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So I've just finished a game vs my friends imperial fists and he was running the like breaker squadron.

We disagreed on the rules for this. He brought them on from reserve and hid 2 and just left a little bit of the third showing so he could fire it. He then fired the massive ignores cover shot.
Now the way I see it it says something like, if all models can fire... Meaning they all need to be in range and in Los. He just said it means they are all alive with their weapons funcarionable.

How are other people interperating this as it's seems bloody good if 2 can hide and the 3rd can mostly hide to keep a good cover save. I see its exposure as the down side to having a s10 ap2 ignores cover but who knows with gw rules.

Be interested to hear people's view on this

If the rule says that "if all models can fire" insted of "if all models can fire at the target unit" or something similar, his interpretation seems to be right.
RAW he's right, RAI I think it's upposed to be the way you think.

Basically it's just another wording fail by GW and we'll have to live with it.

 soomemafia wrote:
If the rule says that "if all models can fire" insted of "if all models can fire at the target unit" or something similar, his interpretation seems to be right.
RAW he's right, RAI I think it's upposed to be the way you think.

Basically it's just another wording fail by GW and we'll have to live with it.

It is if all models can fire, I've also interpreted this to mean they are not shaken/stunned or weapon destroyed as opposed to range and LOS.

If a model is not in range or can not dry line of site it can not target a unit and therefor can not fire. Come on guys. That's how it works. They all have to be in range. Firing happens after you target a unit. Not before. There is absolutely no room for interpretation in this one

I have read it like the old Fire Prism version:
If all models are capable of firing at all, and any 1 of them can fire at the target, they get to use the special shot.
I think of it as a targeting array, or similar.
Since it takes all 3 to do it, knock out any one of them, and the special shot is unavailable.

 Skinnereal wrote:
I have read it like the old Fire Prism version:
If all models are capable of firing at all, and any 1 of them can fire at the target, they get to use the special shot.
I think of it as a targeting array, or similar.
Since it takes all 3 to do it, knock out any one of them, and the special shot is unavailable.

That's not what it says though. It says they can all fire, and they can't because you have to target a unit and they have to be in range to fire

jakejackjake wrote:
That's not what it says though. It says they can all fire, and they can't because you have to target a unit and they have to be in range to fire

"Firing" and "Targeting" are different things.
I'll re-read it later, but I'm sure only 1 has to be able to target the enemy model, but all 3 need to be able to fire at full strength (no snap shots, etc).

dark_red wrote:
So I've just finished a game vs my friends imperial fists and he was running the like breaker squadron.

We disagreed on the rules for this. He brought them on from reserve and hid 2 and just left a little bit of the third showing so he could fire it. He then fired the massive ignores cover shot.
Now the way I see it it says something like, if all models can fire... Meaning they all need to be in range and in Los. He just said it means they are all alive with their weapons funcarionable.

How are other people interperating this as it's seems bloody good if 2 can hide and the 3rd can mostly hide to keep a good cover save. I see its exposure as the down side to having a s10 ap2 ignores cover but who knows with gw rules.

Be interested to hear people's view on this

Call him out on gaming the system. You are playing 40k to have fun after all, and the shot is representing all three firing at the same time. Not only is it RAI it is also RAW, since "if all model can fire" is only unclear if you are a 40k rules lawyer.

 Skinnereal wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
That's not what it says though. It says they can all fire, and they can't because you have to target a unit and they have to be in range to fire

"Firing" and "Targeting" are different things.
I'll re-read it later, but I'm sure only 1 has to be able to target the enemy model, but all 3 need to be able to fire at full strength (no snap shots, etc).

They are different, however you must be able to target to fire since you can't pop shots in the air in 40k

jakejackjake wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
That's not what it says though. It says they can all fire, and they can't because you have to target a unit and they have to be in range to fire

"Firing" and "Targeting" are different things.

They are different, however you must be able to target to fire since you can't pop shots in the air in 40k

Barrage.
G ranges went some time ago, though.

AFAIK barrage still needs to target, it's just allowed to target without LoS.

No range or LoS means you cannot fire. No room to wiggle there.

Technically if another enemy unit is within range and LoS of the other two, then all the models *can* fire. It is gamesmanship tbf imo though.

The way the squadron works you can effectively have one vindi 20" away from the front cannon and have it able to shoot 44" contributing to the super blast.

 HANZERtank wrote:
The way the squadron works you can effectively have one vindi 20" away from the front cannon and have it able to shoot 44" contributing to the super blast.

Well not quite. vehicle squadrons must maintain unit coherency of within 4" of each other.


When i read the rule myself, it did appear to be that only one had to actually be in range and in LOS. It's not really a problem. It's not that hard to knock out one of the vindicators.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Technically if another enemy unit is within range and LoS of the other two, then all the models *can* fire.

That other enemy unit still wouldn't be a valid target. The Vindicators are part of a squadron, and so they all have to shoot at the same target. So maybe the intent is that they all must be within LOS and range of the intended target, otherwise the *cannot* fire (regardless of whether other units are in range or not).

"Which Models Can Fire? P31
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot."

"Check Range P31
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all
visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot."

"Linebreaker Bombardment:
If this unit contains three Vindicators that can all
fire their demolisher cannons, the squadron can"

You need to be able to fire your demolisher cannon, you cannot shoot a weapon if it doesn't have range to your target, you cannot fire a weapon if you don't have line of sight to your target.

You CAN fire if you don't have LOS to your target. You were doing just fine until you tried to get that one last generic point.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
The way the squadron works you can effectively have one vindi 20" away from the front cannon and have it able to shoot 44" contributing to the super blast.

Well not quite. vehicle squadrons must maintain unit coherency of within 4" of each other.


When i read the rule myself, it did appear to be that only one had to actually be in range and in LOS. It's not really a problem. It's not that hard to knock out one of the vindicators.

The model is about 6" long as well. So you have front cannon then 6" of hull, then 4" coherency then more hull and more coherency if you have them conga line out. Makes just under 20" from one cannon to the next.

xera32 wrote:
"Which Models Can Fire? P31
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot."

"Check Range P31
Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all
visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot."

"Linebreaker Bombardment:
If this unit contains three Vindicators that can all
fire their demolisher cannons, the squadron can"

You need to be able to fire your demolisher cannon, you cannot shoot a weapon if it doesn't have range to your target, you cannot fire a weapon if you don't have line of sight to your target.

Thanks for quoting some rules. The vindicators are all members of a single unit, and the unit selects a single target unit first before determining "who can fire". This all suggests they all need range and LoS, and this is the way I'd lean for now. There's enough ambiguity around "able to fire" that an alternate interpretation might be possible?

I read it as a check to make sure the model is permitted to fire, but not at any specific target. The only time the target matters is after you pick who the firing tank will be.

 DJGietzen wrote:
I read it as a check to make sure the model is permitted to fire, but not at any specific target. The only time the target matters is after you pick who the firing tank will be.

but they all fire as a unit after the target is selected

axisofentropy wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
I read it as a check to make sure the model is permitted to fire, but not at any specific target. The only time the target matters is after you pick who the firing tank will be.

but they all fire as a unit after the target is selected

So the first one shoots, the second one shoots the first one's shot giving it a boost, and the third one does so again, really amping up the velocity

I don't know. Whatever the rules say, one can make up an explaination for why it works when you can make up laws of physics breaking things like anti-grav.

It only says that they be able to fire, not be able to fire at the same target and draw los to same target as well as be in range of the same target. Only be able to fire.

And if they do not have LOS/range to the target are they able to fire?

And if they do not have LOS/range to the target are they able to fire?

Depends on who you ask.

Some people think they are "able to fire" as long as their gun works, and they're not crew-stunned, snapshotting etc.

Some people think they're only able to fire if they're able to fire at the right target.

I don't see a stronger case being made by either side yet.

I don't know about that, Breton, as one side has supported their interpretation using Rule Quotes.

Quoted Rule tend to be considered very 'strong' evidence when determining if a specific interpretation is 'more correct' then another. As this is nothing more then a game, defined by it's Rules, the only 'correct' answers that can be put forth are those that meet the requirements detailed within the Rules themselves. In this situation we have a Rule literally titled 'Which Model Can Fire,' that puts forth a list of requirements to be met in order for a Model to be able to legally fire their weapon. That means the question is simply thus: If a Model does not meet the requirements laid out by this Rule, are they able to Fire their Weapon?

Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
- Which Models Can Fire?

So here it goes.....
"To target an enemy unit, at least ONE MODEL must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit."
page 30, 40k rule book

"Out of Sight. If none of the firing MODELS can draw line of sight to a particular model in the target unit, then wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to to the nearest VISIBLE model in the target unit. If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost."
Page 35

"Which models can fire. Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot."
Page 31
There is even a helpful picture of orcs vs marines to help explain.

So unfortunately for your friend I'm pretty positive he was cheating. Unless his vindicators have a cheese rule that allows them to ignore LOS He cannot fire at you under those circumstances. The one that has LOS, yes. The other two hiding, no.

I read the rules for the unit again, and am now agreeing that all models need range and LoS to the target point.

JinxDragon wrote:
I don't know about that, Breton, as one side has supported their interpretation using Rule Quotes.

Quoted Rule tend to be considered very 'strong' evidence when determining if a specific interpretation is 'more correct' then another.

Actually both sides have quoted rules in support. And both suggest a different slant in the reading that both make sense but are mutually exclusive.

Breton wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I don't know about that, Breton, as one side has supported their interpretation using Rule Quotes.

Quoted Rule tend to be considered very 'strong' evidence when determining if a specific interpretation is 'more correct' then another.

Actually both sides have quoted rules in support. And both suggest a different slant in the reading that both make sense but are mutually exclusive.

Very true but I think it all just comes down to whether or not the model has LOS. Since GW seems a lot more black and white about LOS then most other rules it seems.