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Welp, Chaos Knights are out. We also got a unique, but slightly more expensive knight, "Kytan"

What are your impressions?

Where do you see this release fitting into chaos armies?






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the images, respectively

If they get published in a book as-is (they're currently marked experimental so no events would allow them), those Chaos Knights will change the competitive game for Daemon players. The special Khorne one is too expensive and doesn't do enough, but the normal ones are going to be insane.

A bunch of us were already finding ways to shoehorn in Insensate Rage Bloodthirsters because we needed some kind of access to D so badly, to at least attempt to counter other people's deathstars and superheavies.

A Chaos Knight of Khorne will be better than an Insensate Rage BT in pretty much every conceivable way--finding the 150 extra points to fit it will be a given. Being included in a Daemon army (and containing the Daemon special rule) opens up a metric ton of opportunities that normal Knights don't have. First and foremost being the Grimoire leading to 2+ Ion Shields (and 3+ on all other facings, including in combat, and 2+ if a Cursed Earth is nearby) and guaranteed access to Invisibility via Be'lakor.

So you're talking about a ~425 point Knight with invul saves on all sides at all times, re-rollable Stomps, +D3 charge attacks, and the capability to power up to essentially insane defensive abilities whenever necessary.

And I guess also a Dirge Caster because why not?

Seems just like a normal knight with an invul save.

It should help chaos in a few ways, in that it will work a bit better in combat against certain things like wraiths and other things that chaos would struggle to kill, such as thunderwolves.

Does Foe-reaper mean you can't fail to wound against Montrous/Gargantuan? the 5+ to get the insta-kill is crazy enough, but not being able to roll a 1 seems a bit over the top. Am I misreading this (still pretty new to 40k, so I might be!)?

the Kytan kinda strikes me as a Khorneish Knight Warden. little more expensive, but I imagine it'll be used more or less the same

Another useful tactic is to take the Legacy of Ruin (Imperial Armour Vol. XIII) "1st war for Armageddon" and give the knight the Daemon of Khorne upgrade...
That way the Knight has a 4++ invuln on all sides and in CC, and can be grimoired to a 2++ invuln.

That's the first idea that comes to my mind. Other than the ability to be grimoired, the knights aren't that different than other knights. But I think the knight will be a great addition to a very heavy CC army. Normally the knight has always been an addition to a non-cc oriented army,

Most Imperial armies aren't CC oriented, and the ones that are (BA, SW) don't have the combat prowess of chaos armies, particularly daemons. However, daemons and CSM don't really have any heavy hitters, but can deal with mass light infanty and heavy infantry. So the addition of the heavy hitter knight could make a big difference, especially for fast moving armies like dogspam, or screamerstar

It'll be interesting to see what the knight can do for chaos that is different than the imperium

I'm planning to run a straight Daemonkin army with the Kytan as an anchor. Belakor is way too many points invested in two units.

I think the chaos knight is pretty good.

Quite expensive, but also pretty great IMHO, and looks like a not butt-ugly lord of skulls with legs. It doesn't have the ion shield but it does have a 5+ invuln on all facings. I would bring it all the time just cause its cool.

otherwise just seems like a better Imp. knight honestly.

happy wargaming,

-Mikey

Might try using my Anggrath model as that new Khorne Knight - cuz he just doesn't cut the mustard at 888 points

What about something like this:

Fateweaver
Nurgle Herald: ML2, FNP Locus, Grimoire
Nurgle Herald: ML2, Greater

10x Horrors
10x Horrors

6x Plague Drones w/ venom sting

Daemon Knight of Khorne

Be'lakor

10x Cultist

1850

Without the Carapace Weapons or the Gatling Gun or the Gauntlet, Chaos is again a step behind Loyalist for more points, and for zero legitimate reason. And where are the Slanneshi Tendril arms?? So much potential missed. Again.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Without the Carapace Weapons or the Gatling Gun or the Gauntlet, Chaos is again a step behind Loyalist for more points, and for zero legitimate reason. And where are the Slanneshi Tendril arms?? So much potential missed. Again.

Being able to give a superheavy walker the Daemon special rule more than makes up for every shortcoming you j

ust listed. The carapace option for Emprah Knights are meh as is the gauntlet. They could have fleshed out the rules for each Mark a little better i agree, especially considering the Khorne variant is clearly the best and also the cheapest.

But who cares? YOU CAN MAKE THEM DAEMONS. That allows for things like grimoire, cursed earth and so many other psychic powers to efficiently turn your knight into an unstoppable killing machine.

If/when these rules get the official sanction they will seriously change up how people play Daemons competitively.

I like how Kytan just looks like one of those lord of skulls to knight conversions you see around the net.

Also, it's worth noting that for everyone except Tzeentch, they count as daemons of that alignment.

Nurgle and Slaanesh I can see becoming popular for this. A shrouded SHW isn't a bad thing haha.

Renegades count as CSM for allied chart purposes. Does this mean that my renegades can take a Knight without allying in CSM or Daemons?

Feth more Khorne Crap.



Where's my gorram Slaaneshi Questors and Subjugators etc? Where'd THESE upstart Chaos Knights come from?

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Feth more Khorne Crap.



Where's my gorram Slaaneshi Questors and Subjugators etc? Where'd THESE upstart Chaos Knights come from?

Exactly, Slaanesh would have a sleeker faster looking knight thing too.

 Robisagg wrote:
Also, it's worth noting that for everyone except Tzeentch, they count as daemons of that alignment.

Nurgle and Slaanesh I can see becoming popular for this. A shrouded SHW isn't a bad thing haha.

Sadly not. They are a daemon aligned with Nurgle/Slaanesh but they don't have the Daemon of Nurgle/Slaanesh rule (i.e. no shrouded or increased run move). Daemon Knight of, Like Daemon Titan of, is a distinct rule from Daemon of.

They're still devastating. The +1 versus other superheavies, combined with their invulnerable save, means they should eat loyalist knights for breakfast in a fair fight, and theb Kytan's initiative 5 makes it even scarier.

We won't be able to give any legacies to any with a mark either due to the restriction against daemons/daemon engines/daemonic possession etc being able to take legacies.

Poly Ranger wrote:
We won't be able to give any legacies to any with a mark either due to the restriction against daemons/daemon engines/daemonic possession etc being able to take legacies.

The actual rule for purchasing legacies is

"Daemon Engines (including Defilers, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Heldrakes, Lord of Skulls, Blood Slaughters, Brass Scorpions, etc) as well as any vehicle with the Daemonic Possession vehicle upgrade or Daemonic Resiliance special rule may not take Legacies of Ruin."

Neither the Kytan nor the Knight have the Daemonic Posession or Daemonic Resiliance special rule. However, the Kytan literally has "Daemon Engine" in its name... So I think you would have a hard time convincing any sane person that the Kytan can take legacies. But the knight on the other hand can without a doubt take legacies because it is not a daemon engine, nor is it able to purchase either the Daemonic Possession nor Daemonic Resiliance special rule, even if you take marks.

So yes, the knight can take them, but the Kytan probably can't due to it's name including the words "Daemon Engine" and the specific restriction on Daemon Engines not being able to take Legacies of Ruin


BUT GUYS IF YOU TAKE A KHORNE KNIGHT THERE IS LITERALLY NO REASON NOT TO BUY THE LEGACY OF RUIN THAT IS 35 POINTS AND GIVES THE KNIGHT AND ALL DAEMON OF KHORNE +1 INVULN WITHIN 6". JUST BUY IT

You make a good point.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
We won't be able to give any legacies to any with a mark either due to the restriction against daemons/daemon engines/daemonic possession etc being able to take legacies.

The actual rule for purchasing legacies is

"Daemon Engines (including Defilers, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Heldrakes, Lord of Skulls, Blood Slaughters, Brass Scorpions, etc) as well as any vehicle with the Daemonic Possession vehicle upgrade or Daemonic Resiliance special rule may not take Legacies of Ruin."

Neither the Kytan nor the Knight have the Daemonic Posession or Daemonic Resiliance special rule. However, the Kytan literally has "Daemon Engine" in its name... So I think you would have a hard time convincing any sane person that the Kytan can take legacies. But the knight on the other hand can without a doubt take legacies because it is not a daemon engine, nor is it able to purchase either the Daemonic Possession nor Daemonic Resiliance special rule, even if you take marks.

So yes, the knight can take them, but the Kytan probably can't due to it's name including the words "Daemon Engine" and the specific restriction on Daemon Engines not being able to take Legacies of Ruin


BUT GUYS IF YOU TAKE A KHORNE KNIGHT THERE IS LITERALLY NO REASON NOT TO BUY THE LEGACY OF RUIN THAT IS 35 POINTS AND GIVES THE KNIGHT AND ALL DAEMON OF KHORNE +1 INVULN WITHIN 6". JUST BUY IT

It still doesn't have the "Daemon of Khorne" rule. But with forge world it's kind of hard to tell if it should count as a daemon of khorne or not. It's stilla good upgrade if you surround it with daemons of khorne but I'm not so sure it gets the +1 itself.

Roknar wrote:
It still doesn't have the "Daemon of Khorne" rule. But with forge world it's kind of hard to tell if it should count as a daemon of khorne or not. It's stilla good upgrade if you surround it with daemons of khorne but I'm not so sure it gets the +1 itself.

This is true. Here's the case for it:

The rule for daemon knight of khorne states that it counts as a Daemon alligned with Khorne, and the 1st war for armageddon legacy states that "daemonic save made by friendly Daemons of Khorne within 6" are improved by 1"

I would say that the "daemon alligned with khorne" would qualify it so that it does fall into the category of "daemon of khorne" and therefore would benefit from the +1 invuln. I think it makes a strong case considering that the inclusion of the wording "daemon alligned with khorne" would make no sense if it did not count as a daemon of khorne

As well, the 1st war for armageddon does not specify that the model has to have the special rule "Daemon of Khorne", but just specifies that they must be Daemons of Khorne, so I think that in this case, not having that exact special rule does not exclude it from this benefit

I agree.

You make a good point, but I could still see it going both ways. So I would allow my opponent to choose whichever version they are fine with.
It makes more sense to be counted as a daemon of khorne from a fluff perspective, so I would prefer to use it. In the same vein that I would count any khorne daemonkin as a chaos space marine (at least the power-armoured dudes/csm vehicles) for purposes like determing hatred for dark angels.
Yet that is most defintely not the case ruleswise (to me) ,now that they did not adapt it for the new codex. I already asked forgeworld about that specific relic, but they pretty much went with the whole: talk to your friends thing again. So yea, preferably it counts but I wouldn't contest somebody saying it doesn't.

Glad I'm not the only one who picked up on being able to take Legacies, although none strike me as "must-haves" - Outflanking knight might be fun though, as might a Knight with 12" Dirge casters

I'm disappointed we didn't get the updated options, especially as the Chaos Knight carapace still has the mounting hole for carapace weapons, and we could really use some non-flyer and non-Fortification AA, and I really want a giant spiky fist of Nurgle (I want access to a Gallant)

Personally I'm going for a Chaos Knight of Nurgle with Thermal Cannon. Daemon effectively gives every Chaos Knight a better version of the Sanctuary relic (5+ save Vs 6+, can be used in combat) and IWND goes well with 6 HPs. Havent devided on a Legacy but Thermal Lance + Foe-Reaper + Outflank sounds fun. Shame the Foe-Reaper has no additional effect against superheavy walkers, we can take down Tyranids with relative ease, but enemy Knights suffer no additional effect

@DJ3: Yeah the added Str D and stomps will hopefully be able to mop up deathstars and heavy armour, something chaos struggled with. The knight is so much better than the ‘thirster in terms of survivability it is not funny. Plus the knight can charge t2 unlike the ‘thirster if you swoop it. The thirster is going to be at least until T3 when it can assault if you swoop it even for one turn…

@astro_nomicon: Yeah that list looks solid, but there are only two ground threats, the daemon knight and the plague drones, both of which are survivable, but don’t have too much damage output (i.e. they can only take on one unit at a time. But that’s also how screamerstar works and it doesn’t have strength D weapons or stomps… so I guess only playtesting will tell how good of a list that is.
And I think you hit the nail on the head with your other post. The chaos knight is only slightly better than the imperial knight, but the big thing is the Daemon special rule which allows its invuln quite easily to be boosted to a 3++ or a 2++, which is insane for a super heave walker. That might just roll over the opponents entire army if the grimoire roll goes your way (or if you have fatey)

@Poly Ranger: The Renegades have their set list of Lords of war included in IA13 (vraks may have it), but until then, I’d say that the knight can’t be their lord of war unfortunately. You would have to ally it in somehow

thisisnotpancho wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
We won't be able to give any legacies to any with a mark either due to the restriction against daemons/daemon engines/daemonic possession etc being able to take legacies.

The actual rule for purchasing legacies is

"Daemon Engines (including Defilers, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Heldrakes, Lord of Skulls, Blood Slaughters, Brass Scorpions, etc) as well as any vehicle with the Daemonic Possession vehicle upgrade or Daemonic Resiliance special rule may not take Legacies of Ruin."

Neither the Kytan nor the Knight have the Daemonic Posession or Daemonic Resiliance special rule. However, the Kytan literally has "Daemon Engine" in its name... So I think you would have a hard time convincing any sane person that the Kytan can take legacies. But the knight on the other hand can without a doubt take legacies because it is not a daemon engine, nor is it able to purchase either the Daemonic Possession nor Daemonic Resiliance special rule, even if you take marks.

So yes, the knight can take them, but the Kytan probably can't due to it's name including the words "Daemon Engine" and the specific restriction on Daemon Engines not being able to take Legacies of Ruin


BUT GUYS IF YOU TAKE A KHORNE KNIGHT THERE IS LITERALLY NO REASON NOT TO BUY THE LEGACY OF RUIN THAT IS 35 POINTS AND GIVES THE KNIGHT AND ALL DAEMON OF KHORNE +1 INVULN WITHIN 6". JUST BUY IT

I think the intent is that a deamon knight shouldn't get to take legacies. Common sense.

Here's some common sense:
Is something that is never described as a Daemon Engine, A Daemon Engine? No
Is something without Daemonic Resilience, something with Daemonic Resilience? No
Is something without Daemonic Possession, something with Daemonic Possession? No

Is something which has the Daemon rule automatically any of the above? No

The "intent" is meaningless if the designer is too incompetent to translate them into the English language (or whichever language they choose to design in, but for our purposes, English). That is in a very literal sense, their job. If someone is too bad at their job to clearly write their intent into the rules, why should we care what their intent was?

Think of it this way: Can a Chaos Knight without a dedication take Legacies? Yes

Does the dedication add any of the exceptions that stop it taking legacies? No

Why, then, can it not take legacies?

thisisnotpancho wrote:
@DJ3: Yeah the added Str D and stomps will hopefully be able to mop up deathstars and heavy armour, something chaos struggled with. The knight is so much better than the ‘thirster in terms of survivability it is not funny. Plus the knight can charge t2 unlike the ‘thirster if you swoop it. The thirster is going to be at least until T3 when it can assault if you swoop it even for one turn…

@astro_nomicon: Yeah that list looks solid, but there are only two ground threats, the daemon knight and the plague drones, both of which are survivable, but don’t have too much damage output (i.e. they can only take on one unit at a time. But that’s also how screamerstar works and it doesn’t have strength D weapons or stomps… so I guess only playtesting will tell how good of a list that is.
And I think you hit the nail on the head with your other post. The chaos knight is only slightly better than the imperial knight, but the big thing is the Daemon special rule which allows its invuln quite easily to be boosted to a 3++ or a 2++, which is insane for a super heave walker. That might just roll over the opponents entire army if the grimoire roll goes your way (or if you have fatey)

@Poly Ranger: The Renegades have their set list of Lords of war included in IA13 (vraks may have it), but until then, I’d say that the knight can’t be their lord of war unfortunately. You would have to ally it in somehow

Yeah im not completely sold on that list either. Mass obsec spam (Gladius Mehreens), extremely mobile obsec (scatbikes) and lists toting a fair amount of D could all be potentially problematic. I mean a single 6 from the D table on Knight could put you in a bind.

While it is only two ground threats, those threats are both fast, the drone star has a pretty big foot print, which can be useful, and they are both insanely durable. I think its strength would really depend on the mission type (with Maelstrom primary being its most obvious shortcoming)

I made that list partially because of what models I own. Any thoughts on what could be a better hypothetical list? Drop Belakor for what else maybe?