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2015/07/03 04:19:55
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Meaning was the idea that the Emperor hailed as a deity incorrect. We see in the the novels a cult quickly growing after the incidents on the Murder (I think?) people lick Euphrati and a particular princept sharing a strong moral belief. However was the Emperor indeed right to be hailed as a God?
Included Questions.
Does the Emperor lack the foresight to see that he would be hailed as a God by his actions?
Was Horus acting entirely from the actions of Erebus and the witches on Davin's influence?
Was the Emporer a God? If so why send a atheistic message?
Many questions, please do discuss, as I am of the opinion that the Emperor self-aggrandized himself to be hailed as a God of the human race.
1200 pts of Black Legion and Night Lords
2015/07/03 04:53:54
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
The Emperor wanted atheism to be a thing to weaken the chaos gods. I've read about some theories thar after the chaos gods were weaker, he would proclaim himself to be a god, to gain strength to finish them off, and mess up humanity's mindset about what to believe, not that he was a good father figure or anything of the like.
Irishpeacockz-Blackjack needs a pay raise for being the welcomer to the crusade
Palleus-Write a school essay about Kroot! Pride. Prejudice. And Cannibalsim.
2015/07/03 05:33:17
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Personally I think the Heresy works better from a story telling POV if the Emperor was NOT in fact wanting to become a god. Horus was shown a future where he was forgotten, all his acheivements hidden. where his father was literally worshipped as a god etc. in short, the IoM of modern 40k. in short Horus, attempted to fight a prophecy, only to, as a result, bring it to life. It's classic tragedy. and I think thats exactly what the Heresy should be
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2015/07/04 04:47:14
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
The Emperor never did such a thing. The Cult of the Emperor was underground due to the prohibitions against religious cults during the Great Crusade. It was only after he was made incommunicado and put on the Golden Throne that it began to spread, and only after all of his loyal sons had died or disappeared that there were no longer any bulwarks holding it back. Once that happened it couldn't be stopped. It's made quite obvious in the HH series that the 40k state of the imperium is an irony, the complete opposite of what the Emperor strived for.
Furthermore, the visions of planets given solely to worship of the Emperor as a god and only 9 Primarchs being worshiped alongside him in the visions given to Horus on Davin, are quite blatently self fullfiling prophesies that wouldn't have come to pass if not for the HH in the first place. So there is also the irony for Horus - that he created what he rebelled to stop.
2015/07/04 21:07:59
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
The 'Cult of the Emperor' is a bit of a misnomer, since there were full on wars between the different imperial cults until the Church of the Saviour Emperor won out over all the others (its main rival being the Confederation of Light, with the Lectitio Divinatus dying fairly swiftly).
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2015/07/04 23:20:15
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Nightwalker wrote: Does the Emperor lack the foresight to see that he would be hailed as a God by his actions? Was the Emporer a God? If so why send a atheistic message?
If you annoint yourself a God while similtaioniously removing theist's beliefs it would be counter intuitive to your goals. The majority of humanity will always have the need to belive in something great than themselves, even some of the worlds greatest scientsts believed in God. You don't live 30,000+ years and not know how humanity works. His powers, the miracles he performs, his longevity, unknown origins etc when questioned internally there can only be one conclusion but that conclusion must come from your own revelation and not forced by a bolter. Even if the Emperor explained who he is, where he came from and so on people would still come to the same outcome because he is the closest thing humanity can relate to as a God. The difference between the two is that by him denying his divinity he amplifies said conclusion.
From the background he never saw himself as a God and always knew who and what he was and with his great understanding of the warp as we're lead to believe coupled with the Shaman having knowledge of how the Chaos Gods came into being. With his role as the Emperor and with the above knowledge he couldn't avoid being a God despite his best attempts to prevent it.
Well the Emperor was a suspicious, manipulative, highly psychic warlord that slaughters/converts all the other warlords on earth so he can successfully launch a genocidal war of conquest on everyone that doesn't meet his standards.
So yeah, definitely not worthy of godhood.
0008/07/05 05:55:47
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Bronzefists42 wrote: Well the Emperor was a suspicious, manipulative, highly psychic warlord that slaughters/converts all the other warlords on earth so he can successfully launch a genocidal war of conquest on everyone that doesn't meet his standards.
So yeah, definitely not worthy of godhood.
Have you read many religious texts, or are familiar with most ancient myths / legends / tales about god - christianity included?
Gods tend to total fething tools, and often times bat gak crazy. "God" included.
Bronzefists42 wrote: Well the Emperor was a suspicious, manipulative, highly psychic warlord that slaughters/converts all the other warlords on earth so he can successfully launch a genocidal war of conquest on everyone that doesn't meet his standards.
So yeah, definitely not worthy of godhood.
Have you read many religious texts, or are familiar with most ancient myths / legends / tales about god - christianity included?
Gods tend to total fething tools, and often times bat gak crazy. "God" included.
Lol yeah, that seems like he would be completely worthy of godhood. Moreso in fact.
Yewah destroyed cities that did not follow his ways (sodom and Gomorrah), flooded and drowned the majority of all living things, sent plagues to kill most of a nation (egypt) killed hundreds of thousands who didn't follow his ways or worshipped other gods and allows anyone who has not accepted him and been baptized (babies included) to burn in eternal hellfire.
Apparently.
The Emperor took this to a galactic scale. He definitely deserves godhood if we are using current societies definitions.
2015/07/05 12:37:22
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
BrianDavion wrote: Personally I think the Heresy works better from a story telling POV if the Emperor was NOT in fact wanting to become a god. Horus was shown a future where he was forgotten, all his acheivements hidden. where his father was literally worshipped as a god etc. in short, the IoM of modern 40k. in short Horus, attempted to fight a prophecy, only to, as a result, bring it to life. It's classic tragedy. and I think thats exactly what the Heresy should be
Exalted!
And...spot on!
2015/07/05 17:57:55
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
I'm saying he really shouldn't be worshiped as one for the reasons in my previous post.
And we're saying that Gods, throughout history, have never been noble and righteous figures with the inarguable good of the masses and pure-hearted motivations which will see no one hurt (or the smallest portion possible hurt).
Pagon gods were pricks. Mythological gods and goddesses were randy sister / brother fethers who had little in the way of morals. The big "God" supposedly has done some pretty horrifying things for gaks and giggles in the past, and has little problems with slaughtering all kinds of innocents just because one person annoyed him - even when he intentionally made that person go against his will.
Before this escalates, I want to say that I'm a Christian. So I'm not here to bash on religion and say it's for tools. I'm merely saying that there has never been a "Peace and love, all the time, every time, no war!" god.. Save probably Buddha.
And Buddha isn't really a god. He's venerated as an exemplar, a figure worthy of respect, one to emulate and follow the teachings of... and there's a bit of a measure of Shintoism in his veneration, which is "ancestor worship"... but Buddhism doesn't really fit with religions as they are normally practiced in the West.
After all, we can chart Buddha's life pretty explicitly. None of this "it is believed he", no, it is "it is known that he was here and did this and said this".
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/07/10 10:59:56
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Bronzefists42 wrote: Well the Emperor was a suspicious, manipulative, highly psychic warlord that slaughters/converts all the other warlords on earth so he can successfully launch a genocidal war of conquest on everyone that doesn't meet his standards.
So yeah, definitely not worthy of godhood.
Have you read many religious texts, or are familiar with most ancient myths / legends / tales about god - christianity included?
Gods tend to total fething tools, and often times bat gak crazy. "God" included.
Lol yeah, that seems like he would be completely worthy of godhood. Moreso in fact.
Yewah destroyed cities that did not follow his ways (sodom and Gomorrah), flooded and drowned the majority of all living things, sent plagues to kill most of a nation (egypt) killed hundreds of thousands who didn't follow his ways or worshipped other gods and allows anyone who has not accepted him and been baptized (babies included) to burn in eternal hellfire.
Apparently.
The Emperor took this to a galactic scale. He definitely deserves godhood if we are using current societies definitions.
Gods usualy do not end as drooling vegetables.
2015/07/10 13:30:11
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
2015/07/30 06:36:26
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Nightwalker wrote: Does the Emperor lack the foresight to see that he would be hailed as a God by his actions? Was the Emporer a God? If so why send a atheistic message?
If you annoint yourself a God while similtaioniously removing theist's beliefs it would be counter intuitive to your goals. The majority of humanity will always have the need to belive in something great than themselves, even some of the worlds greatest scientsts believed in God. You don't live 30,000+ years and not know how humanity works. His powers, the miracles he performs, his longevity, unknown origins etc when questioned internally there can only be one conclusion but that conclusion must come from your own revelation and not forced by a bolter. Even if the Emperor explained who he is, where he came from and so on people would still come to the same outcome because he is the closest thing humanity can relate to as a God. The difference between the two is that by him denying his divinity he amplifies said conclusion.
From the background he never saw himself as a God and always knew who and what he was and with his great understanding of the warp as we're lead to believe coupled with the Shaman having knowledge of how the Chaos Gods came into being. With his role as the Emperor and with the above knowledge he couldn't avoid being a God despite his best attempts to prevent it.
My 2 pence.
However does this not further state a condescending nature of the emperor to know full well he would be hailed as a God and yet outlawing religion with sword in hand and forcing it as such. He knows full well that, in his current form would counter his law against theism. Why not present himself differently? Why outlaw it at all? What he did seemed to have led to pointless bloodshed in either case.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poly Ranger wrote: The Emperor never did such a thing. The Cult of the Emperor was underground due to the prohibitions against religious cults during the Great Crusade. It was only after he was made incommunicado and put on the Golden Throne that it began to spread, and only after all of his loyal sons had died or disappeared that there were no longer any bulwarks holding it back. Once that happened it couldn't be stopped. It's made quite obvious in the HH series that the 40k state of the imperium is an irony, the complete opposite of what the Emperor strived for.
Furthermore, the visions of planets given solely to worship of the Emperor as a god and only 9 Primarchs being worshiped alongside him in the visions given to Horus on Davin, are quite blatently self fullfiling prophesies that wouldn't have come to pass if not for the HH in the first place. So there is also the irony for Horus - that he created what he rebelled to stop.
So then would this not show that the modern sense of CSM be correct? Well the ones that argue the ideology that they fight to stop religion. Which was the idea preached to them from the Emperor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 06:38:59
1200 pts of Black Legion and Night Lords
2015/07/30 07:30:18
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
From the course of the HH books, you see that mainly the Emperor was willing to do whatever it took to achieve absolute power for himself.
He used the powers of the Warp in making the primarchs. This is not just said by Igethel in First Heretic, but also by Eldrad in Fulgrim and I consider the ladder at least a worthy source. When the Warp was no longer useful, the Emperor sought to destroy it via his Webway Project and by forcibly spreading militant atheism to eliminate worship of the Chaos Gods.
Is it possible the Chaos Gods were telling the truth and the Emperor planned the Primarchs when he was done with them and elevate himself to Godhood? Well, he did wipe out the Thunder Warriors and replace them with Astartes, then lied about their ultimate fate as a coverup.
The Last Church is probably the best look at who the Emperor really is. It's no coincidence it's the earliest set HH tale.
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2015/07/30 17:53:13
Subject: Re:Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Horus eventually went too far, signing a literal faustian bargain. But the seeds of his discontent were sown by the Emperor, who is the embodiment of hubris.
2015/07/31 05:38:30
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
It is all Tzeentch's play. Emperor is not all-knowing and Tzeentch can hide things from psykers, even from emperor or Eldrad (others daemons can do that too).
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers.
2015/07/31 18:54:43
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Harriticus wrote: From the course of the HH books, you see that mainly the Emperor was willing to do whatever it took to achieve absolute power for himself.
He used the powers of the Warp in making the primarchs. This is not just said by Igethel in First Heretic, but also by Eldrad in Fulgrim and I consider the ladder at least a worthy source. When the Warp was no longer useful, the Emperor sought to destroy it via his Webway Project and by forcibly spreading militant atheism to eliminate worship of the Chaos Gods.
Is it possible the Chaos Gods were telling the truth and the Emperor planned the Primarchs when he was done with them and elevate himself to Godhood? Well, he did wipe out the Thunder Warriors and replace them with Astartes, then lied about their ultimate fate as a coverup.
The Last Church is probably the best look at who the Emperor really is. It's no coincidence it's the earliest set HH tale.
Then that would make Horus' rebellion wholly legitimate, perhaps not in the perverse sense in the 40th millennium.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DanielBeaver wrote: Horus eventually went too far, signing a literal faustian bargain. But the seeds of his discontent were sown by the Emperor, who is the embodiment of hubris.
Implying that it is faustian bargain seems like a little bit of a stretch due to the fact that he did not abandon his ideology with the action, he was if anything reinforcing a logical and scientific society that was initially promoted by the emperor. Though the second idea of the emperor as an embodiment of hubris is certainly interesting as it is almost makes him seem like a tragic character. Even through all his lying and ambition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: The Emperor did not actually outlaw all religion...
He suborned it.
"Thou shalt have no other god but me."
Is that statement not a contradiction? That he did not outlaw it then be suborned it?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/08/02 20:47:03
1200 pts of Black Legion and Night Lords
2015/08/02 21:19:45
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
I'm saying he really shouldn't be worshiped as one for the reasons in my previous post.
And we're saying that Gods, throughout history, have never been noble and righteous figures with the inarguable good of the masses and pure-hearted motivations which will see no one hurt (or the smallest portion possible hurt).
Pagon gods were pricks. Mythological gods and goddesses were randy sister / brother fethers who had little in the way of morals. The big "God" supposedly has done some pretty horrifying things for gaks and giggles in the past, and has little problems with slaughtering all kinds of innocents just because one person annoyed him - even when he intentionally made that person go against his will.
Before this escalates, I want to say that I'm a Christian. So I'm not here to bash on religion and say it's for tools. I'm merely saying that there has never been a "Peace and love, all the time, every time, no war!" god.. Save probably Buddha.
for a "Christian" you say a lot of wrong stuff about God. Despite the bizarre claims of many regarding the old testament God of the Bible is never capricious, He is always demonstrably loving, (Genesis 18:24-33) is always wholly consistent. in fact the Bible says "He is good" over and over again hundreds of times AND backs it up time and time again and Jesus was FAR more demanding than any tenant of Buddhism. (see Matthew 5:21-48 if you doubt that)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/02 22:46:12
2015/08/02 22:59:55
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Ehm, ask Egypt, Sodom & Gammorah, or any of the other civilizations in the Middle East if God was "always loving". Especially in the latter case, it is supposed that He allowed the Jewish tribes to put them to the sword. Even gave them a magic box to make it that much easier.
This besides the fact that He (also supposedly) drowned the world (save, like, ten people) with a rainstorm.
So... no, not really.
Is that statement not a contradiction? That he did not outlaw it then be suborned it?
Not at all. The Emperor simply forbade the worship of other gods. Not him. The various cults venerating him, on Terra, were millions-to-billions strong, and this was during his time walking around there. Not some underground cells of like 20 guys.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/08/02 23:29:56
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Nightwalker wrote: Does the Emperor lack the foresight to see that he would be hailed as a God by his actions? Was the Emporer a God? If so why send a atheistic message?
If you annoint yourself a God while similtaioniously removing theist's beliefs it would be counter intuitive to your goals. The majority of humanity will always have the need to belive in something great than themselves, even some of the worlds greatest scientsts believed in God. You don't live 30,000+ years and not know how humanity works. His powers, the miracles he performs, his longevity, unknown origins etc when questioned internally there can only be one conclusion but that conclusion must come from your own revelation and not forced by a bolter. Even if the Emperor explained who he is, where he came from and so on people would still come to the same outcome because he is the closest thing humanity can relate to as a God. The difference between the two is that by him denying his divinity he amplifies said conclusion.
From the background he never saw himself as a God and always knew who and what he was and with his great understanding of the warp as we're lead to believe coupled with the Shaman having knowledge of how the Chaos Gods came into being. With his role as the Emperor and with the above knowledge he couldn't avoid being a God despite his best attempts to prevent it.
My 2 pence.
However does this not further state a condescending nature of the emperor to know full well he would be hailed as a God and yet outlawing religion with sword in hand and forcing it as such. He knows full well that, in his current form would counter his law against theism. Why not present himself differently? Why outlaw it at all? What he did seemed to have led to pointless bloodshed in either case.
If you ensure humanity doesn't believe in the various gods. Naturally their need to believe in something and with there being nothing else to worship, combined with his influence, would be redirected to him. If you deny your own divinity it only furthers it in the eyes of others. Therefore instructing laws to forbid any form of worship augments this.
He spent his life trying to change the very course of humanity. Unfortunately after 30,000+ years and with time not on his side he came to the conclusion he can't change humanity, only guide it by force in a direction he believes will ensure it's very survival. To become the Emperor, something he avoided for so long.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/02 23:38:50
Psienesis wrote: And Buddha isn't really a god. He's venerated as an exemplar, a figure worthy of respect, one to emulate and follow the teachings of... and there's a bit of a measure of Shintoism in his veneration, which is "ancestor worship"... but Buddhism doesn't really fit with religions as they are normally practiced in the West.
After all, we can chart Buddha's life pretty explicitly. None of this "it is believed he", no, it is "it is known that he was here and did this and said this".
Some sects of Buddhism worship Buddha as a God, some don't. It really depends upon where you are in the world.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In response to OP:
The Emperor purposefully failed to suppress his worship on Terra, and he impersonated the Machine God in order to acquire the AdMech's support.
Something to remember: The Emperor had a near-perfect understanding of the creation of the Gods of the Warp due to the fact that he has tens of thousands of years (at least, likely far more) of the Shamans knowledge regarding the creation of the Chaos Gods and their nature.
If he was being worshiped, he would know what that would cause, and, therefore, it is my personal belief that he engineered the Heresy so that he could Ascend, and take advantage of the worship energies. I just don't think that he anticipated Lorgar being able to turn Horus against him, hence the dismal state of the Imperium.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/05 19:09:59
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2015/08/05 21:07:35
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Should be noted Vengeful Spirit has retconned the Emprah's history a bit. This is now the "official" history from the BL.
He was a perpetual, but normal person, dating back to at least ancient times (the great flood of the bible is mentioned in one scene). During the dawn of the Dark Age of Technology he went to planet Molech with other perpetuals in a primitive NASA-style rocket and went into a cave that was a gateway to the Warp. He made a bargain with the Chaos Gods and when he came out he had the powers of a god. He later failed to uphold his end of the bargain though, and became known as the anathema.
This isn't a lie concocted by Erebus/a daemon either, it's said by Alivia Sureka who was a perpetual who witnessed it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/05 21:10:40
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2015/08/05 21:50:18
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Harriticus wrote: Should be noted Vengeful Spirit has retconned the Emprah's history a bit. This is now the "official" history from the BL.
He was a perpetual, but normal person, dating back to at least ancient times (the great flood of the bible is mentioned in one scene). During the dawn of the Dark Age of Technology he went to planet Molech with other perpetuals in a primitive NASA-style rocket and went into a cave that was a gateway to the Warp. He made a bargain with the Chaos Gods and when he came out he had the powers of a god. He later failed to uphold his end of the bargain though, and became known as the anathema.
This isn't a lie concocted by Erebus/a daemon either, it's said by Alivia Sureka who was a perpetual who witnessed it.
Meh, my story is backed up by more books than yours is, so I'm stickin' to the shaman story. Because multiple codices > one novel. And a BL novel, at that.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
