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Behind Enemy Lines says "If you have one of your scoring units within 12" of your opponents table edge, score 1 point..."

If you move your jetbike 12" from your board edge straight towards the opponents board edge, then turbo boosted 24" directly towards their board edge (so you have moved a total of 36" directly towards your opponents table edge) do you have Behind Enemy Lines?

My vote was yes, because after moving 36" you are within 12" of your opponents table edge. From the rulebook, two units that are 5 inches from each other closest to closest are said to be within five inches of each other. A model that has his furthest edge 6 inches from another models closest point is said to be wholly within 6 inches of each other. Since behind enemy lines only requires you to be within 12 inches of the table edge, you have Behind Enemy Lines.

The no vote(s) went along the lines of you aren't EXACTLY 12" away from the table edge when you move 36 inches directly towards it. You are 12(point)00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 inches from the table edge.

I couldn't find anything in the rulebook about this. The closest thing I've seen to something like this is when people are arguing about whether or not you can first turn charge with a unit that moves 12 inches, assuming both the unit charging and the unit being charged start at the edge of their deployment areas. Lots of people are saying no because there has to be 24 inches of space between the deployment zones, so you are 20.0000001 inches apart. Even for charging first turn, I couldn't find anything that says that, just that there are supposed to be 24" between each deployment zone -which to me, at least, indicates that GW encourages long-shot first turn charges.

What do you all think?

It has to be "completely within" 12 inches. So you'd need to move 36 inches plus the diameter of the model's base.

dont you deploy then move? otherwise rhinos (long stuff) would hardly move in.

How did you determine that you were moving "directly toward" the opposite board edge?

If you just guessed or eyeballed it, then you get to measure and find out whether you guessed wrong. The crooked furniture built by people who insist on eyeballing four feet lines is a testament to how easy it is to get your straight line wrong. If you measured, as in you got out your tape measure, found the spot on the opposite edge of the board 48" away from where you started, then measured 12" and then 24" more inches to that spot, you'll arrive 12" away from that table edge.

So, did you measure it or did you eyeball it?

Okay, what about behind enemy lines (since that was what it was specifically in this case, I didn't realize linebreaker was worded differently).

Models move onto the board from your board edge, as if it was hanging off the board for all of it except the very front of it's base, so your board edge is 0 inches of movement, and then you measure from there.


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 solkan wrote:
How did you determine that you were moving "directly toward" the opposite board edge?

If you just guessed or eyeballed it, then you get to measure and find out whether you guessed wrong. The crooked furniture built by people who insist on eyeballing four feet lines is a testament to how easy it is to get your straight line wrong. If you measured, as in you got out your tape measure, found the spot on the opposite edge of the board 48" away from where you started, then measured 12" and then 24" more inches to that spot, you'll arrive 12" away from that table edge.

So, did you measure it or did you eyeball it?

I measured it.

greytalon666 wrote:
I measured it.

But not with enough precision. There are two possible cases here:

1) You moved less than 36" and/or at a slight angle, even if it is only 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001" less or 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001* away from a perfect 90* angle. In this case you are not within 12" of the table edge, and don't get the objective.

or

2) You moved more than 36", putting your model within 12" of the table edge. However, since you exceeded the unit's maximum movement distance you are a cheater.

Don't bother to claim that you moved exactly 36" at exactly a 90* angle, because it is not possible for humans to measure a literal perfect 36" or 90* angle. You're always going to be short or long, even by the width of a single atom, so the only question is whether you're short of the required distance to claim the objective or cheating.

Moving on from reserves is measuring from the edge of the table onwards, as if it was off the edge of the table. If the model doesn't have enough movement to get the entire model on the board, then you go as far as you can and the rest of it hangs off of the edge of the board. Or you do a "This counts as being in X position."

It's on page 136 of my rulebook.

Therefore the first 12 inch move would get you up to the edge of your own deployment zone, then the next 24 inch move would get you to the edge of their deployment zone.

You would then need to move the distance equal to the diameter of the model.

greytalon666 wrote:
Even for charging first turn, I couldn't find anything that says that, just that there are supposed to be 24" between each deployment zone -which to me, at least, indicates that GW encourages long-shot first turn charges.

This is the same situation, just with different distances. Either all models have been deployed legally and are at least one atom-width more than 24" apart, or at least one model has been deployed and/or moved illegally and they are less than 24" apart. If you insist on attempting a charge that you know is impossible without measurement error (whether accidental or a deliberate "oops, I moved my model a bit too far") and claim that you are entitled to the benefits of that measurement error then you should expect your opponent to end the game and refuse to play against you again.

Claiming that human error disallows things is wrong. The rules state that the two deployment zones are within 24" of each other, as shown in the measuring distances on page 10.

Even if someone COULDN'T measure EXACTLY 36" EXACTLY perpendicular to their own board edge (and if you enough of an donkey-cave to make me pull out protractors and steel squares to get exactness, instead of being cool like most people and going "oh, your intent is xxxxx? Okay, cool, I understand what you are doing, go ahead and proceed, I'm going to pack up and not play against YOU), the rules allow for it, and stating intent goes a long way towards making the game fun and enjoyable for both parties. The rules don't mention anything about atom-widths. They just say you can deploy anywhere entirely within your deployment zone, and there are EXACTLY 24 inches between deployment zones.


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there are 609,600,000 nanometers in 24 inches. I don't see anywhere in the book that it says 609,600,001 nanometers between deployment zones. I'd accept "more than 24" apart", if you could point out where it says "24 inches and 1 atom width" "1 nanometer more than 24 inches" or even "more than 24 inches apart".


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 Peregrine wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:
I measured it.

But not with enough precision. There are two possible cases here:

1) You moved less than 36" and/or at a slight angle, even if it is only 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001" less or 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001* away from a perfect 90* angle. In this case you are not within 12" of the table edge, and don't get the objective.

or

2) You moved more than 36", putting your model within 12" of the table edge. However, since you exceeded the unit's maximum movement distance you are a cheater.

Don't bother to claim that you moved exactly 36" at exactly a 90* angle, because it is not possible for humans to measure a literal perfect 36" or 90* angle. You're always going to be short or long, even by the width of a single atom, so the only question is whether you're short of the required distance to claim the objective or cheating.

Show me how with a standard tape measure, you are measuring atoms. Better yet, show me how you are measuring tenths of a nano-meter with your naked eye.

I don't really get the nanometer/atom argument, but the table is 48" wide, and you move 36" total from your edge. This leaves you 12" from his table edge aka outside of his deployment zone. It doesn't really matter what the tape measure says, rules wise, it is illegal.

 deviantduck wrote:
I don't really get the nanometer/atom argument, but the table is 48" wide, and you move 36" total from your edge. This leaves you 12" from his table edge aka outside of his deployment zone. It doesn't really matter what the tape measure says, rules wise, it is illegal.

It does NOT leave you outside of his deployment zone. It leaves you toeing the line of his deployment zone, which is legal. His deployment zone is wholly within 12 inches of his table edge. If I move 36 inches from my table edge directly towards his table edge and stop at 12" from his edge, I'm within 12 inches of his edge. Period. If a model is EXACTLY 12 inches away from another model, and shooting with a weapon that has a range of EXACTLY 12 inches, can he shoot that model? All of you saying that I don't get Behind Enemy Lines are saying I can't shoot that model.

I was looking at Linebreaker rather than Behind Enemy Lines earlier. Sorry about that.

Accoridng to page 10, if something is exactly X distance away, then it is "within" X distance like you say.

Therefore if you are able to measure exactly correct then you can get exactly 12 inches from their deployment zone and get Behind Enemy Lines.

How do you know the board is 48.0000000000000001 inches across? It could just as easily be 47.99999999999 inches across. Let's not lob cheating for units of measurement that can't be seen with the naked eye.

Upto and against the 12" line does not equal within 12".

Can the deploying player place a model on that 12 inch line? If an opposing model is also on that 12 inch line would they be in base to base contact? (forgetting for a moment the need to charge to get within 1")

 deviantduck wrote:
Upto and against the 12" line does not equal within 12".

Correct. The example says it does, but the rule itself requires "any part of the base" to be within 12".

If you could measure 36" perfectly from your table edge, no part of your base should be within 12" of your opponents edge. (Assuming the table is exactly 48" across)

That's inside 12 inches. They have defined within X inches of Y however to mean X inches away from Y. With a 48 inch board, and an exactly straight perpendicular line you're mathematically within 12 inches, but not inside 12 inches.

The rule says that part of the base must be within x"

The example says that if x unit is 5" from y unit, they are within

They state the rule differently. Do you go with the rule or the example?

Neither, and both.. Mostly the general principle of measuring in this game- If the front edge of my base is 1 inch away from the front edge of your base, we are within 1 inch. Ergo if the front of my base is 12 inches away from your table edge, I'm within 12 inches of your table edge.

If the nearest edge of my base to your base is 12 inches away, I can rapid fire not? So I must be within 12 inches.

Interchange front and nearest edge if that works better.

Then by that logic cavalry can assault on the top of turn 1, because they move 12" and are 12" away.

You absolutely can, assuming you didn't deploy using any of the methods that deny first turn assaults.

greytalon666 wrote:
You absolutely can, assuming you didn't deploy using any of the methods that deny first turn assaults.

And IF they got rid of any rules about not deploying within 24 inches that used to be around.

Breton wrote:
Neither, and both.. Mostly the general principle of measuring in this game- If the front edge of my base is 1 inch away from the front edge of your base, we are within 1 inch. Ergo if the front of my base is 12 inches away from your table edge, I'm within 12 inches of your table edge.

If the nearest edge of my base to your base is 12 inches away, I can rapid fire not? So I must be within 12 inches.

Interchange front and nearest edge if that works better.

If you mean the general principles as written in the rule book, then no, they are not within 12 because they are not actually within 12"

That isn't how the base defines within. "within" is the distance from the closest point of your model to the closest point of whatever you are measuring to. "completely within" is the furthest point of whatever you are measuring to to the closest point of your model.

If your model is exactly at the 12" line and you want to claim that it is in, then you're a douche. You have to win every time you play. Congratulations you won and now go pat yourself on the back.

Rule 1, motyak

"Upto and against the 12" line does not equal within 12" ". I agree.

...

greytalon666 wrote:
That isn't how the base defines within. "within" is the distance from the closest point of your model to the closest point of whatever you are measuring to. "completely within" is the furthest point of whatever you are measuring to to the closest point of your model.

It has nothing to do with "within" vs. "completely within". The point here is that no part of the model is within 12" unless you have made an illegal move. And yes, people are entirely justified in being unhappy with you if you try to claim the benefits of an obvious measurement error.


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greytalon666 wrote:
Even if someone COULDN'T measure EXACTLY 36" EXACTLY perpendicular to their own board edge (and if you enough of an donkey-cave to make me pull out protractors and steel squares to get exactness, instead of being cool like most people and going "oh, your intent is xxxxx? Okay, cool, I understand what you are doing, go ahead and proceed, I'm going to pack up and not play against YOU), the rules allow for it, and stating intent goes a long way towards making the game fun and enjoyable for both parties.

And I could just as easily say that you need to "be cool" by not trying to claim the benefits of measurement errors. If you know that the only way a situation can happen is if someone measured inaccurately then the "be cool" thing to do is to say "well, the tape measure says I'm within 12" but that's obviously impossible so I guess I moved a little too far when I brought that model on from reserve" and then nudge it back a bit until it's just outside 12".

The rules don't mention anything about atom-widths. They just say you can deploy anywhere entirely within your deployment zone, and there are EXACTLY 24 inches between deployment zones.

They don't mention atom-widths because they don't need to. The rules say 12"/24"/etc, not 23.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999". All of those distances are exact, and that includes precision down to atom-width level (in fact it requires precision down to mathematical perfection). Obviously no player is capable of being that precise when playing the game, but that doesn't mean that you get to claim the benefits of your sloppy measuring when you know that you've made a mistake.

there are 609,600,000 nanometers in 24 inches. I don't see anywhere in the book that it says 609,600,001 nanometers between deployment zones. I'd accept "more than 24" apart", if you could point out where it says "24 inches and 1 atom width" "1 nanometer more than 24 inches" or even "more than 24 inches apart".

It says "at least 24" apart" (technically, at least 12" from the center line). Since it is not possible to measure exactly 24.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" with perfect precision there are two choices: slightly under or slightly over 24". Slightly under (the only way you can "succeed") is illegal, slightly over makes it impossible to do what you're trying to do.

Show me how with a standard tape measure, you are measuring atoms. Better yet, show me how you are measuring tenths of a nano-meter with your naked eye.

I'm not, and that's the whole point. You can't measure precisely enough to get exact distances, so you have to err on the side of making legal deployments/moves/etc. And that means your turn-1 charge is impossible, your flyer can't reach your opponent's deployment zone from reserve, etc.

 Peregrine wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:
That isn't how the base defines within. "within" is the distance from the closest point of your model to the closest point of whatever you are measuring to. "completely within" is the furthest point of whatever you are measuring to to the closest point of your model.

It has nothing to do with "within" vs. "completely within". The point here is that no part of the model is within 12" unless you have made an illegal move. And yes, people are entirely justified in being unhappy with you if you try to claim the benefits of an obvious measurement error.


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greytalon666 wrote:
Even if someone COULDN'T measure EXACTLY 36" EXACTLY perpendicular to their own board edge (and if you enough of an donkey-cave to make me pull out protractors and steel squares to get exactness, instead of being cool like most people and going "oh, your intent is xxxxx? Okay, cool, I understand what you are doing, go ahead and proceed, I'm going to pack up and not play against YOU), the rules allow for it, and stating intent goes a long way towards making the game fun and enjoyable for both parties.

And I could just as easily say that you need to "be cool" by not trying to claim the benefits of measurement errors. If you know that the only way a situation can happen is if someone measured inaccurately then the "be cool" thing to do is to say "well, the tape measure says I'm within 12" but that's obviously impossible so I guess I moved a little too far when I brought that model on from reserve" and then nudge it back a bit until it's just outside 12".

The rules don't mention anything about atom-widths. They just say you can deploy anywhere entirely within your deployment zone, and there are EXACTLY 24 inches between deployment zones.

They don't mention atom-widths because they don't need to. The rules say 12"/24"/etc, not 23.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999". All of those distances are exact, and that includes precision down to atom-width level (in fact it requires precision down to mathematical perfection). Obviously no player is capable of being that precise when playing the game, but that doesn't mean that you get to claim the benefits of your sloppy measuring when you know that you've made a mistake.

there are 609,600,000 nanometers in 24 inches. I don't see anywhere in the book that it says 609,600,001 nanometers between deployment zones. I'd accept "more than 24" apart", if you could point out where it says "24 inches and 1 atom width" "1 nanometer more than 24 inches" or even "more than 24 inches apart".

It says "at least 24" apart" (technically, at least 12" from the center line). Since it is not possible to measure exactly 24.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" with perfect precision there are two choices: slightly under or slightly over 24". Slightly under (the only way you can "succeed") is illegal, slightly over makes it impossible to do what you're trying to do.

Show me how with a standard tape measure, you are measuring atoms. Better yet, show me how you are measuring tenths of a nano-meter with your naked eye.

I'm not, and that's the whole point. You can't measure precisely enough to get exact distances, so you have to err on the side of making legal deployments/moves/etc. And that means your turn-1 charge is impossible, your flyer can't reach your opponent's deployment zone from reserve, etc.

So basically, what you are saying is: "Yes, it's legal for you to do that, if you get the measurements exact. BUT, it's impossible to measure exactly, even by accident, so you can never get it." Awesome.

Please edit your posts saying that you can score if precise in measuring, and refrain from repeating your silly "no one can measure exactly, and this game requires precise measurements, so everyone is cheating" arguments. They don't bring anything to the table.

Technically it is possible, just so statistically unlikely it may as well be impossible.

However that means it is possible, so one could turn around and say "show I'm not" if you said they're not because they can't measure exactly. Of course, you can't show they aren't right for the same reason they can't show they are right, so either some one backs down or the Most Important Rule comes into effects and they have a 50% chance of being deemed correct.

Gundor2 wrote:
If your model is exactly at the 12" line and you want to claim that it is in, then you're a douche. .

This sort of statement isn't helpful.

In 40k, 'within' has always been defined as including being on the line.