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Showcase Comics is hosting an Age of Sigmar tournament on July 12th. No entry fee, prizes that I'm beating out of GW for the event
Muster at 10, roll dice at 11, 3 games

ShowcasePA@aol.com if you have questions or PM me here on dakka.

We aren't trying to break the game, rather trying to build a tournament system and figure out where we go next.


Age of Sigmar Tournament!

Our first tournament using the new game.
Sunday, July 12th.
Muster at 10am, rolling dice by 11:00am
FREE! And we will have a nice assortment of prizes.
Models do not have to be painted, but no proxies models allowed. Your models can be on the old square bases or the new round ones. You'll need to print out the warscrolls off of the internet that you want in your army and make an army list. Rules for that are below.
This is not a competitive tournament. We are learning the rules and going to have fun. You're helping to test out the new tournament rules and give us some imput. So bring what you want to play with, and we'll have some fun. Give a call to the shop if you have questions, or send an email to Showcasepa@aol.com or message use here on facebook.
3 games of 2 hours each.
Rules for Tournaments and League Games
Basic Army Composition
1) 100 wounds maximum, adding up all models in your army. (Scenery or other things without wounds may not be taken as part of an army.)
2) If you wish to summon units in the game, you may do so, but they count against your wound maximum. Essentially, summoning is bringing them from reserve with magic. Set aside a number of wounds for summoning during the game. Follow the summoning rules you are using as to how many models you summon at once. You don't have to specify what you will summon before the game. But you may not exceed the number of wounds you set aside. It may be that as you use up your allowance for summoning, the last spell you cast might be only partially successful if you have used up your allowance of models.
3) You must choose one of the four factions to draw your army from: Order, Destruction, Chaos, or Death. You don't have to use just orcs, or just chaos warriors. Any of the units in your faction are open for you to use. But you may find less synergy in their special rules.
4) You must have at least one hero to be your general.
5) You may not have more than two wizards in your army. (priests, wizards, spell casters, models with spell casting ability). This does not include units that might have a spell like ability, such as horrors.
6) You may not duplicate characters, or monsters with 10 or more wounds. You may not duplicate named characters or monsters of any size.
7) You may not duplicate named characters or monsters of any size. Many models represent a named character, the world only has one of them. If both you and your opponent both have that character, one is obviously an imposter and part of the fight is to sort this situation out.
8) You may not have more than 25 points of hero models in your army. This includes heroes riding large monsters, and any model that has the "hero" keyword.
Scoring for each Game
For each 10 wounds (or 10% if not using 100 wounds max), of your opponents army that you kill, you score 1 point. +1 pt per 10 wounds killed.
(Partially killed models do not count.)
Killing an enemy hero or wizard +1 pt per enemy character killed.
(If the character is somehow later alive at the end of the game, you don't score this point)
Killing the enemy general will give you +1 point for the general, and the +1 point for killing a hero. +1 pt for killing the enemy general
(In the case of an army getting another general somehow, you do not score this point, unless you kill him too.)
Holding the center of the board at the end of the game. If you are the only player to have models within 6" of the center of the table, +1 point for holding the center of the battle.
you control the battlefield.
Killing a large monster of 10 wounds or more.In the case of a hero riding a monster, you get +1 for both the hero, and the monster. +1 point for killing a large monster of 10+ wounds
Killing such legendary beings is a huge accomplishment.
Killing an army general riding a large monster is thus worth +3 points! )
If you just want a W/L/T result you can look at the point total.
If you want to encourage bloody games with mass slaughter, use the total points scored.
Limitations on certain models
There are few limitations on what a player can select for his army. But in some cases, it's rather obvious that a large amount of some models could lead to large advantages, either because the models are so superior when only judged by their cost in wounds, or because of combinations of special rules. This list will probably grow over time as we refine a system for tournament and league play.
Night Goblin Fanatics: You are limited to 1 fanatic per 5 night goblins in the unit they are hiding in.
Flamers of Tzeentch/Exalted flamers: You are limited to 1 unit of up to 12 wounds. Either 6 flamers, or 3 exalted flamers.
Changes to basic rules
Age of Sigmar was not designed as a competitive rules set. GW just didn't write it that way. We don't have a point system like we did in WFB8th. But to run events like leagues and tournaments, we need a bit more structure and a way to have some semblance of balance of power between two armies.
The purpose of these additional rules is to help stores run events, and for players to set up games between themselves. This is an early attempt at a rules system. They are not "balanced". They have flaws. They aren't designed to stop a player determined to create a monstrously powerful list using combinations of rules or only taking the very best models. If as a tournament organizer you don't mind this, then allow it. If you want a more friendly league, you may need to talk to some players about what they are bringing. The community of gamers is going to have to do some work to decide how they want to play the game. Rules alone are not going to do it. In the future, we may be able to develop a complete point system similar to what we had in 8th edition of WFB. This ruleset isn't that, and is designed for players to play smaller games of Age of Sigmar as soon as the game comes out. With more time, we can do a better job. For now, have some patience.
As we get more games played, and more time to review rules, and rule combinations, we'll know how to improve these guidelines. If you want to give feedback, please send emails to ShowcasePA@aol.com. I promise to read everything people send to me. I may or may not be able to reply to your points, but thanks in advance for taking the time to help out our community with your thoughts on the game.
1) Ignore sudden death victory conditions. Games will be played until one side is wiped out, 12 turns have passed, or time for the game has run out. (Turns go exceedingly quick at the end of the game and final showdowns between a few models can be quite dramatic. )
2) The rules say to measure from the model, and not from the base. In practice, this isn't working well. The odd size of some models with wings, whips, and other body parts causes a lot of questions about what space the model takes up, how to measure to the model for melee, and having models in a unit with different melee reach. The base does still matter, because it blocks movement and getting close enough for melee, unless we start overlapping bases. While AoS allows for different base sizes, its actually much easier to still measure from the base and not the model. Most players will find it very easy, especially anyone that has played 40k, or other games that use round bases. I suggest models pivot on the center of the base, and measure movement from the base.
3) Ignore all summoning spells. Summoning is not allowed.
In the basic rules for AoS, summoning just puts more models on the table, but you could have placed them at the start. It's just a fun mechanic. But when we are limiting armies by wounds, the ability to double or triple your army in a game with the many types of summoning breaks the system.
Alternative: Allow summoning, but only if players set aside wounds to do so. For example, a players starts the game with 80 wounds and can summon up to 20 wounds of models in the game.

What about special abilities that generates models?

Also why don't you comped the tourney... You can easily classify what units are HQs, troops, elites, fast attack and heavy support in each Army book like in 40k.

For example
25 pts max for heros
Min 25 to max 50 on troops
0-25 pts max for Elites
0-25 pts max for FA
0-25 pts max for Heavy

This way no player can spam certain type of units, forcing players to bring at least X pts of troops or whatever.

all special abilities that summon models work the same as spells that summon models

Why didn't i do it another way? Rofl.

I read most of the 400 data sheets, ran my stores, didn't take off the 4th, ran demo games, playtested with friends to learn the game myself and then got to work on how to run tournaments and leagues, and shot the system off to GW to distribute to other stores. I got 6 hours sleep in two days. Doing good to get what i got done less than 48 hours from getting all the game rules and warscrolls

When you say "easily classify", remember its 439 pages to download the warscrolls. Even if deciding what goes into each slot really did take no thought, that's still a lot to type into an excel file. Just didn't have time.
I do plan to do a lot more work on a system for tournaments, but i also want to see a lot more games played. Getting a tournament going where things are wide open will give me many playtesters this Sunday, and we can see what shakes out.

This is really a totally different game. It's got a different feel entirely from WFB8th. So i want to toss players and armies in a petri dish and see what happens.

Haha I understand.

Actually the books classified some of the units already, really no need for you to go thru all the books to classified them.

Heros (including Monster Heros)- You already limited it to 25 points

Non-Hero Monsters- You limited it to no duplicates, how about also cap the points limit.

Fast attacks-Any non-hero/monsters(usually flyers) that can move 8" or greater, limit that to X points

Artillery- Common sense- Limit those too

Troops: Everything else....

I think Mikhaila is on track. Simpler is better. And while some of the language could be tightened I don't think you need to delve into reclassifying into categories that don't exist in the game (i.e. fast attack/troops/etc)

props for making the effort to kinda balance AoS. tell us how it works out.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Haha I understand.

Actually the books classified some of the units already, really no need for you to go thru all the books to classified them.

Heros (including Monster Heros)- You already limited it to 25 points

Non-Hero Monsters- You limited it to no duplicates, how about also cap the points limit.

Fast attacks-Any non-hero/monsters(usually flyers) that can move 8" or greater, limit that to X points

Artillery- Common sense- Limit those too

Troops: Everything else....

Some of the balance is in the gameplay.....i think....

Fast troops are up on warmachines very quick and warmachines are fragile....
Warmachines can really mess up heroes and monsters.
Monsters can put a hurt on anything, but are fragile. Loads of wounds, but low level troops can sill wound easy because of fixed rolls, and low armor.
Troops put out a lot of attacks, and can take down anything.
Heroes have special abilities that enhance other models, enough wounds to last a bit, and enough attacks to do some damage.
Wizards are very toned down, but as with heroes, can work to enhance other troops, or just nuke a monster or warmachine with arcane bolt, if they have nothing else to do.

It may turn out we have....GASP!......a well thought out game. I really want to see what happens before we start limiting and classifying stuff.

Although i absolutely know some stuff will be broken and exploited, we are still in the discovery phase.

Just a thought, but maybe it would be good to limit it to no more than 4 or 5 of the same warscroll? This way you can avoid someone spamming the same unit for their whole army and force some variety.

After looking at the Skaven warscrolls you could get 30ish ratling guns in your army right now, so that's what made me think of it.

 bbb wrote:
Just a thought, but maybe it would be good to limit it to no more than 4 or 5 of the same warscroll? This way you can avoid someone spamming the same unit for their whole army and force some variety.

After looking at the Skaven warscrolls you could get 30ish ratling guns in your army right now, so that's what made me think of it.

Yes, been looking at things like that. Currently using just wounds allows some things like cheap weapon teams. The tournament should be interesting to see what happens, what people field, and how the lists do with the new rules. My feeling is that rather than allow people to abuse a system in AoS, the community needs to police itself a bit on things like this. AoS isn't playable as a tournament game without additional house rules. One of those rules may end up being "don't be a dick".

I started stage 2 last night, beginning the work to put together a points system that can address differences between things like 10 skaven clanrats vs. 5 warpfire throwers. But thats going to take a bit. Hell, just typing 400 unit names into an excell format will take hours.

You coming on Sunday? I know you have the models!

I would LOVE to, but we'll be at the beach.

At first I was intrigued by AoS because of the simple, free rules. Then I was angered and repulsed by the lack of points and force composition rules. Now I'm back to being intrigued by the attempts to compensate for the lack of points.

I was checking out the Skaven list because it seems like it would be fun to add some shooting elements to my Chaos forces as well as FINALLY being able to run a combined (mortal, beast, daemon) force again.

Is anyone playing AoS during weeknights? If so I may try to pop in next week.

We've had a couple of games going on every night since we downloaded the Warscrolls on Friday night. I won't be around on Wed night, but Thursday and Friday I will. I expect quite a few folk in on Friday as it's our latenight and the box will be out. Demo games and open gaming on Saturday, with several people wanting games to get ready for the tournament.

I wonder how many people are gonna bring Nagash, the guy is sickening good...

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
I wonder how many people are gonna bring Nagash, the guy is sickening good...

That's part of the reason for running the tournament in a pretty much non restricted format. I personally think Nagash is overpowering at this level....but i don't know. So instead of just restricting him, i want to see what happens. He's good, but certainly not invulnerable.

Load up on undead carrion and 10 skeleton archers. Proceed to shoot 11 points of wounds off the board with skeletons. Win because your carrion sit there the rest of the game and can't be interacted with. Seriously good luck in the game.

Oh and my favorite. Disagree with opponent in how a rule works, roll a 4+. Fateweaver changes to 6
6.

Rules are FULL of this kinda thing.

 Orock wrote:
Load up on undead carrion and 10 skeleton archers. Proceed to shoot 11 points of wounds off the board with skeletons. Win because your carrion sit there the rest of the game and can't be interacted with. Seriously good luck in the game.

Oh and my favorite. Disagree with opponent in how a rule works, roll a 4+. Fateweaver changes to 6
6.

Rules are FULL of this kinda thing.

Neither of those strategies will at all work in my tournament

Roll off between players is not something fateweaver affects, it's outside of the game. And I'm not using the basic scoring system.

A rules errata from GW store, pretty much made things look more 40k

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3iUmocmCYCUWFRzcWdQTGcxS0U/view

Can't shoot when a unit is engaged in combat and can't shoot an engaged enemy unit unless models are over 3" away from the engaged friendly model.

Non-monster models can't be targeted by range attacks if within 3" of friendly model unless they are closest to the range unit and have "look out sir"

And other stuff

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
A rules errata from GW store, pretty much made things look more 40k

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3iUmocmCYCUWFRzcWdQTGcxS0U/view

Can't shoot when a unit is engaged in combat and can't shoot an engaged enemy unit unless models are over 3" away from the engaged friendly model.

Non-monster models can't be targeted by range attacks if within 3" of friendly model unless they are closest to the range unit and have "look out sir"

And other stuff

I read it, and we are just ignoring it for now. I'll take a look at it after this tournament over and see if anything matches up to what we actually observe. It sort of looks like someone's knee jerk reaction, and putting in things from 8th edition. We're finding shooting into combat is not unbalanced, but being able to hide in combat from shooting would be.

So how did it go today - any chance of a writeup?

I'd particularly like to know:

1. What people brought
2. How many armies went undefeated (if any)

We had 6 players show up, and lots more say they were coming

What I can remember of lists:

Dwarves with infantry and 5 or so artillery.
Orcs with a giant and mangler, big unit of savages
Chaos with Fateweaver, warriors, Galruch, flamers.
Tombkings with giant, Warsphinx, royal spinx, winged sphynx, 5 chariots, 5 knights, 1 prienst.
Woodelves with orion and treeman, wild riders, glade riders, archers,
Slan, lots of skinks, temple guard, teranodons.

The TK list was the obvious powerhouse. The big monsters were on people fast and hard to kill, and the banners on the units kept returning 1 model a turn and keeping them full up. Getting a 5 wound model back is huge and it's something we'll have to look at. The undead don't need it. They are as tough as most of the other armies and crumble a lot less with that 10 bravery.

Big monsters seem to dominate. Not a problem when each player has 1 or 2, but the games where they have 4 are just brutal. It was something I pretty much expected but wanted to verify In the next version we'll be trying to up the points on 10+ wound critters, look at the power of some heroes like a slann who have army wide buffs and abilities far beyond other models with their wounds, and differentiate between infantry. Another step in the right direction, no where near done. Then we test some more. Flamers were, as expected, incredibly good.

We talked over a lot of rules and some things everyone agreed on. These are my house rules. I don't care if you steal them, or ignore them.

1) Large monsters, cavalry, and beasts cant enter houses.
2) If shooting through a forest, or through a unit, the target is assumed to have cover.
3) The player that sets up quickest gets a +1 on a die roll to determine which player controls who goes first and second on round 1.
4) Mystic Shielding cannot be stacked.
5) An unmodified roll of 1 on an armor save always fails.

Tournament went well. we started a bit past 11, ended at 6. Every game went to the finish with no problems. Some coming down to just a couple of models left, a couple were huge massacres. The mangler squig got a taste for skink in one game. Killed a unit of 24 and then rolled into the other unit later and killed another 24. Several of the players barely had looked at the rules, yet by the end of the last game everyone had a very good grasp of the basics and were starting to talk strategies and thinking about the next event.

AoS needs to be comped, monsters and heros needs to be limited for sure. Certain heros and units needs be nerfed or limited(like you did with Flamers)

I think undead units regenerating models should be treated similarly to summoning. You can keep a pool of points left over to draw from for either summoning new units or bringing back models from existing units. Nothing seems bad enough where they should be able to bring in new units or return models to the table for free.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
AoS needs to be comped, monsters and heros needs to be limited for sure. Certain heros and units needs be nerfed or limited(like you did with Flamers)

That's the next step. I'll be working on a better system for a couple of weeks, have another tournament, see how it works. Most of the generic heroes are fine. Even a lot of the named heroes. Its the high end ones that really warp the game if we don't have them costed based on how powerful they are in the game.

I think the best (also, most tedious) option will be to put together a companion document for each Warscrolls Compendium detailing points costs for each Warscroll. Something like the below.

 bbb wrote:
I think the best (also, most tedious) option will be to put together a companion document for each Warscrolls Compendium detailing points costs for each Warscroll. Something like the below.

Yep, that would be the end goal.

Sadly, just devising the points cost for everything is a daunting task.

Are the non-legacy AOS warscrolls better balanced?

Is there anything to the idea of approaching this like X-wing, and only allow the new models/warscrolls? Slowly increase the options as releases come out?

One thing beyond instituting a points system to the game I would like to try this with random activation like they do in bolt action or an alternating activation sequence.

mikahila, just curious if you've considered seeing if your fantasy players might be interested in trying another ruleset, like Kings of War 2.0 when it releases in August?

I ask since I'm going that route, and it's something you could stock and offer alongside GW fantasy models (particularly with its allowance of multibasing, so units can be compatible with either if put into movement trays).

 RiTides wrote:
mikahila, just curious if you've considered seeing if your fantasy players might be interested in trying another ruleset, like Kings of War 2.0 when it releases in August?

I ask since I'm going that route, and it's something you could stock and offer alongside GW fantasy models (particularly with its allowance of multibasing, so units can be compatible with either if put into movement trays).

Ahead of you

I had lunch with Joe Neet last week. We did some prelim work for KOW2.0 tournaments at my shop, and I'm already taking in pre orders on the rule book and reading through the download. No reason not to do both.

Excellent . I'm very interested in what KoW adoption will look like later this summer when the physical book hits; the pdf is excellent! (shown to backers only so that stores can sell the book, but content wise very similar to the free downloads just with all units / magic items)

I've already preordered the book and may get another to loan to friends to hook them

Thanks for posting your results, I'm going to incorporate it into my stuff.