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" My suggestion for 2/4 salvo rending storm bolters for 35 point terms I think is a little more realistic and you wouldn't need to change the fluff of terms."

It's better than nothing, but still probably not worth 35 pts. They just aren't generating enough non-rending wounds because of S4 and a low model count.

Also keep in mind that judging from his posts, Bharring seems to play a lot of self-nerfed Eldar. Against Eldar players that aren't holding back, I don't think the assault cannon terminators would even turn the tide of the match up. They would just become the new victims of the D-scythes or what have you.

Aren't IKs 13/13/12? So its 1/6 hurts vs nothing. AC wins by a landslide.

Against AV12+ vehicles, AV13+ SH, or MCs with an armor save better than 5+, ACs do an amazing amount more than Scatter Lasers.

The AC is better against anything but a 6+.

In fact, the AC is more deadly to *land raiders* than lascannons. Its that freaking versatile.

As for salvo 2/4 rending s4 stormbolters, really? Even for 35ppm, that's crazy talk.

Compare them to DAs, about half their points. +6 range. Twice the shots. *actual* rending. Omgwtfbbq that'd be broken.

Look at it this way. A 5-man gets 20 shots. That's 2 pens on a Land speeder or other AV10. Two HP, some of which pen, on Rhinos. It even has a chance to hurt an IK (small but possible). 20 shots for 175 points.

Not as bonkers as the AC suggestion (2 lower S), but still plenty crazy.

IKs are 13/12/11 actually.

Giving Terminators a rerollable 2+ save and a 4+ save with stormshields giving the invul a reroll is incredibly durable and 'about right' for its cost.

You could add in: for 5pts per model each terminator may upgrade their storm bolters with Storm Bolter Special Issue Ammuniton which changes the stormbolters profile to Rg 24" S4 Salvo 2/4 Rending.

"As for salvo 2/4 rending s4 stormbolters, really? Even for 35ppm, that's crazy talk."

It's not crazy, it's still weak.

"Omgwtfbbq that'd be broken. "

Says the Eldar player.

"Look at it this way. A 5-man gets 20 shots. That's 2 pens on a Land speeder or other AV10. Two HP, some of which pen, on Rhinos. It even has a chance to hurt an IK (small but possible). 20 shots for 175 points. "

Why do you think that's so good? That sound pretty pedestrian to me for a slow, expensive elite slot unit.

"Not as bonkers as the AC suggestion (2 lower S), but still plenty crazy."

Bonkers like the last few GW codices? Okay...

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:My suggestion for 2/4 salvo rending storm bolters for 35 point terms I think is a little more realistic and you wouldn't need to change the fluff of terms. They'd still put out decent firepower and have great CC ability. I know I would use them and it would be fun.

I would certainly support it and appreciate it too!

Bharring wrote:If you buff Termies up to glass cannon firepower, and retain their durability, how would that be fair?

I think that's the point he seems to be missing, no surprise for someone who looks up to game-breakers as an example of what to do.

I think it's fair to point out that jet bikes are not glass cannons...per point they take more dmg to take down the terminators...crazy huh?


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Bharring wrote:
Aren't IKs 13/13/12? So its 1/6 hurts vs nothing. AC wins by a landslide.

Against AV12+ vehicles, AV13+ SH, or MCs with an armor save better than 5+, ACs do an amazing amount more than Scatter Lasers.

The AC is better against anything but a 6+.

In fact, the AC is more deadly to *land raiders* than lascannons. Its that freaking versatile.

As for salvo 2/4 rending s4 stormbolters, really? Even for 35ppm, that's crazy talk.

Compare them to DAs, about half their points. +6 range. Twice the shots. *actual* rending. Omgwtfbbq that'd be broken.

Look at it this way. A 5-man gets 20 shots. That's 2 pens on a Land speeder or other AV10. Two HP, some of which pen, on Rhinos. It even has a chance to hurt an IK (small but possible). 20 shots for 175 points.

Not as bonkers as the AC suggestion (2 lower S), but still plenty crazy.

nope - IK have 12 side armor - Trust me - I've had my IK killed by units of scatter bikes...the eldar guy was even nice and only used them in squads of 3.

Why would I compare them to DA? I already compared them to an eldar troop. If I did - I'd rather chose guardianss. 3.5x less. 18 gardians have 36 pseudo rending shots compared to the "super ultra buffed" terms that have 20 actaul rending shots...effectively half the firepower vs infantry per point....and are slow moving elites that can't even board a transport that cost less than 200 points...

"If you buff Termies up to glass cannon firepower"

Actually, a 45 pt model with a 24" range with T4 W1 2+/5++ IS a glass cannon in 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:
"If you buff Termies up to glass cannon firepower"

Actually, a 45 pt model with a 24" range with T4 W1 2+/5++ IS a glass cannon in 7th ed.

It's not even that martel - it's simple math to prove that vs standard str 4 firepower that terms are less durable per point than basic marines. Vs AP2 scatter bikes are actually more surviavlable per point EVEN IF YOU PAID 45 points for a scatter bike because they jink for 4+ compared to a 5++ save.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"If you buff Termies up to glass cannon firepower"

Actually, a 45 pt model with a 24" range with T4 W1 2+/5++ IS a glass cannon in 7th ed.

It's not even that martel - it's simple math to prove that vs standard str 4 firepower that terms are less durable per point than basic marines. Vs AP2 scatter bikes are actually more surviavlable per point EVEN IF YOU PAID 45 points for a scatter bike because they jink for 4+ compared to a 5++ save.

The rest of the enemy list doesn't exist in their comparisons. Just like it's no one individual Eldar unit that can't be countered; it's their lists that can't be countered because its a wall of STR D and S 6 high ROF.

The worst part is that even with 45 ppm AC terminators, skyhammer is STILL much better because assault from deepstrike and relentless gravcannons w/amps. It's like people don't even know what's already in the game.

As much as I'm 100% behind increasing their durability big time, regarding termie with shield - s allowing a 4++ with reroll not a little bit too powertful? Just measuring it up, a lascannon hit would now stand a mere 8.3% chance of wounding them, whereas by comparison is stands a 33% chance of damaging a land raider. That doesn't seem right to me. A change like that would really screw over heavy weapons, and I'm not sure that's the desired result here. Thoughts?

 thegreatchimp wrote:
As much as I'm 100% behind increasing their durability big time, regarding termie with shield - s allowing a 4++ with reroll not a little bit too powertful? Just measuring it up, a lascannon hit would now stand a mere 8.3% chance of wounding them, whereas by comparison is stands a 33% chance of damaging a land raider. That doesn't seem right to me. A change like that would really screw over heavy weapons, and I'm not sure that's the desired result here. Thoughts?

As I have stated, putting on additional saves is not my preferred method of handling this. Also, single shot weapons like the lascannon are really poor in 7th ed. The whole 4++ reroll thing is there to survive grav. And grav was implemented to kill 2+ save MCs, which were the original sin of 6th ed imo.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Make storm bolters assault 3 DONE.
Give them back "follow on fire" DONE.
STOP CREATING THESE THEADS

whats follow on fire?

Lol It's the whole point of "storm bolters" what made them different from "bloomin bolters" in the first place!: follow on fire means every wound (note NOT a successful save) generates a free extra shot.

So your 5 storm bolter guys if they are assault 3 means 15 shots.. which say.. 10 hit.. then 6 wound you get to roll 6 more shots to hit and so on

Thats where I think, if Termies get a reroll it should be Armor only.

Also, how are Bikes more resilient than Termies per point?
For AP4+ weapons, they die exactly twice as fast. At 27ppm, thats a lot less than double.
For AP3 weapons, its either 6x as fast (without jinking), or 3x as fast (Jinking).
For AP2 weapons, they can sacrifice 75% of their shooting to get a 4+ cover vs a stock 5++.

They win in survivability *if and only if* its AP2 ("Terminator Killer" weapons), AND they sacrifice 75% of their firepower.

At 27ppm vs 35ppm, even at 27ppm vs 45ppm, they are still much, much less survivable per point.

The math is rather damning there. So its crazy to claim Wind riders are more durable per point.

I take your point about IKs. Assuming you hit side/rear armor, as they are 13/12/11, AC Termies wouldn't be better per point against that threat. That just leaves almost every other scary thing in the game on either the really-close list, or the AC-destroys list.

And comparing salvo 2/4 rending stormbolters to Guardians? Twice the range (funny how that 12" only matters when the favored army doesn't have it?). Affects vehicles. Not APed by boltguns. T4. 5++. Amazing CC vs one of the weakest CCs in the game. Chapter Tactics. Leadership shenanigans. Basically, its a glass cannon that can outperform such Termies, yes. In specific setups.


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(I even looked up IKs where I could, but that source said 13/13/12. Not a reliable source aparrently!)

 thegreatchimp wrote:
As much as I'm 100% behind increasing their durability big time, regarding termie with shield - s allowing a 4++ with reroll not a little bit too powertful? Just measuring it up, a lascannon hit would now stand a mere 8.3% chance of wounding them, whereas by comparison is stands a 33% chance of damaging a land raider. That doesn't seem right to me. A change like that would really screw over heavy weapons, and I'm not sure that's the desired result here. Thoughts?

Well, a Storm Shield Termie gets 3++ currently, which has a 1/3 chance to fail.
If it's 4++ rerollable, then that's a 1/4 chance to fail.
To compare easier that mains currently it's 4/12 to fail, being lowered to 3/12 to fail.
Not THAT big a jump.

Might I ask how everyone feels towards the idea of the Sergeant being able to swap his Power Sword for a different Power Weapon?

"Guardians?"

Base guardians aren't good. That's why I never see them.


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 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:
As much as I'm 100% behind increasing their durability big time, regarding termie with shield - s allowing a 4++ with reroll not a little bit too powertful? Just measuring it up, a lascannon hit would now stand a mere 8.3% chance of wounding them, whereas by comparison is stands a 33% chance of damaging a land raider. That doesn't seem right to me. A change like that would really screw over heavy weapons, and I'm not sure that's the desired result here. Thoughts?

Well, a Storm Shield Termie gets 3++ currently, which has a 1/3 chance to fail.
If it's 4++ rerollable, then that's a 1/4 chance to fail.
To compare easier that mains currently it's 4/12 to fail, being lowered to 3/12 to fail.
Not THAT big a jump.

Might I ask how everyone feels towards the idea of the Sergeant being able to swap his Power Sword for a different Power Weapon?

You might as well, but it makes little difference as they usually die before they reach CC. Too... slow....

The typical MO for tactical terminators is to deep strike in, shoot ineffectually, and then get crippled by return fire before their "amazing CC" comes into play. This is what needs addressed.

The struggle is whether we want their initial entrance into the battlefield to accomplish something via shooting or for them to somehow magically be able to slog into CC. There are so many units in the game that are done when you get them into CC that I don't think that units with "amazing CC" are necessary. The challenge is to get into CC without being obliterated. Terminators really don't fare well in that department. There is also the issue of units like Windriders that they can never, ever catch.

@ "Guardians?"
Gardians have more firepower than the terminators I am suggesting. with 2/4 slavo rending SB.
Terms 8.5 points per shot.
guardians 5 points per shot.

Obviously it there are other factors to consider here but it's pretty clear that gardians do more dmg per point even after I suggest doubling the shots from a SB.

and guardians aren't even very good. Though - they are better than most think.

To infantry within 12", yes.

To vehicles, or things 13-24" away no.

So your suggestion makes one of the more durable CC units in the game not have quite as much dakka when shooting as one of the least durable shooty units, when in easy assault range?

" of the more durable CC units in the game "

They are not durable at all. That's one of the problems.

Compared to Guardians? Really?

Bharring wrote:
Compared to Guardians? Really?

In the scheme of the game. Why are we talking about guardians again?

And against grav/melta/plasma, the guardian is a LOT more durable.

I'd say give the sergeant 2W and perhaps a few abilities, like the exarchs from Eldar.

The sergeants used to have 2W in rogue traders as well, like somone here mentioned.

That would be enough to make characters wary of being challenged out by them. Would also make the game mor colourfull with "real" charachters instead of these 1W sergeants that you find everywhere.

 triplegrim wrote:
I'd say give the sergeant 2W and perhaps a few abilities, like the exarchs from Eldar.

The sergeants used to have 2W in rogue traders as well, like somone here mentioned.

That would be enough to make characters wary of being challenged out by them. Would also make the game mor colourfull with "real" charachters instead of these 1W sergeants that you find everywhere.

That's an interesting idea and has some merit, but doesn't really fix the underlying problems with the unit.

Against Boltguns, stubbers, lasguns, flamers, grenades, swords, axes, Splinter, Pulse weaponry, etc they arent at all.

Bharring wrote:
Against Boltguns, stubbers, lasguns, flamers, grenades, swords, axes, Splinter, Pulse weaponry, etc they arent at all.

Again, why is this relevant?

Bharring wrote:
To infantry within 12", yes.

To vehicles, or things 13-24" away no.

So your suggestion makes one of the more durable CC units in the game not have quite as much dakka when shooting as one of the least durable shooty units, when in easy assault range?

not "not quite as much" it's almost double. These guys are durable? Lets see em tank 36 psuedo rending shots....nope - they are dead. Average rolls kill over 4 terms. So for their high point cost and being "durable" they can't even take 18 guardians firepower....

There is more to this game than just Plasma Guns.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Compared to Guardians? Really?

In the scheme of the game. Why are we talking about guardians again?

And against grav/melta/plasma, the guardian is a LOT more durable.

I'm trying to dumb down my argument to prove that the buff i suggested doesn't even bring terms shooting in line with bad shooting squads...

Hoping to prove two points here. #1 - current terms are the most overpriced and terrible units in the game and #2 that doubling their firepower shouldn't even be contested anymore when it still doesn't even elevate them past guardians. At the least with this buff it would make them playable.

Bharring wrote:
There is more to this game than just Plasma Guns.

Yeah, those other guns would be the grav guns or D-weapons. The "regular" weapons are non-sequiturs now. Don't believe me? Try to play a fluffy marine list with lots of bolters. Even my crappy ass BA will run right over you because you can't keep me out of CC.

Well yes. But who let's Guardians stroll up and unload on Termies? Why would you let that happen. You should get two rounds of shots if the footslog. And mounting up more than doubles their cost.

So 18 Guardians kill 4 Termies?

Equal points - 5 Termies - kill, under the upgrade, 10+ Guardians a round. At 24", youre probably killing an EV of 20 of the 18 guardians before they can shoot. And Guardians would be one of their worse targets, whereas Termies is one of Guardians juiciest targets.


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(And you need what, 2 Termies in CC to beat 18 Guardians?)

Bharring wrote:
Well yes. But who let's Guardians stroll up and unload on Termies? Why would you let that happen. You should get two rounds of shots if the footslog. And mounting up more than doubles their cost.

So 18 Guardians kill 4 Termies?

Equal points - 5 Termies - kill, under the upgrade, 10+ Guardians a round. At 24", youre probably killing an EV of 20 of the 18 guardians before they can shoot. And Guardians would be one of their worse targets, whereas Termies is one of Guardians juiciest targets.


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(And you need what, 2 Termies in CC to beat 18 Guardians?)

I haven't seen guardians on foot for years. This is not a useful comparison.

I think your idea that the stormbolters are just an after thought sums up your position. But terminators are useless as CC units because of modern 7th list construction. They're not going after guardians on foot. They are going after Skyhammers and scatbikes and WKs. They are such optimal targets for so many weapon systems because I can kill a lot of pts by taking away very few wounds.

Bharring wrote:
Well yes. But who let's Guardians stroll up and unload on Termies? Why would you let that happen. You should get two rounds of shots if the footslog. And mounting up more than doubles their cost.

So 18 Guardians kill 4 Termies?

Equal points - 5 Termies - kill, under the upgrade, 10+ Guardians a round. At 24", youre probably killing an EV of 20 of the 18 guardians before they can shoot. And Guardians would be one of their worse targets, whereas Termies is one of Guardians juiciest targets.


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(And you need what, 2 Termies in CC to beat 18 Guardians?)

nope - terms will kill a few gards - they fall back and can't be overrun because - term. Then they get shot again.


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Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well yes. But who let's Guardians stroll up and unload on Termies? Why would you let that happen. You should get two rounds of shots if the footslog. And mounting up more than doubles their cost.

So 18 Guardians kill 4 Termies?

Equal points - 5 Termies - kill, under the upgrade, 10+ Guardians a round. At 24", youre probably killing an EV of 20 of the 18 guardians before they can shoot. And Guardians would be one of their worse targets, whereas Termies is one of Guardians juiciest targets.


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(And you need what, 2 Termies in CC to beat 18 Guardians?)

I haven't seen guardians on foot for years. This is not a useful comparison.

I think your idea that the stormbolters are just an after thought sums up your position. But terminators are useless as CC units because of modern 7th list construction. They're not going after guardians on foot. They are going after Skyhammers and scatbikes and WKs. They are such optimal targets for so many weapon systems because I can kill a lot of pts by taking away very few wounds.

I see foot gardians all the time when eldar players "dumb down" their lists. It's still enough to beat imperials that are trying really hard.