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Please do - I know you've got a pretty good grasp on the rules so I actually did some detective work before I posted but a quick skim didn't reveal anything!

I've checked and that hints'n'tips is in both the campaign books too, so probably just that warscroll.

Bastiladon + (Cover + Mystic Shield) or (2x Mystic Shield). The bastiladon becomes a +1 save, ignores rend, and in addition 4+ save on a mortal wounds. Strap a solar engine on it and you have a 20" gun with 2d6 shots. That is a pretty tough nut to crack in my opinion.

Edited for clarity, sorry about that

Is that +1 save with one mystic shield? Because they don't stack.
In terms of stopping that bastiladon, skarbrand could cut through it if you don't clear him in one turn

I just edited my above post. Why wouldn't mystic shield and cover not stack, or double mystic? I don't recall seeing anywhere that they wouldn't, but I could be wrong.

And yeah, one of the guys in my gaming group also pointed at Skarbrand being the key to beating cheesy bastiladons. The thing is that he is a daemon, which means solar engines are slightly more effective against him. Just something to keep in mind I guess.

Yeah unless you have tzeentch wizards backing you up and can summon greater daemons all day 'erry day.
And saying it could stack. That makes it where I could have my wizards make multiple units 1+ . Kind of common sense . Same as it doesn't say I can't summon the same model as soon as it dies otherwise soon as you kill skarbrand , I put him back on the table full health.But I'll leave that can of worms alone .
And I can make the tzeentch wizards summon a bastiladon to fight your own just stare down on ignore wounds of you want to go that route

That is very true. I kind of want to see the summoning mess that would occur between Tzeentch daemons and Lizardmen, endless models if you have enough wizards, but that is neither here nor there, but the thought of having two untouchable models shooting at each other makes me cringe... But anyway.., good choice not opening that can of worms haha!

herpetitus wrote:

And I can make the tzeentch wizards summon a bastiladon to fight your own just stare down on ignore wounds of you want to go that route

Um, no you can't?

Great bray shaman + kairos fateweaver . Plus all the synergies from tzeentch wizards .Look it up and think outside the box

herpetitus wrote:
Great bray shaman + kairos fateweaver . Plus all the synergies from tzeentch wizards .Look it up and think outside the box

The Kairos/Shaman combo wasn't exactly indicated by your original statement, hence my confusion.

Wouldn't that just be a Beastmen Wizard summoning the Bastilidon? It's not exactly Tzeentch.

Kairos knows all spells of wizards within 18 inches ( monster summoning from shaman) Plus he gets roll modifiers such as :
changing lowest to highest dice
Add two to roll if you can spell the spell backward
Once per game pick the dice to your choosing .
That doesn't even include synergies from other tzeentch to add to rolls.

 Kriswall wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
With nothing saying that it does stack, I'd argue it doesn't. The rules don't mention it either way, and not stacking seems more balanced to me.

I avoid the "it doesn't say I can or cannot" arguments as much as possible. They get a little odd sometimes. We will no doubt house rule spells not stacking though. As 30 or so zombies with a +1 save if totally possible and would be very hard to deal with.

Not really hard to deal with at all. Ignore the zombies for a turn and focus on the Wizards... the Wizards who haven't been buffed with shields. Once they're dead, deal with the slowly moving zombies.

We have no restriction stating that a unit can't be the target of or benefit from the same spell more than once in the same turn.

So, let's look at what we DO know.

1. Wizard A casts Mystic Shield on Unit A. I now have permission based on Wizard A's Mystic Shield to add 1 to all save rolls for that unit.
2. Wizard B casts Mystic Shield on Unit A. I now have permission based on Wizard B's Mystic Shield to add 1 to all save rolls for that unit.

I have two separate permissions to add 1. That's a practical +2 to all rolls. Add a 3rd, 4th and 5th Wizard and you have a +5 to your rolls... meaning an unmodified 1 gives you a result of 6. Of course, you've wasted 5 Wizards in the process and pretty much guaranteed that you won't be able to use your armor as nobody will ever bother attacking you.

Doesn't this argument imply something about the source of the castings? You have 2 separate permissions to add 1, as you say, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can add them. Casting a Mystic Shield over and over again on the same unit does exactly what you say: I now have permission to add 1 to all save rolls for that unit. The idea being that that unit now has the spell on them called "Mystic Shield" and multiple castings are wasted as it would only ever change the fact that that unit now has the spell on them called "Mystic Shield".

So what we know is that nothing says we CAN add them, and also as you point out, nothing says you CAN'T add them.

My point being that there are two valid arguments you could make either way and that we probably (again as you say) have to just house rule it before the game.

I tend to lean toward not stacking - as you can probably guess.

Well said.

akempist wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
With nothing saying that it does stack, I'd argue it doesn't. The rules don't mention it either way, and not stacking seems more balanced to me.

I avoid the "it doesn't say I can or cannot" arguments as much as possible. They get a little odd sometimes. We will no doubt house rule spells not stacking though. As 30 or so zombies with a +1 save if totally possible and would be very hard to deal with.

Not really hard to deal with at all. Ignore the zombies for a turn and focus on the Wizards... the Wizards who haven't been buffed with shields. Once they're dead, deal with the slowly moving zombies.

We have no restriction stating that a unit can't be the target of or benefit from the same spell more than once in the same turn.

So, let's look at what we DO know.

1. Wizard A casts Mystic Shield on Unit A. I now have permission based on Wizard A's Mystic Shield to add 1 to all save rolls for that unit.
2. Wizard B casts Mystic Shield on Unit A. I now have permission based on Wizard B's Mystic Shield to add 1 to all save rolls for that unit.

I have two separate permissions to add 1. That's a practical +2 to all rolls. Add a 3rd, 4th and 5th Wizard and you have a +5 to your rolls... meaning an unmodified 1 gives you a result of 6. Of course, you've wasted 5 Wizards in the process and pretty much guaranteed that you won't be able to use your armor as nobody will ever bother attacking you.

Doesn't this argument imply something about the source of the castings? You have 2 separate permissions to add 1, as you say, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can add them. Casting a Mystic Shield over and over again on the same unit does exactly what you say: I now have permission to add 1 to all save rolls for that unit. The idea being that that unit now has the spell on them called "Mystic Shield" and multiple castings are wasted as it would only ever change the fact that that unit now has the spell on them called "Mystic Shield".

So what we know is that nothing says we CAN add them, and also as you point out, nothing says you CAN'T add them.

My point being that there are two valid arguments you could make either way and that we probably (again as you say) have to just house rule it before the game.

I tend to lean toward not stacking - as you can probably guess.

As you say, there is nothing saying we CAN or CAN't add them.

However, if we fully resolve the first casting, we are told to add +1 to the save roll. If we fully resolve the second casting, we are told to add +1 to the save roll. In the absence of wording telling us that multiple castings of the same spell don't cast, by not adding +1 twice, we aren't following the rules for one of the two castings. I see your point, but if Nagash tells me to add +1 and Kairos Fateweaver tells me to add +1, I'd better be adding a total of +2 or I'm ignoring a very powerful Wizard. That's a dangerous thing to do.

Those would be seperate buffs coming from two different casters would they not ? As opposed to the same spells on one target .

To be honest, although I don't like stacking Mystic Shield, I do like the idea of needing to prioritize wizards as the strategy to overcome the potential brokeness of some of these combos. In general, I like the idea of potentially having asymetrical situations (read: HOLY CRAP YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME ... 1+ SAVES?!?) so long as they CAN be undone by, say, killing the source - in this case the wizard.

Yeah then just focus the wizards but if you compare it to any other game .. You can't have your supports or healers stack unlimited amounts of the same buff on one character . But if the local places allow it, more power to you
Least with AOS there aren't as many cookie cutter builds with having more flexibility

Mystic Shield does stack, but what you guys are forgetting is that it has a failure rate of about 25% (roll 5 or less on two dice). The chance of two Mystic Shield spells succeeding is only 50% or so (40% for 3 Mystic Shields, 30% for 4). So you can make a unit practically invincible - but not for every turn, and not always when you need it the most. With unbinding, mortal wounds, and just plain bad rolls, it would be a mistake to rely on buffing saving throws too heavily.

The Mystic Shield can't stack is a hangover from last edition's magic system with augments and the like, and spells casting effects in other systems - most commonly Warmachine.

The spell is called Mystic Shield, but it doesn't give the unit a Mystic Shield, or an effect called Mystic Shield. It gives the unit +1 to save rolls.
Whilst I'd agree that rules say you can/can't arguments can be messy, all we know is wizards can cast Mystic Shield, they can pick any unit in range, and that unit can add 1 to it's save rolls until the next hero phase.
There is no indication given anywhere that you cannot select the same unit to target, or apply the effect again.
There's no differing precedent in any other rules available, either.
Therefore the most critical reading is that you can stack Mystic Shield.

RoperPG wrote:
The Mystic Shield can't stack is a hangover from last edition's magic system with augments and the like, and spells casting effects in other systems - most commonly Warmachine.

The spell is called Mystic Shield, but it doesn't give the unit a Mystic Shield, or an effect called Mystic Shield. It gives the unit +1 to save rolls.
Whilst I'd agree that rules say you can/can't arguments can be messy, all we know is wizards can cast Mystic Shield, they can pick any unit in range, and that unit can add 1 to it's save rolls until the next hero phase.
There is no indication given anywhere that you cannot select the same unit to target, or apply the effect again.
There's no differing precedent in any other rules available, either.
Therefore the most critical reading is that you can stack Mystic Shield.

You exactly hashed out one side of the argument. And it's a good argument.

You are right, casting Mystic Shield gives the unit +1 to save rolls. Cast it again and it gives the unit +1 to save rolls. The question is whether or not it continues to just give the unit +1 to save rolls, or as you say, gives the unit +2 to save rolls.

You are arguing that can do something (stack the bonus) because the rules do not explicitly say you can't.
Others argue that you cannot do something (stack the bonus) because the rules do not explicitly say you can.

Now, if we're going to talk about the more "critical reading" I would argue for the latter because the former opens up all sorts of potential weirdness...

For example, what if I say: if I hop on one leg while rolling this attack I get a plus one to my rolls.

Here again I'm arguing that I CAN do something (hop on one leg and get a bonus to my attack roll) because the rules do not explicitly say you can't.

But obviously that's ridiculous...

All that being said, I'm still not 100% opposed to stacking Mystic Shield - I do take exception to the idea that there is no argument for NOT stacking it.

Alright I'm saying I'm on the they can stack side but to end the argument why has no one emailed GW or asked an employee? I'll ask my local and give his verdict :-)

And his verdict will be no more valid than anyone on this thread. GW store employees are till monkeys, nothing more. I know, I used to be one. They don't have any more insight into rules than any other person on the street.

Reason why it's for concern lot of tzeentch wizards get 2 spells and tons of modified rolls with synergies. So it's a cause for concern knowing you can make a greater daemon 1+ save and also pumping out another same turn creating overwhelming odds since the first one could be near untouchable

I always check with my opponent to see how they want to play the rule and roll with that.

Personally I like the stacking because I always play with lots of wizards (even in small games I take 4).

I had 2 mystic shields stacked on 10 Empire Swordsman before giving them a 2+ rerollable 1s, they tarpitted 6 Skullcrushers (juggernauts) for an entire game without losing a man as juggernauts have no rend haha.

I also like to make invincible Spirit Hosts as their Ethereal ability means they ignore rend.

But that's just it. The rules say you can, and there is no indication to say you can't.
It's not a case of being obtuse - if you follow the rules, then Mystic Shield can be stacked because no limitations have been placed on individual castings.

RoperPG wrote:
But that's just it. The rules say you can, and there is no indication to say you can't.
It's not a case of being obtuse - if you follow the rules, then Mystic Shield can be stacked because no limitations have been placed on individual castings.

But Roper! Hold on! I'll quote you:

There is no indication given anywhere that you cannot select the same unit to target, or apply the effect again.

You're saying you CAN apply the effect again because the rules don't say you can't. Well...there's all sorts of ridiculous things you CAN do because the rules don't say you can't.

Wizard 1 casts the spell: That unit gets a +1 to their save.
Wizard 2 casts the spell on the same target: That unit gets a +1 to their save.

You're saying the plain reading of the rules allows these effects to stack - I'm saying it's not that clear.

If we follow the rules in the manner of "only doing things in the rules that the rules say we CAN do" then one might very well argue that Mystic Shield is not stackable.

A wizard may cast Mystic Shield and give a unit +1 to thier save.
A second wizard may cast Mystic Shield and give a unit +1 to their save.

The second wizard CAN do that, but it doesn't mean the target unit necessarily gets a +2 to their save....that part, as we've all pointed out, is assumed because the rules don't say you can't.

^ out of interest, do you apply that to other modifiers that come from multiple sources? For example if a unit gets +1 to hit because of a detachment bonus and +1 to hit because because of a general bonus, do you not stack them? Following your logic posted above it seems like you wouldn't.

Edit: and would you say cover + mystic shield don't stack? After all they both give +1 to save rolls.

2+1+1=4... See how plus one plus one works :-P I think if anyone has a problem playing it stacks roll of but my local GW play it stacks. Also remember if you be that guy too much you won't have anyone to play against...
Also remember that mortal wounds are very common.
Now for Nagash, 1 mystic shield and he has 2+ save re rolling 1's, then Morikhane which ignores mortal wounds one a 4+.... Killing death is a pain!

No, what I'm saying is that the rules allow a wizard to cast Mystic Shield.
If you have two wizards, you can cast it twice.
Nowhere within the rules does it give even a whiff of limitations beyond individual wizards being unable to cast the same spell twice, so nothing to indicate you can't target the same unit.
Mystic shield isn't an effect that provides a modifier, it direcrly supplies a modifier.
RAW, it stacks. RAI, no way to know.

Seems like some people are saying that Mystic Shield shouldn't stack because they think that would make it too powerful, not because of anything the rules do or do not say.

In the book that comes in the starter set, under the Hints & Tips sections, it has the following to say on modifiers:

Modifiers: Many warscrolls include modifiers that can affect characteristics. For example, a rule might add 1 to the Move characteristic of a model, or subtract 1 from the result of a hit roll. Modifiers are cumulative.

In the Four Page Rules, it says the following about dice re-rolls:

Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied.

So it very distinctly says that modifiers are cumulative, but dice can only be re-rolled once. So you can have multiple effects which cause re-rolls, which technically stack, but they don't translate into multiple re-rolls. Since it says nothing about non-dice modifiers, as in it doesn't explicitly forbid it, common sense suggests that Mystic Shield can be cast multiple times, so long as the conditions are met (one wizard per spell attempt, wizard has enough casts to attempt it, friendly unit is within 18" of wizard, wizard has LOS to unit, spell succeeds, spell is not unbinded). So there's a lot of those conditions that can be broken easily, or which would require undue risk (you are going to put three wizards within 18" of a unit for a 40% chance of getting three successful Mystic Shield casts?). Stacking Mystic Shield could be useful in certain situations, but it is not universally overpowered in all of them.