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 d-usa wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Smoking a little pot isn't breaking the law, considering that drug screens have known false positives.

You never exceed the speed limit?

I have never argued that exceeding the speed limit isnt illegal. I have also been known to walk across the street when the light is still red.

I too like to live dangerously.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Hopefully the same reforms come to MD. These fat donutsucking losers stand around trying to bust you for going 2 mph over the speed limit when you're just trying to get to work on time. They should be spending that time on PT, not harassing productive citizens.

Or here in the Valley where cops will bust you for going 0.1 MPH at a stop sign because you did not arrest your motion completely.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Smoking a little pot isn't breaking the law, considering that drug screens have known false positives.

Just because one of the detection methods is not fool proof does not mean it is illegal. Radar guns occasionally generate incorrect data, that does not make exceeding the speed limit lawful.

Exactly.

Part of the insanity is that in a general sense, traffic laws tend to get enforced in a very common sense manner. People don't usually get tickets for going 5 over, because everyone goes 5 over. Sometimes even ten over. Generally unless you're racing past other motorists or going double the speed limit, the cops just don't bother. They're not there to go after every little driver going a little over. They're there to catch the idiots who are a danger to public safety doing barrel rolls in their Honda Civic.

Except in those special places where they just lay and wait and bust you for the most trivial absurdities. And unless you're local, you can never really know where these kinds of 'traps' happen to be. They basically exist so the local government can extort money from passers by who don't have the time or availability to go to court and contest the silliness when they're just passing by.

Just is pretty much my take on speeding. I usually go 5 over, not because I have some weird feelings about it not being illegal because my car or some radar gun might not be calibrated right but because I just cross my fingers and hope that a cop will think it's trivial enough of a crime that they won't waste their time.

If I do get pulled over I pay the ticket.

 d-usa wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Smoking a little pot isn't breaking the law, considering that drug screens have known false positives.

You never exceed the speed limit?

I have never argued that exceeding the speed limit isnt illegal. I have also been known to walk across the street when the light is still red.

Exactly, so we can agree that laws do not reflect established social norms in America, which, in addition to my point about measurement error, speaks to my point that citing someone for "speeding" by 2 mph is ridiculous.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:
Part of the insanity is that in a general sense, traffic laws tend to get enforced in a very common sense manner. People don't usually get tickets for going 5 over, because everyone goes 5 over. Sometimes even ten over. Generally unless you're racing past other motorists or going double the speed limit, the cops just don't bother. They're not there to go after every little driver going a little over. They're there to catch the idiots who are a danger to public safety doing barrel rolls in their Honda Civic.

Except in those special places where they just lay and wait and bust you for the most trivial absurdities. And unless you're local, you can never really know where these kinds of 'traps' happen to be. They basically exist so the local government can extort money from passers by who don't have the time or availability to go to court and contest the silliness when they're just passing by.

This is my point exactly: "we" (not me, but society in general) has, for some insane reason, entrusted law enforcement officers to decide when and where to apply the rule of law. That's a lot of authority to give to members of a group who aren't exactly regarded as "thinkers." My issue is not with the application of punishments for laws, but with the fact that they are given the authority to apply it as they see fit, or, as is most often the case, not apply it to their friends, family, and coworkers.

 d-usa wrote:
Just is pretty much my take on speeding. I usually go 5 over, not because I have some weird feelings about it not being illegal because my car or some radar gun might not be calibrated right but because I just cross my fingers and hope that a cop will think it's trivial enough of a crime that they won't waste their time.

If I do get pulled over I pay the ticket.

I'm still not a citizen so I'm trying not to come to police attention

Some odd reason the posted speed limit borders on shifting either high or low gear. So I go over ten mph over the posted limit

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Supertony51 wrote:
I'm kind of torn on this. I think the whole "taxation by citation" thing is ridiculous. Cities shouldn't be fleecing their citizens dry.

It reminds me of those shows they had on TRU-TV where traffic enforcement cops were followed around. They would issue huge tickets for the most trival things. That gak needs to stop.

At the same time...law is law and needs to be enforced.

The problem comes when the law, and its enforcement, often locks people into perpetual legal troubles for relatively stupid stuff. Someone does something dumb once, or can't pay a ticket, gets arrested, loses their job, can't pay costs, resorts to crime, gets arrested, gets divorced, can't pay child support, gets arrested, can't get a new job with the rap sheet, etc.

It can really be a vicious cycle in many places where something small very often rapidly escalates into life destroying consequences that far exceed the necessities of enforcement.

Absolutely. This state of affairs, which is sadly ubiquitous, really invalidates the two main claims of law enforcement, namely,

1) Cops are helping the community. Nonsense...99% of the time a roving lynch mob with a good moral compass would accomplish far more in terms of protecting the community. And I don't know anyone who has ever been arrested and is happy about it, regardless of what these losers say on Cops.

2) Cops work a dangerous job. It doesn't even make the top 10...they are professional meter maids who earned poor grades in high school, but kept a clean enough record to apply for the job.

Once people stop blindly worshiping law enforcement, we can begin to have serious conversations about restricting their (everyone from judges to corrections officers) legal powers back to reasonable levels. Do you really trust a guy with a 2.0 GPA to interpret laws he doesn't fully understand that will determine your future? Do you really trust a judge to investigate the home to which he's issuing a no knock warrant? Hint: you shouldn't, because they get it wrong all the time.

I'm a bit late to the conversation, but I would like to not that there is a substantial difference between state and local law enforcement. (at least here in NY) The local troopers tend to be as you say (although it does depend on the department), but state troopers generally require higher credentials, and generally get the better applicants. They also don't rely on fines (IIRC), so that helps.

 d-usa wrote:
Just is pretty much my take on speeding. I usually go 5 over, not because I have some weird feelings about it not being illegal because my car or some radar gun might not be calibrated right but because I just cross my fingers and hope that a cop will think it's trivial enough of a crime that they won't waste their time.

If I do get pulled over I pay the ticket.

In Canada everyone drives 5 to 10km over the speed limit you're considered driving to slow if you don't.

Good to see that some areas are addressing this criminalization of poverty. It is insain that a minor mistake, like travailing a little over the limit (or presumably things like having a broken light) can land you in jail in quite short order by piling fines on fines that people just can't afford. Put points on the license, issue a fine, but collection of that fine should then become a civil matter, not lead to prison.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

#edit: Upon further research, speedometers are usually standardized to +/- 10%. If you're in a zone where the limit is 30 mph, then you can be as much as 3 mph over the speed limit even though you are, to your knowledge, following the limit. There is further error inherent to the device with which they record your speed. Basically, arguing that someone going 2 mph over the speed limit is "breaking the law" is totally ridiculous considering that measurement error alone can account for far more than that, especially at highway speeds.

No they are not. Speedos can read 10% faster than actual speed, but not slower. I don't know the exact law in the US, but in the EU a car will not get type approval if it's speedo reads over at all. I assume the type approval in the US is much the same because it makes sense. The chances are that if your pulled doing 2 mph over the limit your speedo actually read higher than that. I'm not suggesting that we should have zero tolerance in speed, but if you are caught speeding, suck it up and accept it.

 LordofHats wrote:
Part of the insanity is that in a general sense, traffic laws tend to get enforced in a very common sense manner. People don't usually get tickets for going 5 over, because everyone goes 5 over. Sometimes even ten over. Generally unless you're racing past other motorists or going double the speed limit, the cops just don't bother. They're not there to go after every little driver going a little over. They're there to catch the idiots who are a danger to public safety doing barrel rolls in their Honda Civic.

Except in those special places where they just lay and wait and bust you for the most trivial absurdities. And unless you're local, you can never really know where these kinds of 'traps' happen to be. They basically exist so the local government can extort money from passers by who don't have the time or availability to go to court and contest the silliness when they're just passing by.

Old style speed traps are still the best. Go 65 then have the speed drop to 50 with the sign conveniently obscured by trees. BAM! Budget deficit filled! And a chance to intereact with our polite and helpful gendarmes who will never use it as a pretext to search.

I don't think enforcing laws is the problem, I think enforcing them fairly, and not using them as an excuse to enter into illegal searches and focused targeting of specific demographics is the problem.

People who don't stop at stop signs or red lights need to be ticketed for breaking the law. We have cameras for that. Don't want cameras? Then we need to stop having fatalities due to failure to stop or excessive speed. In my area, the data is clear, they work and save lives... so people can enjoy their tickets.

The good news is robot cameras can't unfairly target minorities or pull them over and search their car for drugs because they 'thought they smelled something'. They also can't roll up on someone standing too long on a corner in a bad part of town. So I support the cameras.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Good to see that some areas are addressing this criminalization of poverty. It is insain that a minor mistake, like travailing a little over the limit (or presumably things like having a broken light) can land you in jail in quite short order by piling fines on fines that people just can't afford. Put points on the license, issue a fine, but collection of that fine should then become a civil matter, not lead to prison.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

#edit: Upon further research, speedometers are usually standardized to +/- 10%. If you're in a zone where the limit is 30 mph, then you can be as much as 3 mph over the speed limit even though you are, to your knowledge, following the limit. There is further error inherent to the device with which they record your speed. Basically, arguing that someone going 2 mph over the speed limit is "breaking the law" is totally ridiculous considering that measurement error alone can account for far more than that, especially at highway speeds.

No they are not. Speedos can read 10% faster than actual speed, but not slower. I don't know the exact law in the US, but in the EU a car will not get type approval if it's speedo reads over at all. I assume the type approval in the US is much the same because it makes sense. The chances are that if your pulled doing 2 mph over the limit your speedo actually read higher than that. I'm not suggesting that we should have zero tolerance in speed, but if you are caught speeding, suck it up and accept it.

Source? Mine says it is +/- 10.

Can't stand cameras myself. They have no leniency.

In my experience, the most polite(and least likely to set up speed traps) have been
Highway Patrol>>>Sheriff's/County>>>City Cops.
City cops have always spoken to me like I was the scum of the earth. Highway patrol will speak to me as if I'm a human being. Everyone else is a mixed bag. I believe it has something to do with how they're trained.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Good to see that some areas are addressing this criminalization of poverty. It is insain that a minor mistake, like travailing a little over the limit (or presumably things like having a broken light) can land you in jail in quite short order by piling fines on fines that people just can't afford. Put points on the license, issue a fine, but collection of that fine should then become a civil matter, not lead to prison.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

#edit: Upon further research, speedometers are usually standardized to +/- 10%. If you're in a zone where the limit is 30 mph, then you can be as much as 3 mph over the speed limit even though you are, to your knowledge, following the limit. There is further error inherent to the device with which they record your speed. Basically, arguing that someone going 2 mph over the speed limit is "breaking the law" is totally ridiculous considering that measurement error alone can account for far more than that, especially at highway speeds.

No they are not. Speedos can read 10% faster than actual speed, but not slower. I don't know the exact law in the US, but in the EU a car will not get type approval if it's speedo reads over at all. I assume the type approval in the US is much the same because it makes sense. The chances are that if your pulled doing 2 mph over the limit your speedo actually read higher than that. I'm not suggesting that we should have zero tolerance in speed, but if you are caught speeding, suck it up and accept it.

And even if it is +/- 10% there is no reason to pretend you are not speeding if you are going 33 (according to your speedometer) just because you have somehow convinced yourself that "well, I could be only going 30, who really knows!" It also means you could be going 36 when you are going 33 while hoping you are actually going 30.

Either don't speed and fight the good fight if you believe that you fell victim to a wrong reading, or speed and take the punishment if you do get caught. Just don't pretend that speeding isn't breaking the law simply because there may be calibration errors somewhere.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Just is pretty much my take on speeding. I usually go 5 over, not because I have some weird feelings about it not being illegal because my car or some radar gun might not be calibrated right but because I just cross my fingers and hope that a cop will think it's trivial enough of a crime that they won't waste their time.

If I do get pulled over I pay the ticket.

In Canada everyone drives 5 to 10km over the speed limit you're considered driving to slow if you don't.

Oh you're not going to get pulled over for going like 5 to 10 km over the speed limit as everyone does it, you have to be doing like 20 km or over.

The legal margin of error for speedometers here is 5mph... which is why all our speed cameras are set for 7 mph over the speed limit. If your speedometer is outside that range, it is faulty and would need to be repaired. Claiming 'I was doing speed limit' when you were going over means you could fight the ticket, if you take your car in and provide evidence of a miscalibration. Long way to go to dodge a ticket.

Our stop cameras activate if you approach the intersection going more than 13mph as most times someone going faster than 13mph is not going to stop and go through the intersection.

In general, 25mph over is big fines and points and they will get you. Anything less than 25mph over is usually they have a reason for wanting to stop you and are using it as an excuse.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Source? Mine says it is +/- 10.

For Europe, European regulation, ECE-R 39. "speed indicated must never be lower than the true speed or higher by more than one-tenth of true speed plus four kilometers per hour (79.5 mph at a true 70)"

For the US (I have found it now) Society of Automotive Engineers, J1226. "manufacturers are afforded the latitude to aim for within plus-or-minus two percent of absolute accuracy or to introduce bias to read high on a sliding scale of from minus-one to plus-three percent at low speeds to zero to plus-four percent above 55 mph"

So the MAXIMUM you can be under reading is 2%. Or at 30mph, 0.6mph. In reality it is far more likely that it will over read for a few reasons:

Why calibrate differently for one market than another if they can both be happy with over reading by 1-2%
You need to leave some leeway as it will read higher as tyres lose rubber and deflate from ideal (smaller wheels will make a speedo read lower).
Cars are often sold with larger than the basic wheels, which will cause an over reading.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Good to see that some areas are addressing this criminalization of poverty.

Its not criminalization of poverty. It is well known and documented that Poverty, however, breeds crime.

So really, the problem isn't that poor people are being targeted unfairly, they are demonstrably not(is it really unfair when a target demographic actually does commit more crimes?). Its that there is poverty in the first place. Which is countered by trying to counter poverty.

So really, if you want less criminals, you should enforce existing laws and take actual measures to reduce poverty(like encouraging local business growth and development).

It is possible for poverty to breed crime, and public policy to exacerbate the problem by 'criminalizing poverty' with policies that overtly target or hit harder poverty stricken areas.

It's called the vicious cycle, and it doesn't just go away by encouraging local business growth, which in the US tends to just mean a mountain of minimum wage crap jobs that do absolutely nothing to reduce poverty at all.

 LordofHats wrote:
It is possible for poverty to breed crime, and public policy to exacerbate the problem by 'criminalizing poverty' with policies that overtly target or hit harder poverty stricken areas.

It's called the vicious cycle, and it doesn't just go away by encouraging local business growth, which in the US tends to just mean a mountain of minimum wage crap jobs that do absolutely nothing to reduce poverty at all.

Exactly.

It took a very hard lesson for me to understand the dynamics of poverty.

I grew up with an attitude very much like several of the more conservative posters here.

But an accident that nearly killed me introduced me to what it is like to have to live without, and to have all economic support suddenly removed.

I got to learn that simply being poor means paying roughly 10% to 20% more for anything than would be paid for someone with access to capital or credit (waits for the absolutist definition of credit to be applied).

MB

 Steve steveson wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Source? Mine says it is +/- 10.

For Europe, European regulation, ECE-R 39. "speed indicated must never be lower than the true speed or higher by more than one-tenth of true speed plus four kilometers per hour (79.5 mph at a true 70)"

For the US (I have found it now) Society of Automotive Engineers, J1226. "manufacturers are afforded the latitude to aim for within plus-or-minus two percent of absolute accuracy or to introduce bias to read high on a sliding scale of from minus-one to plus-three percent at low speeds to zero to plus-four percent above 55 mph"

So the MAXIMUM you can be under reading is 2%. Or at 30mph, 0.6mph. In reality it is far more likely that it will over read for a few reasons:

Why calibrate differently for one market than another if they can both be happy with over reading by 1-2%
You need to leave some leeway as it will read higher as tyres lose rubber and deflate from ideal (smaller wheels will make a speedo read lower).
Cars are often sold with larger than the basic wheels, which will cause an over reading.

Federal regulations permit 5 mph error at 50 mph according to the Wiki article. Feel free to search the referred website if it's interesting to you, http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/ECFR?page=browse.

A reference to tests as they pertain to practical effects: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/speedometer-scandal


In short, you're citing recommendations, not regulations and actual data.

sparkywtf wrote:
Only issue is the dropping of failure to appear.... why even bother going then?

Wasn't it found that in Ferguson there'd be people lined up to show for a required appearance, they'd close the doors for the day (wrapping up or limited numbers or something) and ding people for 'failing to show'?

That definitely came up somewhere, and if that was Ferguson then I can see "look, y'all screwed up, so you don't get to use this anymore" being applied.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Source? Mine says it is +/- 10.

For Europe, European regulation, ECE-R 39. "speed indicated must never be lower than the true speed or higher by more than one-tenth of true speed plus four kilometers per hour (79.5 mph at a true 70)"

For the US (I have found it now) Society of Automotive Engineers, J1226. "manufacturers are afforded the latitude to aim for within plus-or-minus two percent of absolute accuracy or to introduce bias to read high on a sliding scale of from minus-one to plus-three percent at low speeds to zero to plus-four percent above 55 mph"

So the MAXIMUM you can be under reading is 2%. Or at 30mph, 0.6mph. In reality it is far more likely that it will over read for a few reasons:

Why calibrate differently for one market than another if they can both be happy with over reading by 1-2%
You need to leave some leeway as it will read higher as tyres lose rubber and deflate from ideal (smaller wheels will make a speedo read lower).
Cars are often sold with larger than the basic wheels, which will cause an over reading.

Federal regulations permit 5 mph error at 50 mph according to the Wiki article. Feel free to search the referred website if it's interesting to you, http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/ECFR?page=browse.

A reference to tests as they pertain to practical effects: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/speedometer-scandal


In short, you're citing recommendations, not regulations and actual data.

Good thing that manufacturers are following the recommendations instead of the regulations.

Some more stories on spedometers:

http://m.caranddriver.com/features/speedometer-scandal
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/05/11/how-fast-are-really-going-accuracy-speedometers/
Of course none of this ever makes sense of the whole "speeding isn't illegal" claim that started this whole side discussion...

 Forar wrote:

sparkywtf wrote:
Only issue is the dropping of failure to appear.... why even bother going then?

Wasn't it found that in Ferguson there'd be people lined up to show for a required appearance, they'd close the doors for the day (wrapping up or limited numbers or something) and ding people for 'failing to show'?

That definitely came up somewhere, and if that was Ferguson then I can see "look, y'all screwed up, so you don't get to use this anymore" being applied.

They do this in MANY cities in Texas.

Houston, for instance.

For most Traffic Tickets, you have to go to this other court FIRST (in order to ask for a fine reduction, etc.), only at this other court, you aren't asking for a fine reduction, you are asking for an actual court date to be set, at which you will argue for a reduction. But they close the doors at 3pm every day, and if you are outside waiting (and there is not enough room in the courtroom to seat you), then you don't get in to get your court date.

And, if you pay the ticket, you cannot then ask for a court date.

So, you have to show up every day, hoping to get into the court to ask for a Court Date, and if your deadline to pay the ticket passes, then you have a failure to appear and a warrant issued. All while you are trying to get into the damned court to have a court date set.

And don't even get me started on some of the towns in West Texas, which issue tickets but which will not allow representation by out of state lawyers, and in-state lawyers will not represent out-of-state clients without a $5,00 retainer.

AND THEN... These tiny towns in West Texas... They have a number to call, which just gives you the address to send a check to to pay your ticket.

If you don't know how much your ticket is.... There is no way to find out, and if you miss the "Court date" they suspend your license (making it nearly impossible to pay the ticket OR get a court date).

MB

 Frazzled wrote:
Old style speed traps are still the best.

We used to have them...
Budget cuts to the police mean we never see police cars on the road. No visible deterrent means people do all sorts of stupid stuff they'd never have done if they thought they'd get seen.
The only time we see blue lights is when the unmarked Jaguar pulls someone over for driving while on the phone.

So, I drive to the speed my Waze tells me I'm doing. If GPS isn't accurate, speed traps aren't likely to be either.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Federal regulations permit 5 mph error at 50 mph according to the Wiki article. Feel free to search the referred website if it's interesting to you, http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/ECFR?page=browse.

A reference to tests as they pertain to practical effects: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/speedometer-scandal


In short, you're citing recommendations, not regulations and actual data.

And your siting a wikipidia page, and presumably this one, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedometer#Error, that does not give any citations, and is a wikipidia page, so, ye, I would take the universally accepted recommendations. All the major manufactures use them, so unless you are driving something really obscure your not going to be outside this.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Old style speed traps are still the best.

We used to have them...
Budget cuts to the police mean we never see police cars on the road. No visible deterrent means people do all sorts of stupid stuff they'd never have done if they thought they'd get seen.
The only time we see blue lights is when the unmarked Jaguar pulls someone over for driving while on the phone.

So, I drive to the speed my Waze tells me I'm doing. If GPS isn't accurate, speed traps aren't likely to be either.

To me that is a good thing about unmarked cars. When there is a police car around people drive so cautiously, but there can't always be a police car there. These people driving dangerously need to be caught. A marked car will never see them doing these things, unless they are really dumb, but they will continue to be a risk whenever they think there is no police around. Unless you have police all over the place then unmarked cars are a much better deterrent than marked road units as the people who are actively taking risks don't know if the Jag/BMW/Volvo/Audi behind them is a police car or not.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
[trimmed]No visible deterrent means people do all sorts of stupid stuff they'd never have done if they thought they'd get seen.
The only time we see blue lights is when the unmarked Jaguar pulls someone over for driving while on the phone.

To me that is a good thing about unmarked cars. When there is a police car around people drive so cautiously, but there can't always be a police car there. These people driving dangerously need to be caught. A marked car will never see them doing these things, unless they are really dumb, but they will continue to be a risk whenever they think there is no police around. Unless you have police all over the place then unmarked cars are a much better deterrent than marked road units as the people who are actively taking risks don't know if the Jag/BMW/Volvo/Audi behind them is a police car or not.

If people know the unmarked cars are there, they'll drive better.
If they stay just a rumour, they'll not exist.

Unmarked cars are a joke. Everyone sees them (at least in the US).