Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Psienesis wrote: "Pop the synapse" will also work (theoretically) on the macro-scale, too, but that is at such a scale as to be unfeasible from a resources standpoint.
That of course begs the question: How would eliminating synapse creatures on a grand scale be accomplished? Full-on assaults to break through tyranid lines to slay them seems like a fool's errand. Mass deployment of assassins to specifically track, infiltrate and target the synapse creatures seems unfeasible. especially with a finite number of trained and capable assassins for this purpose. On a macro scale I just don't see much for viable options to specifically target and eliminate the synapse without having to dedicate exorbitant amounts of men and firepower to fight off the smaller gribblies as well.
Of course I may not be thinking of some other options the IoM may have for this task. If you know of any I'd love to hear them.
1500 1000
Please check out my project log on Dakka here
Psienesis wrote: "Pop the synapse" will also work (theoretically) on the macro-scale, too, but that is at such a scale as to be unfeasible from a resources standpoint.
That of course begs the question: How would eliminating synapse creatures on a grand scale be accomplished? Full-on assaults to break through tyranid lines to slay them seems like a fool's errand. Mass deployment of assassins to specifically track, infiltrate and target the synapse creatures seems unfeasible. especially with a finite number of trained and capable assassins for this purpose. On a macro scale I just don't see much for viable options to specifically target and eliminate the synapse without having to dedicate exorbitant amounts of men and firepower to fight off the smaller gribblies as well.
Of course I may not be thinking of some other options the IoM may have for this task. If you know of any I'd love to hear them.
The Nid forces we are using for the sake of this argument, whilst huge, are mainly attacking one enemy: mankind. Sure, we have Octarius and the remnants of Gorgon in the Tau Empire, but the bulk of Tyranid forces are directed on Imperial worlds, meaning that the majority of Tyranids' military efforts are accomplishing what we see now.
However, we don't see this in the Imperium. Why? Mainly becuase they are split over an entire galaxy fighting a dozen different races, on a hundred different fronts. And they still endure. They lose ground very gradually (due to GW's obsession with the status quo), but they still endure. Now take away all those enemies bar one. One on one, who wins? All of the Imperium's might can be focused on one battlefront, to face one enemy, and win.
That is why, Imperium vs any enemy race as we currently see them now, the Imperium win. Whilst mankind are split in the normal universe, in a head-to-head, the Imperium's combined power can pretty much destroy any other enemy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 18:59:39
The Nid forces we are using for the sake of this argument, whilst huge, are mainly attacking one enemy: mankind. Sure, we have Octarius and the remnants of Gorgon in the Tau Empire, but the bulk of Tyranid forces are directed on Imperial worlds, meaning that the majority of Tyranids' military efforts are accomplishing what we see now.
Except that the reason why Behemoth, Kraken and Leviathan are well known Hive Fleets is because they have been focused on the IoM (until Octarius happened in Leviathan's case). But there are many more Hive Fleets in the galaxy, some of them hadn't even touched the IoM yet. The Tyranids probably have far more conflicts with the Orks than with the IoM if you consider the Orks' far larger population and territories.
But you are still somewhat right, current known Hive Fleets aren't enough to defeat the IoM.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have a nid codex with me but isn't the Swarmlord a special character? There wouldn't be a swarmlord at every battle then right? And doesn't he have a special rule that if he dies the damage to the synapse is worse than if a Hive tyrant dies or am I just confusing that with the rules for a tervigon dying near termagaunts?
Don't know about the game rules, but 'nid special characters are odd. They're not actually individuals - they're more like 'boss spawns'. The Hive Mind can create multiples of them... it just never does in one place at any one time because of the additional resources required making it inefficient.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
The whole synapse popping would probably only work if you eliminated an orbiting hive fleet and then slowly whittled away the larger ones on the ground. Cutting them off from the fleet would massively reduce their brain power and situational awareness (of the ongoing conflict). In a similar manner to if a supercomputer's main processor was isolated from the other processors and/or it's network.
Also could someone clarify what shadow in the warp actually does to psykers as I am not 100% certain of the effects that it has. I believe that it makes it difficult or impossible to use powers depending on how disciplined the psyker is. Thanks in advance
SitW is basically a static field in the Warp. It drives Psykers mad, because they can't help but "hear" it, and are touching minds with a wholly alien intellect.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
The Nid forces we are using for the sake of this argument, whilst huge, are mainly attacking one enemy: mankind. Sure, we have Octarius and the remnants of Gorgon in the Tau Empire, but the bulk of Tyranid forces are directed on Imperial worlds, meaning that the majority of Tyranids' military efforts are accomplishing what we see now.
Except that the reason why Behemoth, Kraken and Leviathan are well known Hive Fleets is because they have been focused on the IoM (until Octarius happened in Leviathan's case). But there are many more Hive Fleets in the galaxy, some of them hadn't even touched the IoM yet. The Tyranids probably have far more conflicts with the Orks than with the IoM if you consider the Orks' far larger population and territories.
But you are still somewhat right, current known Hive Fleets aren't enough to defeat the IoM.
I mean, I am going on the assumption that we aren't counting Nids from beyond the borders of our galaxy, as we have no concrete evidence defining their possible size. So don't hold what I say as absolute.
As for da emprah, last I checked he's a quasi-corpse sitting in a chair on terra with the craziest life-support system ever. I'm not entirely convinced that he's in any shape to do any real fighting from where he's at. As for his psychic potential, to my knowledge he's a glorified lighthouse. A lighthouse powered by a thousand dead psykers a day, how much of that psychic energy is his then at that point of they have to sacrifice that many psykers to keep his beacon going? Without some referenced info on what the emprah can do now I just have a hard time seeing him being of any real use. Horus heresy references are a far-shot too cause he was a different person back then. 10,000 years of bed-sores I'm sure have wreaked havoc on him.
The Emperor is the collective reincarnation of all the shamans of Neolithic humanity's various peoples, the first human psykers. The foul Warp entities that would become the four Great Powers of Chaos had not yet fully formed when the Emperor was born on Earth during prehistoric times, somewhere in ancient central Anatolia (modern Turkey) in the 8th Millennium B.C. But even before the birth of the Emperor, as humanity grew and progressed, the Warp began to become increasingly disturbed by the dark undercurrents of humanity's collective psyche, and the shamans began to lose their former ability to reincarnate into new bodies. Instead, upon dying, their souls were being consumed by the entities and daemons of the Warp. Eventually the shamans of humanity, unable to reincarnate, would become extinct, and without the shamans and their psychic abilities to guide the race, humanity would inevitably fall prey to the corruptions of Chaos, just as eventually happened to the Eldar. In these ancient days, all the shamans of Earth gathered in a grand conclave to decide what must be done to stave off the day when they had all been consumed by the Warp.
In the end, the shamans decided to pool their collective psychic energies by reincarnating as a single soul in a single human body to create an individual they called "the New Man." The thousands of shamans, as one, took poison, and as one, they died, their souls flowing into the Immaterium in a rush of psychic power that overwhelmed those daemons who sought to feast upon it with a cleansing, purifying fire, a flame imperishable that became one soul out of many. A year later the child who would become the Emperor was born in a Neolithic settlement of Anatolian herders and farmers. His psychic power was so great that its energies altered his genome and physiology in the womb and rendered him immortal so he would no longer need to reincarnate and could not be assaulted by the daemonic creatures of the Immaterium upon his death.
And now from Lexicanum
The oldest information given on the Emperor's origin relates that he was born to mortal parents in the 8th Millennium BC[3a] manifesting his powers as a youth. One account of the Emperor's origin goes so far as to say that he had mortal brothers and sisters and details the time and location of his birthplace - eight thousand years before the first millennium, in the region of Terra then known as Central Anatolia. This account also claims that the Emperor's birth, while a natural process, was actually the result of a scheme created by the wisest and most powerful of living humans at that time; the conclave of Shamans. These men, termed 'shamans' by their society, were powerful psykers with great experience of the Warp. Finding their souls - and those of humanity - endangered by the growing perils of the Warp-gods, these psykers decided to pool their power into one human, a being they called 'the New Man'. Already having gained the power to reincarnate themselves (upon death, the shamans' souls would transfer to the Warp, accumulating power enough to reincarnate as human) the shamans entered a suicide-pact. Thousands of them poisoned themselves and sped their souls to the warp at the same time. Presumably pooling their soul-energy and using their reincarnation ability, they brought about the birth of their New Man - the Emperor - one year later. This New Man, once he had learned of his special nature, proceeded to haunt the history of humanity as a ghost; watching, waiting and occasionally influencing.[3x]
And now exerpts from the HH novel Mechanicum about the C'tan known as the Void Dragon, which was one of the few to escape the Necrons when they turned on the C'tan, and how the Emperor defeated it with ease
Spoiler:
First, the effects of merely witnessing the Void Dragon's presence upon a Psyker whose power-level is never stated (though it seems that she is a fairly weak Psyker, with merely the ability to access the knowledge contained within the Warp)
The angles were impossible, the geometry insane. Distance was irrelevant and perspective a lie. Every rule of normality was turned upside down in an instant and the natural order of the universe was overthrown in this new, terrifying vision of distorted reality. The cavern seemed to pulse in every direction at once, compressing and contracting in unfeasible ways, moving as rock was never meant to move.This was no cavern. Was this entire space, the walls and floor, the air and every molecule within it, part of some vast intelligence, a being or construct of ancient malice and phenomenal, primeval power? Such a thing had no name; for what use would a being that had brought entire civilisations into existence and then snuffed them out on a whim have of a name? It had been abroad in the galaxy for millions of years before humanity had been a breath in the creator’s mouth, had drunk the hearts of stars and being worshipped as a god in a thousand galaxies.It was everywhere and nowhere at once. All powerful and trapped at the same time.The monstrous horror of its very existence threatened to shatter the walls of her mind, and in desperation, Dalia looked down at her feet in an attempt to convince herself that the laws of perspective still held true in relation to her own body. Her existence in the face of this infinite impossibility was meaningless, but she recognised that only by small victories might she hold onto her fracturing reason.
The creature gave out a deafening roar that shook stones from the city walls and the burning radiance in its breast was extinguished. Its grasp upon the knight loosened and the lightning faded from its eyes as the great beast fell to the ground.Perceiving that the Dragon was helpless, though not dead, the knight untied the long white banner from his shattered lance and bound it around the neck of the monster.
Dalia looked towards the horizon over which the knight had vanished. ‘Then that was?’ 'The Emperor? Yes,’ said Semyon, turning and walking away as the reality of the desert landscape began to unweave. ‘He brought the defeated Dragon to Mars and bound it beneath the Noctis Labyrinthus.’
the Golden Throne also now functions as a complex life support device and psychic amplifier, projecting the Emperor's mind into the Warp and across the galaxy.
Only through his power can the Astronomican beam its guiding light, allowing Imperial ships to navigate the Warp in relative safety. The Emperor is not just a beacon for space travel, however, but is said to continue to guide humanity through his Tarot, and through dreams and visions given to selected individuals. It is also popularly believed that he created the warp storm known as the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath during the Age of Apostasy, and that the Emperor's will holds Chaos at bay. Were it not for his unceasing struggle, the Chaos of the Warp would flood the material realm with madness and horror, causing untold destruction.[1]
In addition to these already profound powers, the Emperor is capable of stopping time for undetermined lengths and guiding his servants through manipulation of his Tarot and sheer influence
This basically says that the only stable Alpha+ Psyker in 40k history now has his powers able to be used anywhere in the galaxy (Imperial Cult calls instances of this "miracles"), as well as the fact that he has demonstrated immense powers (miracles) in the physical realm. (note: it states his ability to stop time as a fact and not as an Imperial belief).
In the early history of the galaxy, the powers of the Warp had yet to form into distinct entities. At this time, the emotions of mortals flowed and ebbed as water does in a stream. As the mortal races grew and prospered, so did the strength of their emotions. Eventually, the gods grew to such a point where they could act independently of the general flow of emotions and thus became the Gods of Chaos. They reached into the dreams of mortals and demanded praise and servitude in order to increase their own power, as the of more one emotion is exhibited (in both thought and action) the stronger that god becomes.[1]
This basically states how the Gods of the Warp are formed and how they gain power (worship, as well as emotional energy, but big thing here is worship). The Emperor has already become an entity of the Warp (due to the Golden Throne), and he is now worshiped by at least 6000000000000000000, aka 6 e 18, aka 6 quintillion humans (assuming the average population of an Imperial world is 6 bil, and there are 1 mil Imperial worlds), which is far more than the number of people worshiping Chaos (most of the xenos worshiping Chaos were exterminated during the Great Crusade, along with most of the humans who did, but some still exist from pre-Crusade along the fringes of the Galaxy, and many new human Chaos Cults have been spawned since). Chaos Gods, of course now, still draw immense power from human emotions and actions, regardless of whether or not humans are intentionally worshiping them (Khorne by every Imperial action in the history of ever, Tzeentch by hope in general, Nurgle by death and despair in general, etc.). It is generally assumed that the Emperor, in his current state, is as powerful as the Chaos Gods, and is the highest target on their hit list, just as they are for his, and he is continually battling them, and isn't even fething losing against 4 other Gods .
I've been searching for a thread that I was arguing in a few weeks ago, and in the thread, Wyzilla posted a quote about how the Astronomicon is basically the Emperor's own little Daemon Prince, and the Emperor is continually spawning "Angels of Fire" (Daemons), but I can't, for the life of me, find it.
Edit: The Eldar also believe the LotD to be the Emperor's version of Daemons, and, considering the fact that they make plans for events that won't happen for thousands of years, I'd be inclined to believe them.
"They are creatures born of the Warp; that much even a child could divine. That they wear the shape of Mankind's vaunted defenders is a matter as immaterial as the warriors themselves. They are daemons, and they must be brought low, just as with all their malefic kind."
— Eldar Autarch Eluinne Starshaper
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/24 02:32:06
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Whether Dalia's a psyker or not is rather contested - she's 'machine-touched', rather, with the only powers she shows being to act as a focus for the Silver Throne and healing a Knight's damaged knee - a power implied to have been 'borrowed' from the Void Dragon rather than her own psychic might.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
So he became a god without creating another Eye of Terror and embroiling the galaxy in a thousand yr long period of Warp Storms?
As Hulk would say; "Pffft, puny god."
Or maybe Real Space erupted into the Warp and from their perspective they are experiencing Real Space storms that cause everything nearby in the Warp to arrange into proper sequential Order and nearby Warp entities find their plans chained to itinerant processes.
Of course the way Slaaanesh was born doesn't necessarily mean that all Warp gods will be born the same way but I would expect something more then the words of an Eccelsiarchy whom declare they are hell bent on promoting the Empy as a Deity.
Toyful teasing aside. Considering the way the Warp operates I am truly convinced myself that an "Emporer God" can coelesce based on the beliefs of the Imperium. I'm not so sure the entity will be the Emporer though but rather a new manifestation of the Warp while the Emporer himself is still at Terra on the Throne phhysically and psykcally guarding the Terra Webway.
The Nid forces we are using for the sake of this argument, whilst huge, are mainly attacking one enemy: mankind. Sure, we have Octarius and the remnants of Gorgon in the Tau Empire, but the bulk of Tyranid forces are directed on Imperial worlds, meaning that the majority of Tyranids' military efforts are accomplishing what we see now.
However, we don't see this in the Imperium. Why? Mainly becuase they are split over an entire galaxy fighting a dozen different races, on a hundred different fronts. And they still endure. They lose ground very gradually (due to GW's obsession with the status quo), but they still endure. Now take away all those enemies bar one. One on one, who wins? All of the Imperium's might can be focused on one battlefront, to face one enemy, and win.
That is why, Imperium vs any enemy race as we currently see them now, the Imperium win. Whilst mankind are split in the normal universe, in a head-to-head, the Imperium's combined power can pretty much destroy any other enemy.
I understand the point your are making here but I feel it does go deeper than this. It's not IoM vs allied orks, nids, elder, chaos etc. It's IoM vs nids vs orks vs chaos vs elder vs etc. The other factions of 40K all fight not only the IoM but each other and themselves as well. By that vein then all other factions have thus successfully held their own against every other faction proving that they all have what it takes to partake and survive in this universe of war. The IoM is not exclusive in having many enemies at their doorstep. I doubt the IoM would be faring as well as they are now if the other factions stopped fighting amongst each other and focused solely on the extermination of the IoM.
Dusara217- First of all I want to say that I was thoroughly impressed and thrilled to see the well written and referenced post you made. Whether or not we ever agree about the emperor is in the air but know that I highly respect the post you made. Took me a while to go through the references and info but I did manage to glean a lot of info that I had no idea about. Learned a TON about the emperor and I feel there is definitely a basis for him being much more than a figurehead. I really don't feel there is much room for poking any holes in your references and info so suffice to say that I would be intrigued to see how much the emperor would need to "intervene" in this fight should the IoM begin losing too much ground. Chalk it up to my CSM roots but my mind still reels at the thought of the emperor post-heresy being anything other than a figurehead and marketing tool for the ecclesiarchy to control the Imperium's population and morale. Too much fluff from the "he's a corpse-god" perspective I guess. I'll definitely need some time to come around to the idea but you presented some good evidence for the emperor.
On another note something else occurred to me: If all the other 40k factions just poofed out of existence then what about the planets they controlled? Are they now un-defended areas of the galaxy ripe for the conquest? Because if so the IoM doesn't want to waste any time in either destroying them or garrisoning them because that much uncontested biomass ripe for the picking for the nids could very well tip the scales in their favour. With enough uncontested feeding frenzies the nids may very well gain an opportunity to swell their forces beyond anything the IoM could hope to defend against. Figured I'd throw this idea out there as food for thought as well.
1500 1000
Please check out my project log on Dakka here
I understand the point your are making here but I feel it does go deeper than this. It's not IoM vs allied orks, nids, elder, chaos etc. It's IoM vs nids vs orks vs chaos vs elder vs etc. The other factions of 40K all fight not only the IoM but each other and themselves as well. By that vein then all other factions have thus successfully held their own against every other faction proving that they all have what it takes to partake and survive in this universe of war. The IoM is not exclusive in having many enemies at their doorstep. I doubt the IoM would be faring as well as they are now if the other factions stopped fighting amongst each other and focused solely on the extermination of the IoM.
Not really. The majority of Chaos' influence/power is spent against the IoM. The IoM has the largest footprint in the galaxy (minus orks) and as such the majority of Ork and Necron strength is also spent against the IoM. Eldar are an infinitesimally small percentage of all actual, physical conflict in the galaxy as to not be worth mentioning. Same with Eldar and Tau. Nids, again, run into and wreck IoM territory far, far more than anyone else's, by simple virtue of the IoM consisting of so many more systems than all others.
Again, one vs one matchups are a huge boon to the IoM from the status qu.
(Obviously a united front of all xenos would be catastrophic for the IoM)
I understand the point your are making here but I feel it does go deeper than this. It's not IoM vs allied orks, nids, elder, chaos etc. It's IoM vs nids vs orks vs chaos vs elder vs etc. The other factions of 40K all fight not only the IoM but each other and themselves as well. By that vein then all other factions have thus successfully held their own against every other faction proving that they all have what it takes to partake and survive in this universe of war. The IoM is not exclusive in having many enemies at their doorstep. I doubt the IoM would be faring as well as they are now if the other factions stopped fighting amongst each other and focused solely on the extermination of the IoM.
Not really. The majority of Chaos' influence/power is spent against the IoM. The IoM has the largest footprint in the galaxy (minus orks) and as such the majority of Ork and Necron strength is also spent against the IoM. Eldar are an infinitesimally small percentage of all actual, physical conflict in the galaxy as to not be worth mentioning. Same with Eldar and Tau. Nids, again, run into and wreck IoM territory far, far more than anyone else's, by simple virtue of the IoM consisting of so many more systems than all others.
Again, one vs one matchups are a huge boon to the IoM from the status qu.
(Obviously a united front of all xenos would be catastrophic for the IoM)
But, don't forget, the Tau are meant to represent the other small Xenos Empires that are out there. They are one of thousands of Empires that are threatening Imperial space, they just happen to be commies, too.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Most of those other Xeno Empires get crushed within a few years, though. The Tau represent a *single* Xeno conglomeration that has managed to survive a century or so. Imperial history is littered with footnotes referencing entire Xeno empires crushed utterly and driven to extinction.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: Most of those other Xeno Empires get crushed within a few years, though. The Tau represent a *single* Xeno conglomeration that has managed to survive a century or so. Imperial history is littered with footnotes referencing entire Xeno empires crushed utterly and driven to extinction.
More crop up every day, though. It's sort of a case of the Hydra - kill one, and two more take its place. Or, it's like playing wackamole - you think you've killed 'em all, but then another one pops up.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Yeah, but most of them are tiny. Like, "they are in 1 system with four planets" tiny. A passing IG/Navy force rolls by, goes "oh, there's gribblies", lays waste to their cities and kills every man, woman, and larvae, plants an aquila flag, and rolls on.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: Yeah, but most of them are tiny. Like, "they are in 1 system with four planets" tiny. A passing IG/Navy force rolls by, goes "oh, there's gribblies", lays waste to their cities and kills every man, woman, and larvae, plants an aquila flag, and rolls on.
Or the xenos empire defeats the Imperial force, and then the Imperium blockades or quarantines off the pocket empire and then redacts any information about the aliens or the conflict (since the Imperium cannot afford to be seen by its citizens as losing). I would imagine the same procedure would occur for any secessionist regime that successfully fought off the first Imperial attack. Of course the Imperium may internally justify to itself that it will try again later, but that could be centuries or an indefinite later.
That is why the Imperium consists of islands of Imperial human civilization interspersed with swathes of wilderness space which can contain all sorts of minor alien empires or non-Imperial human empires. There are examples of such minor alien races that have no Codex but which survive and are mentioned repeatedly in GW references over periods of time, indicating that the Imperium has not wiped them out, such as the Fra'al and Barghesi.
1500 
1000
