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Bharring wrote:
Of course you don't see Wraithlords in ultra competitive metas much right now. Because the WK is broken.

This is odd, I am taking 3 wraithlords ( and no wraithknights) to a tourney soon. I expect to do well.

Mind you they are banning LoW and Formations

Bharring wrote:
Well, clearly defining the goal might help.

Making them slightly more durable vs >AP4
Making them much more durable vs AP<4

I'm not completely closed minded about more dakka. I'm just resistant to it. I don't like the idea of losing my Tac Termies in all but name because another player wants to field his Tac Termies as Dev Cents. That said, I'd love a Dev Termie unit, perhaps with 2-3 Heavies per 5.

Sure, the CWE codex gets SL on troops. One codex I play gets that. I've never said they should have them the way they do. In fact, I regularly spout against it. But that should be a different thread.

None of my other codicies get it. SM, Tau, Harlies, DE, Corsairs. Not everyone just plays one Dex.

My SM Tac Termies aren't fielded for their storm bolter. They are better at CC than almost any unit in any of my other codexes. So why should they *also* be better at shooting than said units? Termies need help, but let's not just make them the new Scatter Bikes.

As for taking the medicine for one turn, then shooting them off the table, what can do that to 45ppm AC toting Termies? As shown, Scatter Bikes can't. Both better firepower and more survivability per point than Scatter Bikes is crazy. Throw in great CC, and things get silly.

Wraiths, TWC, and WWP Scytheguard are problems. Those are things that need fixing. Just adding things more broken than them just makes everything except this new godmode more pointless than you find them now.

I'm not saying keep the Tac Termies in the dirt. I'm saying don't one-up GW's Grav Cents. Especially not in the same breath you malign them for that crap.

What you fail to grasp is that your intended template has already been implemented. And most of us hate it. Grav Cents.

Also see no harm coming of allowing them 2 heavy weapons per 5 man squad, or failing that 2 per 7 man squad. Am I correct in saying they used to be allowed take 2 per 5 in previous codexes, or was that just wolf guard?

At 35 points terminators are fairly well balanced.
They are comparable to both ogryns and mega armored orks.
They are not great and they don't suck.
A decent formation bonus and they are great.

I think the biggest native buff they should get is 2w this makes them comparable to ork mega nobs and significantly cheaper but mega nobs are still overpriced. while increasing resiliency vs small arms fire or massed low str atks. But still makes them die to str8+ or mass ap2 Atks. Fnp, increased invul saves, or t5 makes them significantly stronger then they should be at 35pts.

Bharring wrote:
I'm afraid I have to question your banshee numbers.

1) Banshees kill 1/9 Termies per shot, with 1 shot each. Termies kill 2/9 Banshees with 2 shots each. So a Termie is *four times* as deadly to Banshees as Banshees are to Termies. Once Banshees get with 12", and somehow avoid the charge, of course.

2) In CC, a Banshee kills 2x(1/2)(1/3)(1/6) Termies a round. That's 1/18. So 15 banshees average *less* than 1 dead Termie a round. A Termie (2 attacks base) kills 2x(1/2)(5/6)(1) Banshees a round. That's 10/12. Even assuming 15 Banshees kill 1 Termie before he swings, that's still 40/12 dead Banshees. Notably over 3. So even 15:5, Termies destroy Banshees.

So Banshees lose at range. And Banshees lose at CC. And Banshees lose at claiming ground.

And those numbers are for Termies as they are now, not the proposed bonkers versions.

1. That's three banshees per Terminator though. SO that's more like 3/9 compared to the 2/9 for the Terminator. You're looking at single models, not point values. I did the same for Terminators and gave them Imperial Fists for better shooting. In the regular codex, that's about 2.5 dead Banshees at any range. For SoT, at half range that's about 3 dead.
2. They have WS5 in that formation. That's 3+ to hit, 5+ to wounds. That's at I5 with 30 attacks base, 45 on the charge for the comparable price point (15 Banshees is 195). This comes to about 1.5 dead Terminators. Factoring in what was probably 1.5 dead Terminators from shooting, I'd say that the Terminators are going to lose combat.

So let's say Terminators get the first round of shooting off, and the Imperial Fists kill 2.5 (we'll be generous with 3). We still have 12 Banshees, which leads into this:
1. 1.5 Terminators dead from shooting (guesstimate in my head, I don't have a calculator)
2. 1 Terminator dead on the charge.
So we'll be generous again and just say 2 died total, and we'll kill off the Sergeant because the Power Sword sucks, it won't be hitting soon enough to matter, and Power Fists wound easier. On their turn, they kill 2.5 Banshees.

See the issue here? Even when factoring in a Chapter Tactic that SHOULD be suited for them, it isn't working out. For comparison:
1. Ultramarines are basically doing the same for shooting. I haven't done calculations for melee.
2. With those casualties, Black Templars get Counter Attack, which is almost 4 dead Banshees. That's a significant improvement, but Terminators had to die for that to happen. Blech.
3. Iron Hands negate 1/6 of their deaths. Whether or not that's significant I don't know since I didn't do math for it yet.
4. LOLRavenGuard
5. LOLSalamanders (unless you think the Master Crafted Power Sword will do much. It doesn't. Exactly one dead Banshee a round isn't impressing me).
6. I did the Imperial Fist numbers.
7. Hit And Run is decent actually thanks to White Scars. You're only doing another 6 Storm Bolter shots though and the few more Power Fist attacks is comparable to the Counter Attack from Black Templars. You just merely add about one dead Banshee into the mix. VERY meh.

That's not even going over the FW tactics either.
1. Carcharodons might give them WS1, and if they killed something earlier they have Rage. Actually not bad. I will do the math for that later.
2. Star Phantoms get TL for a turn. Comparable to SoT math earlier, except only for one turn and can be at a further range.
3. I don't think Mantis Warriors get the HoW buff for their Terminators, but charging out of cover for Furious Charge does basically nothing for the Power Fists.
That about covers everything.

SOOOOO don't you think there's a bit of a problem?

"At 35 points terminators are fairly well balanced."

No, they're not. They're still easy-mode for your opponent.


" And most of us hate it. Grav Cents. "

Grav cents aren't that bad; it's the invisibility buff and the Draigo buff and the gate of infinity buff. 24" range is still all kinds of bad without those buffs.

"They are better at CC than almost any unit in any of my other codexes"

Too bad they never live to get there. You keep acting like CC is a thing. It isn't unless you are rocking Skyhammer or Wraiths or TWC.

" what can do that to 45ppm AC toting Termies?"

Pretty sure my BA can, given that I've killed 2.5 DK in one turn before. They are gonna hose down a unit and then I punish them, just like everything else in this game. Except for the special snowflake units. In the case of scatterbikes, the Eldar have multiple solutions for 2+ armor. Terminators don't last long against Eldar.

" That said, I'd love a Dev Termie unit, perhaps with 2-3 Heavies per 5. "

I would never use tactical terminators over this unit. Ever. That's my point.

"Wraiths, TWC, and WWP Scytheguard are problems. "

No, they are not. They are examples of what a unit has to be to be a CC unit in 7th ed. You perceive them as a problem because you just can't shoot them off the board trivially with Xeno firepower.

"I'm saying don't one-up GW's Grav Cents"

You think AC terminators one-up grav cents? That's T-totally crazy.

"Making them slightly more durable vs >AP4
Making them much more durable vs AP<4"

The problem is that THIS already exists as well: assault centurions.

1) Its 3/9 for 3 banshees. Its 2/9 per shot, or 4/9 per Termie. So at points parity, its 3:4, in Termies favor. Before CT or Formation bonuses.

2) Banshees need to get the charge to get 45 total attacks. Normal combat is 30. So let's see what happens if they run in:
T1, Termies get first salvo, obviously. Kills 4/9 per Termie, so 2+ eat it. At 15 Banshees (2-3 units), at least one unit now needs an LD check
Banshees? They need to cross 12" by BFing *towards* the Termies in order to shoot. 13 Banshees kill 1.5 Termies.
3.5 Termies move up and shoot back. Kill nearly 2. In total, EV of 11 left. Now they have a < 6" charge. Odds are small that Overwatch does anything, but we'll claim only 3 make it.
Banshees strike first. 11x2x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6). 22 attacks, killing 1 for every 27 attacks (assuming formation). Let's say one bites it.
2 Termies have 6 attacks on the charge. 2x3x(1/2)(5/6)(1). 6 attacks at 5/12 kills/attack. 2.5 Banshees bite it.

Even with CWE Formation, no CT or formation for Termies, Termies win combat by 2.5: <1.

But wait! Eldar Shenanigans! Of course, Banshees could ensure they get the charge! Sure, but it means giving Termies at least 2 rounds of shooting before they even get to shoot. So:
T1 - 5 Termies kill 2+
T2 - 5 Termies kill 2+
T3 - 10 Banshees kill 1
-CC - 3x10x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6) = 30/27 dead Termies. 1 more dies.
-Rebuttle - 3x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1) = 30/12, or 2.5 dead Banshees.

Oddly the same numbers either way.

But 5 Termies beat 15 Banshees.

(14 Banshees are a few more points than 5 Termies.)

So if we stock things in Banshees favor, Termies still win.

Bharring wrote:
1) Its 3/9 for 3 banshees. Its 2/9 per shot, or 4/9 per Termie. So at points parity, its 3:4, in Termies favor. Before CT or Formation bonuses.

2) Banshees need to get the charge to get 45 total attacks. Normal combat is 30. So let's see what happens if they run in:
T1, Termies get first salvo, obviously. Kills 4/9 per Termie, so 2+ eat it. At 15 Banshees (2-3 units), at least one unit now needs an LD check
Banshees? They need to cross 12" by BFing *towards* the Termies in order to shoot. 13 Banshees kill 1.5 Termies.
3.5 Termies move up and shoot back. Kill nearly 2. In total, EV of 11 left. Now they have a < 6" charge. Odds are small that Overwatch does anything, but we'll claim only 3 make it.
Banshees strike first. 11x2x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6). 22 attacks, killing 1 for every 27 attacks (assuming formation). Let's say one bites it.
2 Termies have 6 attacks on the charge. 2x3x(1/2)(5/6)(1). 6 attacks at 5/12 kills/attack. 2.5 Banshees bite it.

Even with CWE Formation, no CT or formation for Termies, Termies win combat by 2.5: <1.

But wait! Eldar Shenanigans! Of course, Banshees could ensure they get the charge! Sure, but it means giving Termies at least 2 rounds of shooting before they even get to shoot. So:
T1 - 5 Termies kill 2+
T2 - 5 Termies kill 2+
T3 - 10 Banshees kill 1
-CC - 3x10x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6) = 30/27 dead Termies. 1 more dies.
-Rebuttle - 3x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1) = 30/12, or 2.5 dead Banshees.

Oddly the same numbers either way.

But 5 Termies beat 15 Banshees.

(14 Banshees are a few more points than 5 Termies.)

So if we stock things in Banshees favor, Termies still win.

They both lose because they are CC units in a dakka edition. A real Eldar list will shoot the terminators to death from a safe distance, just as most marine lists will shoot the Banshees to death from a safe distance.

As Terminators aren't going to be changed anytime soon (unless the next codex does something drastic) what would you propose as constructive way of fielding them? if the answer is "none" then maybe they can hang out on the shelf.
I like assault terminators too but I don't think it's constructive to day dream of alternative rules to change the entire meta and the opposing meta that your opponents bring to fit a play style/unit you like. It's entirely possible that the age of using your terminators competitively is long dead. Maybe you can use them for narrative games or ask your friends to make friendly alterations to their lists.

I like basilisk as well but I wouldn't lament the fact that I can't tank shock effectively against my opponents dreadnought, run to the forums and then look for hypothetical rules where I can run a basilisk list to deal with my friends dreads. Which is what I feel this thread is basically.

^Going "oh, they can't be used" is what isn't constructive. Trying to "day dream of alternative rules to change the entire meta and the opposing meta that your opponents bring to fit a play style/unit you like" is the whole point of this subforum and if you don't like it you're free to go elsewhere.
This IS constructive, it can help figure out how to make things better and if a particularly good solution is reached, it can potentially be house-ruled.
And your example is odd, they're trying to fix a unit that it doing very well in its particular role, not trying to shove them into doing a particular thing against a particular unit regardless of any logic to the contrary. Totally fits Martel's arguments, but not anyone else's.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
^Going "oh, they can't be used" is what isn't constructive. Trying to "day dream of alternative rules to change the entire meta and the opposing meta that your opponents bring to fit a play style/unit you like" is the whole point of this subforum and if you don't like it you're free to go elsewhere.
This IS constructive, it can help figure out how to make things better and if a particularly good solution is reached, it can potentially be house-ruled.
And your example is odd, they're trying to fix a unit that it doing very well in its particular role, not trying to shove them into doing a particular thing against a particular unit regardless of any logic to the contrary. Totally fits Martel's arguments, but not anyone else's.

Terms are still viable out of a land raider - problem is land raiders aren't that viable. If we saw a 50 point reduction to LR - I think you'd start seeing terms and assault centurions more often.

 Inkubas wrote:
As Terminators aren't going to be changed anytime soon (unless the next codex does something drastic) what would you propose as constructive way of fielding them? if the answer is "none" then maybe they can hang out on the shelf.
I like assault terminators too but I don't think it's constructive to day dream of alternative rules to change the entire meta and the opposing meta that your opponents bring to fit a play style/unit you like. It's entirely possible that the age of using your terminators competitively is long dead. Maybe you can use them for narrative games or ask your friends to make friendly alterations to their lists.

I like basilisk as well but I wouldn't lament the fact that I can't tank shock effectively against my opponents dreadnought, run to the forums and then look for hypothetical rules where I can run a basilisk list to deal with my friends dreads. Which is what I feel this thread is basically.

They currently fit the description of "unfieldable crap". Assault terminators look good on paper until you actually try to get them into CC.

I find the proposed rules threads interesting though experiments, even though no one where I play will ever agree to anything in here. I suspect many are in the same boat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
^Going "oh, they can't be used" is what isn't constructive. Trying to "day dream of alternative rules to change the entire meta and the opposing meta that your opponents bring to fit a play style/unit you like" is the whole point of this subforum and if you don't like it you're free to go elsewhere.
This IS constructive, it can help figure out how to make things better and if a particularly good solution is reached, it can potentially be house-ruled.
And your example is odd, they're trying to fix a unit that it doing very well in its particular role, not trying to shove them into doing a particular thing against a particular unit regardless of any logic to the contrary. Totally fits Martel's arguments, but not anyone else's.

Terms are still viable out of a land raider - problem is land raiders aren't that viable. If we saw a 50 point reduction to LR - I think you'd start seeing terms and assault centurions more often.

Land Raiders. LOL. With two of the most powerful codices packing Gauss and Strength D, this tank just became complete garbage.

I agree with the "Thought Experiment" reasons.

Zagman's Erratas attempt to be more (haven't followed those lately), but otherwise most of these threads are too toy around with ideas and refine our understandings.

I rejoined the thread actively because there were some factual inaccuracies. I'm sure the player(s) getting destroyed by BS5 Guardians are better off knowing that that isn't actually a thing, for instance.

And thought experiments are more useful when the assumptions are closer to reality, so challenging things like "Windrider more durable/pt than Termie" should be useful.

Odds of rules coming up in this thread becoming rules due to this thread is near zero. But that doesn't make it useless.

I'm still curious: does anyone here NOT see terminators just get shot to death? Like every game? Are people playing bad lists? Are people forgetting that the terminators are on the board?

I am taking 65-100 S6 shots from Eldar every turn, and that doesn't include the Str D weapons. If they have D-scythes, forget it. There's no way for terminators to close against that. Against Necrons, they'll get shot and then fight Wraiths. Against marines, it's grav cannons to the face. I just don't see how anyone thinks that the powerfist/stormbolter combination will ever accomplish anything with the current profiles.

Keep the points the same but allow them 2 heavies per 5 (Like Sternguard) and combi weapons. Then they're worth something, right now they can't kill enough.

demontalons wrote:
Keep the points the same but allow them 2 heavies per 5 (Like Sternguard) and combi weapons. Then they're worth something, right now they can't kill enough.

This makes them more like chaos terminators for sure, but the are still overpaying for that powerfist. But it's one of the better ideas on here. They can deep strike in, and actually do something. I'd probably forget the heavies and go all combis just like Chaos, though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
^Going "oh, they can't be used" is what isn't constructive. Trying to "day dream of alternative rules to change the entire meta and the opposing meta that your opponents bring to fit a play style/unit you like" is the whole point of this subforum and if you don't like it you're free to go elsewhere.
This IS constructive, it can help figure out how to make things better and if a particularly good solution is reached, it can potentially be house-ruled.
And your example is odd, they're trying to fix a unit that it doing very well in its particular role, not trying to shove them into doing a particular thing against a particular unit regardless of any logic to the contrary. Totally fits Martel's arguments, but not anyone else's.

Terms are still viable out of a land raider - problem is land raiders aren't that viable. If we saw a 50 point reduction to LR - I think you'd start seeing terms and assault centurions more often.

That sounds fair, since Land Raiders seem to be another problem unit.
Also maybe the normal Land Raider needs a bigger points drop than the Crusader and Redeemer, since it's seems a lot of people diss the normal one in particular for being "schizo".

Though another thing is that maybe in general Deep Strike should be "you can Shoot or Assault on the turn you Deep Strike - pick one", but that's a different discussion. And Terminators in specific could have a rule that says that should get both.
It seems like making Termies viable in general isn't too tricky, just a good all around buff is what's needed but while Martel's "give them all Assault Cannons or it's pointless because Scatterbikes" attitude is obviously faulty, their firepower does need SOME specific attention because if it's just stuff like improved stats, Assault on Deep Strike, rerollable Armor Save, 4++ that the Storm Shield rerolls instead and so on you'd have lots of people going "Cool, I'll take some now - the TH/SS and LC versions, of course!". Their ranged power needs a bit of a boost to be worth picking over the strictly CC version.
The Salvo 2/4 Rending Storm Bolter is a good idea and not just for Termies, 2 Heavy Weapons per 5 dudes seems reasonable enough, seeing this talk of Combis makes me consider my earlier "crazy suggestion" of Special Weapons (Meltagun, Plasma Gun, Flamer and Grav-Gun) being options to replace the Storm Bolter for everyone, though that would have to be reasonably pricey. Also this is where the thought of letting them Shoot AND Assault on Deep Striking came from, an incentive to pick the shooty ones because they'll get to do both whereas the strictly choppy ones would still only get to do one.

Also small things but I want to mention them:
1) Once again, letting the Sergeant replace his Power Sword with a different Power Weapon. The Power Axe would fit a lot better with Power Fists.
1a) We could also consider letting him take a Heavy Weapon without it counting towards the 2 per 5 guys limit, if needed.
2) Getting rid of the distinction between "Tactical Terminators" and "Assault Terminators", just having the Lighting Claws and Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield be options to replace the Storm Bolter/Power Fist default combo like how the Dark Angels Codex does it.

"an incentive to pick the shooty ones because they'll get to do both whereas the strictly choppy ones would still only get to do one. "

Something assaulted by assault terminators generally don't need to be shot first. That's the issue with this proposal. Plus, no one cares if they get shot by stormbolters. Especially if it's followed up by power fist attacks immediately.

"Their ranged power needs a bit of a boost to be worth picking over the strictly CC version. "

I don't think there's a way to do with a stormbolter-based terminator. The firepower incentive just will never be there.

" their firepower does need SOME specific attention because if it's just stuff like improved stats, Assault on Deep Strike, rerollable Armor Save, 4++ that the Storm Shield rerolls instead and so on you'd have lots of people going "Cool, I'll take some now - the TH/SS and LC versions, of course!"."

If you don't give them the assault cannons, this is what's going to happen. The stormbolter has them in too much of a firepower hole. Even a salvo 2/4 rending stormbolter is still a "pray for 6's" weapon. Buying expensive models like terminators and then praying for "6's" is a fast way to lose. Necrons pray for 6's, but on their schmuckos, Eldar pray for 6's but also on their schmuckos. Expensive marine elites should not be praying for 6's. The S6 is the key part of the assault cannon; S4 causes too few regular aggregate wounds. If I lived close enough to play you, you could field 20 tac terminators and I'd show this to you over and over as I ignored their shooting capabilities.

If you understood this problem from the beginning, it would have saved a lot of time if you had said so. My assault cannon proposal is to address this exact problem. Tac terminators need to be able to do something when not in base to base contact with the enemy to make them remotely worth fielding. Otherwise, I'll just take more grav bikes. That's the reality you are up against.

"It seems like making Termies viable in general isn't too tricky"

It's actually proving to be nearly impossible if we work within the constraints of the existing modeled terminators.

Oh boy, more Assault Cannon fetish from you!
Yeah, they need more firepower, which is why we''re talking about buffing the Storm Bolter to make it worthwhile, instead of giving up like little wimps

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually proving to be nearly impossible if we work within the constraints of the existing modeled terminators.

Nah, it's simple, you're just dismissing everything because you use a game-breaker as the standard, which is why you'll never have anything to contribute to this thread and should just stop posting in it.

What about:
-40ppm
-2 Heavies per 5
-Sarge has Power Weapon
-Termie Armor gains - Armor Saves do not count towards the limit of only taking one save.

Storm Shields (including Shield Eternal) would certainly have to go up in price.

Can be configured with several different substantial weapon options.
Can soak a lot more AP3+ firepower.

Storm bolters stay Storm Bolters. No models need to change. Termies retain their intended role, but can do it better now.

Thoughts?

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Oh boy, more Assault Cannon fetish from you!
Yeah, they need more firepower, which is why we''re talking about buffing the Storm Bolter to make it worthwhile, instead of giving up like little wimps

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually proving to be nearly impossible if we work within the constraints of the existing modeled terminators.

Nah, it's simple, you're just dismissing everything because you use a game-breaker as the standard, which is why you'll never have anything to contribute to this thread and should just stop posting in it.

I suspect that most people would disagree with you about that, given all the posts I have made and the reasons I have stated. It's not a fetish, I outlined very good reasons, which were in fact your same reasons. My challenge to you is to make the S4 stormbolter worthwhile. I don't think you can given the price point on terminators.

Bharring wrote:
What about:
-40ppm
-2 Heavies per 5
-Sarge has Power Weapon
-Termie Armor gains - Armor Saves do not count towards the limit of only taking one save.

Storm Shields (including Shield Eternal) would certainly have to go up in price.

Can be configured with several different substantial weapon options.
Can soak a lot more AP3+ firepower.

Storm bolters stay Storm Bolters. No models need to change. Termies retain their intended role, but can do it better now.

Thoughts?

Ehh. Can we just have Terminators be able to take there nat 5++ as ward save ala fantasy? only specific to terminator armor. thats a 2+ 5++ against most things + FNP if you need. or a 3++ 5++ against AP2. (with a Storm shield)

It increases there survivability a little bit without going overboard

Bharring wrote:
What about:
-40ppm
-2 Heavies per 5
-Sarge has Power Weapon
-Termie Armor gains - Armor Saves do not count towards the limit of only taking one save.

Storm Shields (including Shield Eternal) would certainly have to go up in price.

Can be configured with several different substantial weapon options.
Can soak a lot more AP3+ firepower.

Storm bolters stay Storm Bolters. No models need to change. Termies retain their intended role, but can do it better now.

Thoughts?

So they get 2+ and 5++ vs small arms. But they are still are a very ignorable unit in terms of ranged firepower, even with two assault cannons. I don't know about you, but I can't afford to pay so many points for a unit that can be ignored until they get in assault range.

I feel this hurts lists like IG worse than most, because any list with mobile AP 2 doesn't care about the buff. Eldar will shoot scatterlasers at a juicer target (A squad of scatterbikes still wipes half the squad!) and then use AP2 or pseudo rending against these guys. Likewise, grav bikers say "HI!".

Whatever you think their intended role is, they still won't be able to do it, especially since you increased the price again. They are paying WAY too much for that they have right now. You are giving them something, but making them pay. It will be the same story. Oh, some powerfists might get close to me? Die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way to look at this is that tac terminators directly compete with Sternguards. For the same price I can even get combi-weapon Sternguard that ride a pod. These guys have an immediate turn 1 impact because they don't roll for reserves and actually are dangerous in shooting. Compare to terminators that don't arrive till turn 2 and accomplish nothing the turn they arrive.

Even without combis, the sternguard have better firepower/pt because the special ammo can mimic S6 against T4 models and have the option for ignoring cover against poorly armored units.

The only thing Terminators have over them is a save that is ignored by a huge number of weapons in the game now and additional CC ability. The CC ability is a joke, because there aren't that many units that terminators would beat that Sternguard wouldn't.

Immunity to weapons of S4 and lower. To me that is the thing that utterly kills them off. People pouring massed low strengt shots at them.

This way they would be really scary and also perhaps worth their outrageous price. I've even stopped using them because even though I love them they only ever disappoint me.

 Bonesnapper wrote:
Immunity to weapons of S4 and lower. To me that is the thing that utterly kills them off. People pouring massed low strengt shots at them.

This way they would be really scary and also perhaps worth their outrageous price. I've even stopped using them because even though I love them they only ever disappoint me.

That hits the IG really hard, though. Their best anti-terminator weapon is the lasgun

Martel732 wrote:
I suspect that most people would disagree with you about that, given all the posts I have made and the reasons I have stated.

Considering you're the only one pushing this ridiculous angle... Nope, you're alone!
All those posts in which you push the same ridiculous OP solution and disregard everything else? Yep you made loads of those and all it does and royally screw over the reasonable points of the dicussion!

Martel732 wrote:
It's not a fetish

You're right, it could be trolling instead.

Martel732 wrote:
I outlined very good reasons

Nope, you dismissed everyone else's good reasons because the result isn't OP enough for your (WAAC, TFG, etc.) tastes.

Martel732 wrote:
which were in fact your same reasons.

Nope. I want them to have a general overall buff, which includes some firepower buffs so LC and TH/SS won't be an auto-take. You just want to make them stupidly shooty because of an unrelated problem unit.

Martel732 wrote:
My challenge to you is to make the S4 stormbolter worthwhile.

Salvo 2/4 Rending, maybe changing the range, maybe special ammo. Everyone else finds that fine.
Though I suppose S5 could be a possibility, since that's what the Heavy Bolter has (then it would definitely need to be Salvo 3/6 Rending or similar itself, which wouldn't be a bad idea). Doesn't need to be S6 though.
And the second part is optional, I'd need input from someone reasonable (i.e. NOT YOU) first.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think you can given the price point on terminators.

If the price is the problem, it can be deceased easy-peasy. In fact that's the most simple and obvious solution, more than "ASSAULT CANNONS FOR EVERYONE!".

In conclusion:

I'd actually rather have heavy bolters than assault cannons - less OP, while also having a greater threat range. Now yes, heavy bolters usually stink on ice, but recall what makes scatterbikes stronger than shuricannon bikes: it's as much about the range and the volume as anything else.

So, dial down the volume and the strength, so it's not quite so OP, but dial up the range, and now your Terminators are dangerous most anywhere.

Given that, I think Rending might be overkill (and stealing the thunder of Retributors, though I suppose only Sororitas players would care) - but special issue ammo seems just fine by me. You could always load vengeance rounds and polish off MEQs with gusto: is Gets Hot really especially scary with a 2+ armor save? (Iron Hands termies led by a libby with Prescience can pretend it doesn't even exist).

Now S5 isn't quite as nasty as S6, to be sure. You won't be picking Falcons apart, and yes, their guns will be dishing out some pain in exchange, but come on, you have ways to deal with AV12. You're wounding T3 on 2+, T4 on 3+, which helps quite a bit relative to stormbolters. AP4 isn't totally worthless, either - Necron warriors get quite a bit less annoying when you can get around their armor with enough volume to matter.

jade_angel wrote:
I'd actually rather have heavy bolters than assault cannons - less OP, while also having a greater threat range. Now yes, heavy bolters usually stink on ice, but recall what makes scatterbikes stronger than shuricannon bikes: it's as much about the range and the volume as anything else.

So, dial down the volume and the strength, so it's not quite so OP, but dial up the range, and now your Terminators are dangerous most anywhere.

Given that, I think Rending might be overkill (and stealing the thunder of Retributors, though I suppose only Sororitas players would care) - but special issue ammo seems just fine by me. You could always load vengeance rounds and polish off MEQs with gusto: is Gets Hot really especially scary with a 2+ armor save? (Iron Hands termies led by a libby with Prescience can pretend it doesn't even exist).

Now S5 isn't quite as nasty as S6, to be sure. You won't be picking Falcons apart, and yes, their guns will be dishing out some pain in exchange, but come on, you have ways to deal with AV12. You're wounding T3 on 2+, T4 on 3+, which helps quite a bit relative to stormbolters. AP4 isn't totally worthless, either - Necron warriors get quite a bit less annoying when you can get around their armor with enough volume to matter.

Rending is never overkill, since it is literally praying for 6's.

I see your points about the heavy bolters. And your're right: AP4 is not as ass terrible as it used to be in the game. I still don't think assault cannons are that OP, given other units in the game, but massed up heavy bolters on a terminator platform is something I would at least consider fielding. Heavy bolters can at least shoot back at scatbikes, unlike assault cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"royally screw over the reasonable points of the dicussion! "

How?

" dismissed everyone else's good reasons"

Nobody ever explained why S4 is good. They just gave proposals that left the terminator with a S4 shooting attack. Unacceptable.

"which includes some firepower buffs"

Then you need to actually make changes that buff their firepower, not put bells and whistles on the crappy ass stormbolter.

"Salvo 2/4 Rending, maybe changing the range, maybe special ammo. Everyone else finds that fine. "

Still S4. Won't generate enough wounds for a 35-40 pt model. You might be right that everyone else thinks its fine, but no one has explained WHY S4 shooting is okay on such an expensive model. Because it isn't, as outlined by my sternguard example above.

"If the price is the problem, it can be deceased easy-peasy. In fact that's the most simple and obvious solution,"

They already did that, and the terminator is still unfieldable. As it stands, I wouldn't pay more than 28 pts for a current tac terminator.

Crash, you've wasted more time by telling me not to post than I have with my proposals. You can't stop me from posting on-topic comments that don't insult anyone. Arguably, you've been more insulting by posting all-caps comments. So please quit posting messages that tell me not to post. Mathematically speaking, and based off what units are already in the game, the assault cannon thing is not that crazy. It just isn't.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
I'd actually rather have heavy bolters than assault cannons - less OP, while also having a greater threat range. Now yes, heavy bolters usually stink on ice, but recall what makes scatterbikes stronger than shuricannon bikes: it's as much about the range and the volume as anything else.

So, dial down the volume and the strength, so it's not quite so OP, but dial up the range, and now your Terminators are dangerous most anywhere.

Given that, I think Rending might be overkill (and stealing the thunder of Retributors, though I suppose only Sororitas players would care) - but special issue ammo seems just fine by me. You could always load vengeance rounds and polish off MEQs with gusto: is Gets Hot really especially scary with a 2+ armor save? (Iron Hands termies led by a libby with Prescience can pretend it doesn't even exist).

Now S5 isn't quite as nasty as S6, to be sure. You won't be picking Falcons apart, and yes, their guns will be dishing out some pain in exchange, but come on, you have ways to deal with AV12. You're wounding T3 on 2+, T4 on 3+, which helps quite a bit relative to stormbolters. AP4 isn't totally worthless, either - Necron warriors get quite a bit less annoying when you can get around their armor with enough volume to matter.

Rending is never overkill, since it is literally praying for 6's.

I see your points about the heavy bolters. And your're right: AP4 is not as ass terrible as it used to be in the game. I still don't think assault cannons are that OP, given other units in the game, but massed up heavy bolters on a terminator platform is something I would at least consider fielding. Heavy bolters can at least shoot back at scatbikes, unlike assault cannons.

<snippity>

Well, Rending is praying for 6's, but if you get them, you not only get AP2 - now your S5 gun can glance AV14 and pen AV13 or less (admittedly, those are some long odds, but 15-30 shots gives a fair chance to see it) and you can wound T9-10 on the rare occasions that comes up. So it's pretty strong, actually, at least on things that get good volume of fire. If you mathhammer it out, pseudo-Rending is why shuricannon bikes are actually nastier to MEQ/TEQ than scatterbikes, at least if you take the extra 12" of range out of the equation.

Assault cannons won't be OP relative to scatterbikes - deadlier shooting (S6/AP4/Heavy4/Rending vs S6/AP6/Heavy4) but with shorter range on a slower but debatably more durable platform - but is edging up on it relative to other things. Recall that the general consensus is that scatterbikes are, themselves, OP. But, I think heavy bolters plus special issue ammo, or at least some special issue ammo, are a reasonable compromise.

Maybe profiles as follows:

Kraken bolts: S5 AP4, 48", Pinning (to compensate for the regular ones getting AP4, while these don't get better AP)
Dragonfire bolts: S5 AP4, 36", Ignores Cover
Hellfire bolts: S1 AP4, 36", Poisoned (2+)
Vengeance bolts: S5 AP3, 30", Gets Hot

Then you'd get one of those for free, and any of the others for 1 ppm each. Not all for free, or else why bother with Sternguard?