WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar

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**Spetulhu**

A tank is a tank, even if it's old and outdated by now. I'm pretty sure you could still find ammo for the main gun - old and stored for a long time, but it might still work well enough. And the 2 MG34s on it (if still there) use regular Mauser rifle ammo that's produced to this day.

At the very least the owner would need some collector's permit to own the guns. And if owning a fully armored collector's tank is impossible in Germany, well, not much to do about it. We can own such things here (though a functional cannon is IIRC not allowed, or you need to fill in some very special papers).

**BaronIveagh**

Spetulhu wrote:
A tank is a tank, even if it's old and outdated by now. I'm pretty sure you could still find ammo for the main gun - old and stored for a long time, but it might still work well enough. And the 2 MG34s on it (if still there) use regular Mauser rifle ammo that's produced to this day.

At the very least the owner would need some collector's permit to own the guns. And if owning a fully armored collector's tank is impossible in Germany, well, not much to do about it. We can own such things here (though a functional cannon is IIRC not allowed, or you need to fill in some very special papers).

Actually it's not as hard as that. I recently saw some live Finnish Chaffees on the market.

As far as what most countries do, owning a (live) tank is legal in a surprising number of places, not due to a lack of concern, but more of a 'who the hell would have one' sort of approach.

Also, it's not just the guns that are illegal. In Germany, a tanks armor is also illegal. In the US you can pretty much just wreck the gun, and it's now legal. In Germany in particular, it's very severe and extensive. I wanted to link a photo from the Littlefield collection of a Jagdpanzer he was trying to restore that would give you an idea of how bad the cutting can be, but it won't link for some reason.

**Vaktathi**

paulson games wrote:
Too bad he didn't fire it up and fight the police, that would have been epic.

Oh I remember when this happened, I remember driving by a few days later and seeing the smashed highway divider still there. I was but a wee lad then...

**Da krimson barun**

BaronIveagh wrote:
LordofHats wrote:

This, while not as cool as a tank, is also quite a rare piece of memorabilia. In all likely hood it will be acquired by someone.

Not likely. Unless a Museum steps in, it will be scrapped. Why do you think it's rare? I mean, hell, Germany has been digging up Nazi dead bodies to destroy. What do you think they're gonna do with THIS?

Worse, you can't even bribe them with a high profile case like this. They were gonna scrap a Jagdtiger they found in a barn a few years ago, but someone paid 25 million in bribes to get it smuggled out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:
There are. However;
-There are no laws against owning the vehicles in the US (the ammunition however and firing mechanisms, may be illegal or require dismantling)

Also, if you cross state lines with yours, you have to inform BATF in advance. Some states allow you to own the live gun, others are more restrictive.

Can you link to anything about the jadgtiger? i cant find anything.

**Polonius**

One thing to keep in mind about Germany seizing this guys tank: how did he acquire it in the first place? It's not like Germany had a war surplus sale on tanks after the war. It was probably illegally sold. The true owner, in 1945 as well as today, is probably the German Military.

**BaronIveagh**

Polonius wrote:
One thing to keep in mind about Germany seizing this guys tank: how did he acquire it in the first place? It's not like Germany had a war surplus sale on tanks after the war. It was probably illegally sold. The true owner, in 1945 as well as today, is probably the German Military.

Incorrect. The German military was disposessed of all property and ownership rights by the allies following the war and their property was disposed of in various ways. Effectively, this means that the German military has no claim on it. He may have bought it from a property owner where it had been left disabled.

I couldn't find the Jagdtiger article now either and am unsure where I read it. As far as PZ4s not being rare, there are 38 remaining PZ4s, that are intact, in the world.

**Jihadin**

Believe there is a serious lack of authentic parts for a Panther

**sebster**

Daemonhammer wrote:
I find it rather disturbing and sad that they just took things off him that are worth at least a million euro, probably more depending on their state.

Umm, it's pretty unlikely he acquired the tank through legal means in the first place.

**BaronIveagh**

sebster wrote:

Umm, it's pretty unlikely he acquired the tank through legal means in the first place.

I'm kind of curious where you think you'd get a Panther in running order illegally? It's not like a painting you can just toss in the back of a car. I mean, hell, I know where you can get some tanks, including ones that fell off a Soviet truck, but Panthers are a whole nother animal. The only place I can think of that you can pick those up in any condition illegally is Turkey, and those are in pretty rough shape, and I can't imagine smuggling one through customs into Germany. You can legally get them in Eastern Europe though, if you have the right contacts and get a lucky find.

Jihadin wrote:
Believe there is a serious lack of authentic parts for a Panther

True, but there are guys who will make you some. You can also order parts from Skoda, as long as they're for 'bulldozers'. Skoda works didn't do a lot of retooling until the 50's and some of their bulldozers used the same parts as their tanks, so it depends on what you have, and what you need.

**LordofHats**

BaronIveagh wrote:

I'm kind of curious where you think you'd get a Panther in running order illegally?

The question is where did the Panther come from in the first place, and the probable answer is "he had it so he kept it" which is a rather loose way of defining rightful owner...

Seems like the guy was just a hoarder who managed to grab up some gear at the end of the war and stashed it all in his basement.

**BaronIveagh**

LordofHats wrote:

The question is where did the Panther come from in the first place, and the probable answer is "he had it so he kept it" which is a rather loose way of defining rightful owner...

Seems like the guy was just a hoarder who managed to grab up some gear at the end of the war and stashed it all in his basement.

That's some hoarding. Hell, that's some basement!

Panthers were abandoned all over Europe due to either simply running out of gas and mechanical failure. (Most common being a broken transmission, the Maybachs in them were designed for a lighter tank) It's been estimated in the past that the Germans abandoned more tanks than were actually knocked out by the allies in the West.

and battlefield cleanup got palmed off on contractors who sold tanks for pennies on the dollar, or exported them to other countries (Turkey and Syria got a lot of German tanks).

**Avatar 720**

LordofHats wrote:
The question is where did the Panther come from in the first place

It attacked him as he was walking through long grass and he caught it.

**Jihadin**

I had to look it up

After 1945, even German police officers were initially not allowed to carry firearms. Private ownership of firearms was not allowed until after 1956. The legal status returned essentially to that of the Law on Firearms and Ammunition of 1928. The regulation of the matter was thoroughly revised in 1972, when the new restrictive Federal Weapons Act (Bundeswaffengesetz) became effective, partly as a reaction to the terror of the Red Army Faction.[7] It was developed in the Federal Weapons Act of 2002 and by amendments in 2008 and 2009. These laws were the result of a chain of school shootings in Erfurt, Emsdetten and Winnenden. They led to a public debate, in which blame was attributed to various elements of youth culture and society, including violent computer games, television programs, rock music and private gun ownership.[8]

The Weapons Act of 2002 increased the age requirements for licensed hunters and competition shooters. It also introduced the requirement of a psychological evaluation for persons under the age of 25 to fulfill the requirement of personal adequacy for large-bore firearms.

The first amendment became effective on April 1, 2008. The intention of that amendment was to ban certain kinds of weapons like airsoft-guns, tasers, so-called Anscheinswaffen (dummy-guns) and knives with blades longer than 12 cm from public places. They may still be carried in sealed wrappings and for professional or ceremonial purposes. Their use on private premises and in non-public places like gun clubs is not restricted.

The second amendment became effective on July 17, 2009. It introduced routine verifications of safe firearms storage by local firearms control offices at the homes of licensees. It also tightened the conditions for continuous necessity. A constitutional complaint (Verfassungsbeschwerde) was launched against the law, alleging a violation of the inviolability of the home, guaranteed by Art. 13 of the German constitution.[9]

The weapons law does not apply to military use of weapons within the Bundeswehr or to the police. The identity card of German troops and police officers contains a term allowing them to carry weapons. Nonetheless – within the military – issuance of guns and especially ammunition is very strictly controlled.

In Germany, the possession of any firearm with a muzzle energy exceeding 7.5 Joule (~5.5 ft·lbf; for comparison, a .22LR cartridge has a muzzle energy of 159 J) requires a valid firearms ownership license for any particular weapon. The current Federal Weapons Act adopts a two-tiered approach to firearms licensing.

Was the firing pins still in the breeches of the 88mm Flak and the main gun of the Panther?

**sebster**

BaronIveagh wrote:
I'm kind of curious where you think you'd get a Panther in running order illegally? It's not like a painting you can just toss in the back of a car.

Umm, my first guess would be that you'd get one in the wake of Nazi collapse, in 1945.

**chromedog**

It's not like it was a SECRET in that town.

30 years ago, during their worst blizzard season, he'd been seen trundling around town in it. EVERYONE in town - from the mayor down - knew about it.

He'd been searched for some missing stolen WW2 artworks earlier in the year, too.

**Ensis Ferrae**

It's too bad he wasn't living in America, where we have that oft said saying, "possession is 9/10ths of the law"

Also... anyone else kind of reminded of this??

**Howard A Treesong**

sebster wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
I'm kind of curious where you think you'd get a Panther in running order illegally? It's not like a painting you can just toss in the back of a car.

Umm, my first guess would be that you'd get one in the wake of Nazi collapse, in 1945.

A few were built after the war though, one of those in Bovington was built in 1946 or something. Some panthers were in use into the 50s until scrapped.

**sebster**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
A few were built after the war though, one of those in Bovington was built in 1946 or something. Some panthers were in use into the 50s until scrapped.

Is anyone claiming this is one of those Panthers? Is the guy who kept it in his basement claiming that?

**BaronIveagh**

Jihadin wrote:

Was the firing pins still in the breeches of the 88mm Flak and the main gun of the Panther?

You don't demill ordinance that way now. Usually a cut or hole is made in the high pressure area of the breech or the receiver is cut off. Now, thirty years ago, yes, they'd have pulled the firing pins.

but, and again I point this out, the fact that it's not chopped into swiss cheese is also illegal. Look up German laws on military grade armor and requirements for demilling. It's god damn heart breaking. there's a reason a lot of German WW2 collectors complain that they can't own any armored vehicles and leave them intact.

Even if the gun is demilled, they're gonna nail him on an armor charge.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sebster wrote:

Is anyone claiming this is one of those Panthers? Is the guy who kept it in his basement claiming that?

Since we have not heard anything more, it's hard to say. Again, my money is he bought it post war from a contractor charged with cleaning up battlefields. It was pretty common.

Edit: according to his attorney, the weapons were rendered non functional. Further, he had gotten around the armor issue by removing the Panther's treads, effectively making the armor law technically inapplicable. German prosecutors are examining if the collection violates the instruments of war law, so apparently they're legitimately his. Apparently the German government signed off on them being demilled in 2005, so what this is about is a good question at this point,

**Howard A Treesong**

sebster wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
A few were built after the war though, one of those in Bovington was built in 1946 or something. Some panthers were in use into the 50s until scrapped.

Is anyone claiming this is one of those Panthers? Is the guy who kept it in his basement claiming that?

I've been reading a few threads about this vehicle and one had someone link to a page listing surviving Panthers and claimed that one described as being having been built after the war and in private hands was supposedly this one. But I can't speak to the accuracy of this.

**LordofHats**

Avatar 720 wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
The question is where did the Panther come from in the first place

It attacked him as he was walking through long grass and he caught it.

So that's what he used his master ball on...

**BaronIveagh**

LordofHats wrote:

So that's what he used his master ball on...

Kliment Voroshilov Two, I choose you!

**Witzkatz**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
sebster wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
A few were built after the war though, one of those in Bovington was built in 1946 or something. Some panthers were in use into the 50s until scrapped.

Is anyone claiming this is one of those Panthers? Is the guy who kept it in his basement claiming that?

I've been reading a few threads about this vehicle and one had someone link to a page listing surviving Panthers and claimed that one described as being having been built after the war and in private hands was supposedly this one. But I can't speak to the accuracy of this.

I highly doubt this one was built after the war. The turret is clearly the early model, looks almost like an Ausf. A - they were up to Ausf. F by the end of the war, with a sleeker turret and a totally different gun mantle. Why would the go back to inferior designs?

**LordofHats**

Only a handful of Panthers were produced after the war (I don't know what design variant they were, but probably safe to assume it was a later model), and all of those vehicles ended up getting shipped to the UK because the British ordered and funded their production.

Nah. if some guy had one he only got it from two places; the German Army, or a post war military force, as the USSR did send a few Panthers around to the Soviet Bloc states in the late 40s.

**Witzkatz**

I actually have to kind of retract my statement, there was an Ausf. G late model that used the early turret design for whatever reason.

Ausführung A:

Ausführung F (which I thought was the latest):

Ausführung G:

So it might indeed be a late model...though the commander's hatch from the Ausf G in the museum looks slightly different than that on our cellar tank, I think?

**BaronIveagh**

Witzkatz wrote:
So it might indeed be a late model...though the commander's hatch from the Ausf G in the museum looks slightly different than that on our cellar tank, I think?

It's the same, it just has the machinegun ring mounted.

**sebster**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Since we have not heard anything more, it's hard to say. Again, my money is he bought it post war from a contractor charged with cleaning up battlefields. It was pretty common.

Even if he'd purchased it from a contractor in that circumstance, would it be a legal purchase? Historical groups I could understand, but private sales? And even if such purchases might be legal, I find it very hard to believe that they wouldn't have to registered with the government.

**Spetulhu**

sebster wrote:
[Even if he'd purchased it from a contractor in that circumstance, would it be a legal purchase?

If salvaged tanks were to be scrapped as metal the contractor would just have falsified the records for the day, pocketed the money and turned a blind eye to how the man was going about getting the thing home. No, it would probably not be seen as a legal purchase if Germans weren't allowed to have such things.

**Howard A Treesong**

Witzkatz wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
sebster wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
A few were built after the war though, one of those in Bovington was built in 1946 or something. Some panthers were in use into the 50s until scrapped.

Is anyone claiming this is one of those Panthers? Is the guy who kept it in his basement claiming that?

I've been reading a few threads about this vehicle and one had someone link to a page listing surviving Panthers and claimed that one described as being having been built after the war and in private hands was supposedly this one. But I can't speak to the accuracy of this.

I highly doubt this one was built after the war. The turret is clearly the early model, looks almost like an Ausf. A - they were up to Ausf. F by the end of the war, with a sleeker turret and a totally different gun mantle. Why would the go back to inferior designs?

I thought it's a Panther G hull and turret from what I saw in photos.

**BaronIveagh**

sebster wrote:

Even if he'd purchased it from a contractor in that circumstance, would it be a legal purchase? Historical groups I could understand, but private sales? And even if such purchases might be legal, I find it very hard to believe that they wouldn't have to registered with the government.

As long as the weapons are inactive it's totally legit. And, supposedly, he went and had his ownership verified in 2005 when the German government signed off on them being fully demilled.