6%

 DarknessEternal wrote:
They already went down 5 points. If you want them to be gods, just say so.

They're still awful. You're paying for a 35 pt stormbolter.

"Many people think that they are already weak against massed attacks. "

Because they are.

No matter what you do, though, they will probably be crap because their shooting attack sucks out loud and assault is irrelevant in Dakkahammer 7th ed.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
They already went down 5 points. If you want them to be gods, just say so.

Is that directed at me? No I don't want them to be gods... I just want themto be a tough cc oriented infantry units that's worth its points.

No matter what you do, though, they will probably be crap because their shooting attack sucks out loud and assault is irrelevant in Dakkahammer 7th ed.

I'm not sure I agree.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:I think that its best just to focus them into cc oriented models instead of making them better in an area where they currently suck.

You know build on their strengths no their weaknesses. How about this:
Terminators may reroll their armor save and built in 5+ invulnerable save and they gain a 5+ FNP. Note that storm shields do not benefit from this.
Plasma, melta, thunderhammers etc. still have a good chance of killing them, but they become much more resistant to massed fire.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

This fix makes them very tough and stand up better to their price cost. Also would like to add in that the 5+ FNP will replace any FNP the model already has. I.E. It won’t be stackable.
This still gives an advantage to taking stormshields… just not a huge one as it changes from a 54.7% chance to make a save compared to 66.6%

I think you should take another look at shooting. They have the basics to be pretty good: they are relentless and can get perfect DS if it ever became worth it to buy teleport homers.

Terminators as it is are capable of doing things once they reach cc. I think I'll let Martel cover the usefulness of "better" cc. What are they going to do, spend 250 points on a dumb oversized rhino and flatten a single squad that I feed them? I think I'll be fine.


The ways to be a super powered unit are to be really good at shooting, or really good at being fast and killing things in cc. Terminators are never going to be really good at being fast. I have to think of it as the only thing assault terminators will be good for is being a counter unit for tarpitting normal shooting terminators.


I think the re-rolls isn't really a rule that you should put on any unit, no matter what description.

Jump pack infantry is a really nice rule. If you have it, you can do way different things than you could with just normal infantry.

Precision shots is a really nice rule. Getting precision shots allows you to do something you can't do otherwise.

Fleshbane / special issue ammo is really nice. You can wound wraith lords, and easily. It's a nice rule.

Rerolling saves doesn't let you do anything you wouldn't do otherwise. I can already roll armor saves, you don't need to give me a special rule to roll an armor save.

Fortune is totally different. The eldar player has to use a farseer, get the farseer in position, cast the spell, the opponent can deny the spell, the opponent can kill the farseer. It's a whole thing that you can interact with. It is almost the opposite thing as writing a special rule to reroll armor saves.


As for feel no pain, there is only one reason to give a model any rule, and terminators don't have it for FNP. If you looked at the model and it didn't have rules, you'd say since it has really heavy armor, it should have a really good armor save, not a 5+, but a 2+ save. You'd say since it is really heavy and motorized, that it should be a stable firing platform and have relentless. You'd say since it has a big motorized claw, that it should have a really strong grip, like strength 8. There is nothing about terminator armor that looks like he has an extra suprarenal gland secreting extra adrenaline and epinephrine to stop shock. It just doesn't have any reason to take that rule.

If you want to make FNP a faction-wide trait, that is a different story and I'm happy for it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
They already went down 5 points. If you want them to be gods, just say so.

I really wish the were gods. You want to see the interesting thing about gods? Scatterbikes are "gods," but think about them being t4 3+ units that are terrible in cc. Gods can be all kinds of things. I think a unit that I described in my last post is a god unit, but it still moves 6" a turn, has one heavy weapon, and can't get a transport for less than 200 points.

Martel732 wrote:

"Many people think that they are already weak against massed attacks. "

Because they are.

No matter what you do, though, they will probably be crap because their shooting attack sucks out loud and assault is irrelevant in Dakkahammer 7th ed.

word.

You don't agree, Doom? People think assault terminators are dumb. They are literally a pile of points that can overspend to kill two units a game with their hammers. It's not like they can be fixed by getting bigger hammers.

Give them all assault cannons. Dump the storm bolters. Make them 45 pts. They are fair compared to scat bikes. Done. They need bigger guns, not more gimmicks.

No more FNP. Just stop it. Everyone is getting FNP and it's gone from something cool to who gives a feth.

Let's go back to Rogue Trader/2nd edition for these guys since all the other factions are benefitting from it. Eldar come to mind.

Terminators

Terminator...WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD9 SV2+
Sergeant......WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I4 A3 LD10 SV2+ (This follows from Rogue Trader, and in the same way as Eldar Exarchs which also had 2W in Rogue Trader and do so today)

Terminator Armor: Terminator armor grants a model a 2+ armor save. It also grants a 5+ invulnerable save. It also incorporates a Sealed suit, which makes this model immune to any weapon with "rad" in its name or incorporating a special rule that includes "rad" in its name. Finally, shooting attacks from a model in Terminator armor force a -1 Cover save to any unit it targets.


Terminators have this:

Terminator Storm Bolter
Range 24" / Str4 AP5 / Assault 2 / Following Fire

Following Fire: Count all successful to-wound rolls this model makes, regardless of whether they are saved. This model may then make an additional shooting attack against the unit it just shot at, or a unit within 4". If there are multiple models with a weapon with this special rule in this unit, all models must choose the same unit to make their additional shooting attack.


For every 5 models, a model may replace its Terminator Storm Bolter with one of the following:

Heavy Flamer.......5 points
Assault Cannon....15 points


All other options stay the same. Cost stays at 35 ppm.

Edit: Couldn't speak my mind without breaking rule #1, ignore this.

Martel732 wrote:
Give them all assault cannons. Dump the storm bolters. Make them 45 pts. They are fair compared to scat bikes. Done. They need bigger guns, not more gimmicks.

Either that or change stormbolters profile to be S5 ap3 Assault 4.

Its like Heavy Bolters but better-er!

Just fix their cost and access to heavy Weapons. Easiest way to do it. They suffered most from being unfocused and spending multiple editions watching everything around them get cheaper.

30pts for TA with PW and SB
35pts for TA with PF and SB or Dual Lighting Claws
40pts for TA with LH/SH

2 Heavy Weapons for five models, reduce Heavy weapons costs by 5pts and give flakk missiles to the CML.

Fought a guy today who tried with partial success to convince me that Assault Terminators in the 7e space marine codex could assault from deepstrike and could roll their 3+ invuln save on top of their 2+ armour save. I laughed in his face and he got mad when I asked to see the rulebook.

Ass Terminators are supposed to be the shockiest, troopiest shocktroopers. Give them turn 1 deepstrike or less scatter or something nice for winning assaults

Vanilla terminators are supposed to be actually good at something. They aren't.

Over all other issues, Terminators need bigger stats and to cost more points. It feels better on table to have 3 terminators with bigger stats that don't die to smallarms fire as easily than it does to have 5 for the same cost and smaller stats. Even BS5 WS5 S5 T5 is a huge improvement, and you will feel it in playtesting.

Keep everything as is and add another wound. Personally, through I don't have any problems with terminators as is and I am happy they went down in points.

I don't know why they don't just give Terminators a 4+ invulnerable save. In 2nd they pretty much had a 2+/3++ save and were absolute beasts (they were also far more expensive points-wise, you'd be lucky to fit five into most games).

 Zagman wrote:
Just fix their cost and access to heavy Weapons. Easiest way to do it. They suffered most from being unfocused and spending multiple editions watching everything around them get cheaper.

30pts for TA with PW and SB
35pts for TA with PF and SB or Dual Lighting Claws
40pts for TA with LH/SH

2 Heavy Weapons for five models, reduce Heavy weapons costs by 5pts and give flakk missiles to the CML.

Still crap. I'm not paying 30 pts for a storm bolter. Ever. Two heavy weapons per squad does not meet the new standard of dakka in 7th ed. Especially with all the AP 2 running around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quintinus wrote:
No more FNP. Just stop it. Everyone is getting FNP and it's gone from something cool to who gives a feth.

Let's go back to Rogue Trader/2nd edition for these guys since all the other factions are benefitting from it. Eldar come to mind.

Terminators

Terminator...WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD9 SV2+
Sergeant......WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I4 A3 LD10 SV2+ (This follows from Rogue Trader, and in the same way as Eldar Exarchs which also had 2W in Rogue Trader and do so today)

Terminator Armor: Terminator armor grants a model a 2+ armor save. It also grants a 5+ invulnerable save. It also incorporates a Sealed suit, which makes this model immune to any weapon with "rad" in its name or incorporating a special rule that includes "rad" in its name. Finally, shooting attacks from a model in Terminator armor force a -1 Cover save to any unit it targets.


Terminators have this:

Terminator Storm Bolter
Range 24" / Str4 AP5 / Assault 2 / Following Fire

Following Fire: Count all successful to-wound rolls this model makes, regardless of whether they are saved. This model may then make an additional shooting attack against the unit it just shot at, or a unit within 4". If there are multiple models with a weapon with this special rule in this unit, all models must choose the same unit to make their additional shooting attack.


For every 5 models, a model may replace its Terminator Storm Bolter with one of the following:

Heavy Flamer.......5 points
Assault Cannon....15 points


All other options stay the same. Cost stays at 35 ppm.

Still S4 crap shooting. Useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marik Law wrote:
I don't know why they don't just give Terminators a 4+ invulnerable save. In 2nd they pretty much had a 2+/3++ save and were absolute beasts (they were also far more expensive points-wise, you'd be lucky to fit five into most games).

Because they would still suck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Come on people. The new reality is scatbikes, decurions, D-scythes and skyhammer grav dev squads. The only hope terminators have is to be able to kill back at range. All assault cannons, all the time. Feth storm bolters; they have always sucked.

Martel732 wrote:


Still S4 crap shooting. Useless.

So 2 BS5 Assault cannons for a total squad cost of 215 points is bad now?

If anything, I'd only add an addendum to Terminators with the following:

Terminator armor grants a model a 2+ armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save.It has a Sealed suit, which makes this model immune to any weapon with "rad" in its name or incorporating a special rule that includes "rad" in its name. A unit comprised entirely of Terminators only scatters D3" when it Deep Strikes. Any shooting attack from Terminators incurs a -1 Cover Save modifier.

Essentially this makes them a very accurate Beta Strike unit. On drop they scatter D3", then have 2 BS5 Assault cannons and 3 BS5 Storm Bolters with Following Fire. You'll also notice that nowhere in the Terminator armor description are they disallowed from Sweeping Advance.

Come on people. The new reality is scatbikes, decurions, D-scythes and skyhammer grav dev squads. The only hope terminators have is to be able to kill back at range. All assault cannons, all the time. Feth storm bolters; they have always sucked.

With my above suggestion, most of your fears are removed. Terminators in my mind have always deep struck. They are "tactical" dreadnoughts first and foremost!

With all of the above (excepting D-scythes that use Webway portal), Terminators come in after these units and get the first hit against them. That's what helps make Terminators keep staying power.

Let's say they fight 215 points (2 Assault Cannons, 3 Storm Bolters) in all of the above units - who's going to win?

Versus T4: 6.66 wounds dealt
5.555 (let's say 1 Rending and 4 normal wounds)

Then 3 Stormbolters: 2.5 stormbolter wounds first hit, with following fire granting an additional wound for a total of 3.5 wounds dealt by these "pathetic" STr4 weapons.

Total of 7.5 saveable, 1 unsaveable. Against Scatterbikes or Grav Cannon devastators, that's 3 down in the opening salvo. Decurion Necrons are extremely resilient to shooting so you'll want to engage them in close combat. With 11 WS5 S8 powerfist attacks, not only are you ignoring armor but you're reducing their Reanimation roll by 1.

Oh and let's not forget: this is -all- without any sort of Chapter tactics taking effect.

Let's not forget that the Sergeant has 2 wounds, making the squad more resilient with an effectual 6 wounds. At 175 points base, that's pretty good. Terminators are not overpowered but definitely give some of the best units in the game a decent run for their money.

"So 2 BS5 Assault cannons for a total squad cost of 215 points is bad now? "

Yes, because the 24" range puts you in counter-fire range of all kinds of horribleness in this game. The scatterlaser laughs at you from 36" out. And your other three terminator dudes are useless as ever.

"You'll also notice that nowhere in the Terminator armor description are they disallowed from Sweeping Advance. "

So they can sweep in that assault that never happens. Got it.

"With my above suggestion, most of your fears are removed"

No, not really.

"Terminators in my mind have always deep struck"

Why? Deep striking sucks. Of course, foot slogging also sucks, as does riding in a Land Raider. The mobility problem is part of the suck equation for terminators.

"Terminators come in after these units and get the first hit against them"

Not necessarily. That's a horrible assumption as an actual game unfolds.

"dealt by these "pathetic" STr4 weapons. "

And I still say S4 weapons are pitiful. There's too many units that just don't give a feth.

Martel732 wrote:
"So 2 BS5 Assault cannons for a total squad cost of 215 points is bad now? "

Yes, because the 24" range puts you in counter-fire range of all kinds of horribleness in this game. The scatterlaser laughs at you from 36" out. And your other three terminator dudes are useless as ever.

D Scythes put you in counter-fire range of all kinds of horribleness in this game. Gauss guns put you in counter fire range. The other three Terminators cause multiple additional wounds. You seem to be asking for a unit that's impossible to kill which I won't create. Instead, I've created a unit that most Marine players would potentially consider taking.

"You'll also notice that nowhere in the Terminator armor description are they disallowed from Sweeping Advance. "

So they can sweep in that assault that never happens. Got it.

Yes I forgot, assaults never happen in this game anymore, ever. Thanks for letting me know.

"With my above suggestion, most of your fears are removed"

No, not really.

"Terminators in my mind have always deep struck"

Why? Deep striking sucks. Of course, foot slogging also sucks, as does riding in a Land Raider. The mobility problem is part of the suck equation for terminators.

Holy crap dude. So for you, Webway portal D-Scythes suck because they Deep Strike. Drop Pods suck because they Deep Strike (thus completely rendering your argument about Skyhammer moot). Can you at least try to maintain some semblance of an argument without defeating your own points?

"Terminators come in after these units and get the first hit against them"

Not necessarily. That's a horrible assumption as an actual game unfolds.

Expand on this point. How is it a horrible assumption other than how my suggested Terminators deep strike D3". And apparently, Skyhammer also doesn't get the first hit in, because "it's a horrible assumption". You keep arguing against your own points.

"dealt by these "pathetic" STr4 weapons. "

And I still say S4 weapons are pitiful. There's too many units that just don't give a feth.

Neat, clearly Shuriken weapons are useless because they're Str4. Gauss weapons are useless because they are Str4. Old D-scythes, nobody ever took them because they were Str4.
The Terminators I have suggested give weight of fire and BS5, which makes Str4 worth it.

"D Scythes put you in counter-fire range of all kinds of horribleness in this game. Gauss guns put you in counter fire range."

D scythes accomplish something though. Assault cannons and storm bolters? Don't make me piss in my power armor with laughter. Necrons don't care about the counter fire. They are giving up far fewer points per cleared wound than terminators. Their durability/pt is so much higher its disgusting. So that's a false equivalency.

"Can you at least try to maintain some semblance of an argument without defeating your own points? "

Unassisted deep strike was what I was referrring to. Deep strike and shoot leaves you in "Please rape me" formation. With your terminators, it's deep strike in, shoot some guns no one cares about and then get raped by real weapons. Against these guys, even plasma cannons are good. That's amusing right there.

" You seem to be asking for a unit that's impossible to kill which I won't create. Instead, I've created a unit that most Marine players would potentially consider taking. "

Now who's not reading. Everything dies in this game now except for a few select units with the right stats for true durability. Terminators are one wound and T4, so they will never have durability in this game at this point. So you have to fix their offense. Which your changes don't do, in my opinion. It's really moot because the GW terminators are still awful and no one is going to play with homebrew terminators.

"The Terminators I have suggested give weight of fire and BS5, which makes Str4 worth it."

No pseudo rending and no gauss rule makes them still gak. Ask the DA how huge amounts of S4 dakka worked out in their 6th ed codex. S4 with no special rules is terrible firepower in 7th ed.

"Skyhammer also doesn't get the first hit in"

Sky hammer picks its turn and can engage a much greater range of opponents than a couple of lame ass assault cannons and a bunch of useless stormbolters. I've been playing since they put reserves in and I've seen them backfire so many times. That's why drop pods are so hot; they short circuit that problem with drop pod assault.

"Yes I forgot, assaults never happen in this game anymore, ever. Thanks for letting me know"

They often come after 80% of the Astartes have been blown apart by shooting, making them a moot point. Only the Skyhammer cheese force changes this. But is it necessary to even make assault a thing? That's the question. GW has really painted itself into a corner.

You're kind of straw manning quint. He would most likely admit that many of those are exceptions to his stance, except that putting in each exception would be incredibly time consuming. For example, anything that has no-scatter and anti-mishap functions along with good firepower bucks the trend of deep striking sucking.

And melee really doesn't happen anymore. At wgc, I was involved in melee like 3 times in the whole tournament. Most of that was necron wraiths, one of the few melee units to be so utterly broken-good that it actually steps into awesome territory despite being a melee unit.
With a few exceptions, shoothammer 40k is as strong as ever.

And str 4 is pitiful. Maybe not in lgs funsies games. But in top tables you'll only find str 4 shots in someone's list of they were forced to take them like the Warriors in a decurion. Again, there's an exception. My battle company build relied on overwhelming with obsec units and didn't care that str 4 sucks, I just wanted more bodies and units. With an army full of bolt shots and doctrines to reroll hits, I regularly killed less than 10 models in entire games. I only killed 3 in game 1.

Martel732 wrote:
"Can you at least try to maintain some semblance of an argument without defeating your own points? "

Unassisted deep strike was what I was referrring to. Deep strike and shoot leaves you in "Please rape me" formation. With your terminators, it's deep strike in, shoot some guns no one cares about and then get raped by real weapons.

" You seem to be asking for a unit that's impossible to kill which I won't create. Instead, I've created a unit that most Marine players would potentially consider taking. "

Now who's not reading. Everything dies in this game now except for a few select units with the right stats for true durability. Terminators are one wound and T4, so they will never have durability in this game at this point. So you have to fix their offense. Which your changes don't do, in my opinion. It's really moot because the GW terminators are still awful and no one is going to play with homebrew terminators.

"The Terminators I have suggested give weight of fire and BS5, which makes Str4 worth it."

No pseudo rending and no gauss rule makes them still gak. Ask the DA how huge amounts of S4 dakka worked out in their 6th ed codex. S4 with no special rules is terrible firepower in 7th ed.

"Skyhammer also doesn't get the first hit in"

Sky hammer picks its turn and can engage a much greater range of opponents than a couple of lame ass assault cannons and a bunch of useless stormbolters. I've been playing since they put reserves in and I've seen them backfire so many times. That's why drop pods are so hot; they short circuit that problem with drop pod assault.

D3 Deep Strike is about as close to unassisted as you can get, while still requiring some sort of risk management. And obviously nobody does homebrew, this is a thought exercise. feth, the name of the forum is PROPOSED rules.

P.S. Wind rider jet bikes are only 1 wound. 1 wound isn't bad and if 1 wound is a big deal we'll guess what my proposed sergeant has 2.

Dark Angels were just bad in 6th, giving them salvo was like putting lipstick on a pig.

Ah and now Assault cannons are bad too? Then why did you say the whole unit needed assault cannons if it doesn't matter. You're arguing against your own points again dude.

Since you think I can't read which is adorable all things considered, here's your ideal terminators:

2 wounds, assault cannons for everyone ( even though they are lame ass), and ability to deep strike with no penalty while being able to move shoot and potentially assault.

But hey who cares right. It's all homebrew so how about relax because this isn't the thread for self loathing BA players

"Ah and now Assault cannons are bad too? "

Two of them are. Five of them start to get something done. But are still inferior to scatterbikes. Just like two scatterlasers are pretty weak, but Eldar put them everywhere and mass them up and then they become nightmarish. It's all about massing firepower. Which your proposed squad is not doing, and so it's not getting things done.

"2 wounds, assault cannons for everyone ( even though they are lame ass), and ability to deep strike with no penalty while being able to move shoot and potentially assault. "

Still can't read because I only proposed one of those things.

"P.S. Wind rider jet bikes are only 1 wound"

And they are very good at never getting shot at. And if they do, most Imperial weapons that reach 36" are very ineffectual.

" for self loathing BA players"

I loathe many things, but I don't blame myself for GW's stupidity.

I was working on terminators some time and have some really working ideas:
1) Personal teleporter - something like warp spiders' jump pack, but one model removes by any doubles - doubles of 1 are too nobrain.
2) Rerolls of armor saves from weapon with AP equal or less than 4. Why the terminator can be so easily killed by bunch of guardsmen?
3) Special weapons for any number of models in unit.