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 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
If an apothecary can't take anything other than a bolt pistol or a chainsword, then how come you can equip 3 flamers and 2 combi flamers to the whole squad in the force requisition bit? (on iPad)

Because the 'force requisition bit' isn't an army builder, its a collection manager.

Amusing, but it's still an army builder you muppet.

No its not an army builder because it never verifies your army list.

Lol. Unless someone can prove me wrong (like say,produce a document from GW that says otherwise?) I'm done here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/626628.page#7425724

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/608320.page#7081858

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/606793.page#7050808

Not that I agree with either side, but that isn't an official GW pronouncement.

And for all the double grav doesn't allow a champion upgrade, one can easily counter that it won't let you take 5 missile launchers in a Devastator squad, or 3 Assault Canons in a Termi squad etc so there is some level if list verification.

Breton wrote:

Ravenwing Command Squad: from what I can tell you're allowed to replace the plasma talon for a grenade launcher and then upgrade to an Apothecary, retaining said launcher. But no plasma pistols anywhere.

Doesn't that say Black Knight may? Ergo the same logic says an Apothecary can't upgrade his bike?

Different order of options. The Talon swap comes before the Apothecary upgrade in the list of options, so I assume you can do it. Not that it actually matters for the topic at hand.

@angelofvengance I'll simply stop replying to you since you apparently like to make up stuff and insult people rather than have a discussion.

A good read for you would be

How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate by Centurian99

nekooni wrote:

Breton wrote:

Ravenwing Command Squad: from what I can tell you're allowed to replace the plasma talon for a grenade launcher and then upgrade to an Apothecary, retaining said launcher. But no plasma pistols anywhere.

Doesn't that say Black Knight may? Ergo the same logic says an Apothecary can't upgrade his bike?

Different order of options. The Talon swap comes before the Apothecary upgrade in the list of options, so I assume you can do it. Not that it actually matters for the topic at hand.

@angelofvengance I'll simply stop replying to you since you apparently like to make up stuff and insult people rather than have a discussion.

A good read for you would be

How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate by Centurian99

But that's part of the debate here-

One side says you have to be legal at the end, ergo because an Apothecary (allegedly) isn't a Black Knight any more, the upgrade becomes illegal as soon as he becomes an Apothecary.

GW has never given guidance on order of upgrade of this nature. I can see both lines of thought and see they both have merit. The clincher for me personally is fluff related, so I expect some to scoff at this. The bolt pistol of an apothecary is, amongst other things, for delivering the Emperer's grace to wounded Space Marines to ease their passing. Now imagine the conversation if you have just 'upgraded' him to a different weapon.

"My dear brother you are mortally wounded, I will deliver the grace of the Emperer and you will live on in myth and legend"

"Make it quick brother apothecary, one shot, may the Emperer guide me"

"Actually I have a grav gun now, so you sit there while I crush you to death inside your own armour."

"You what?... arrrggghhhh!!!!!!"

While I see both sides of the debate I think it's less safe to assume there's an arbitrarily decided order of operations that allows it versus simply asking the question when all is said and done of, "Which models are stated as being allowed upgrades? So why does an Apothecary have them?"

That said, I wouldn't fret if I came across it in a game.

Breton wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Breton wrote:

Ravenwing Command Squad: from what I can tell you're allowed to replace the plasma talon for a grenade launcher and then upgrade to an Apothecary, retaining said launcher. But no plasma pistols anywhere.

Doesn't that say Black Knight may? Ergo the same logic says an Apothecary can't upgrade his bike?

Different order of options. The Talon swap comes before the Apothecary upgrade in the list of options, so I assume you can do it. Not that it actually matters for the topic at hand.

@angelofvengance I'll simply stop replying to you since you apparently like to make up stuff and insult people rather than have a discussion.

A good read for you would be

How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate by Centurian99

But that's part of the debate here-

One side says you have to be legal at the end, ergo because an Apothecary (allegedly) isn't a Black Knight any more, the upgrade becomes illegal as soon as he becomes an Apothecary.

Well he isn't a Black Knight model anymore, that's a fact - not just an opinion.

If you followed the thread you see that there are basically three ways to use the "options" section:
a) Go through from top to bottom. If line 4 allows you to purchase X, you will not loose it later on unless explicitly stated (e.g. "swap out BP for a narthecium" in earlier editions)
b) Go through in any order you choose. If the Apothecary upgrade comes first in the list, jump over it, grab a Grav Gun, then go back and purchase the Apothecary upgrade. You again keep any upgrades unless explicitly stated.
c) Same as b), but once you've compiled your list of upgrades, you have to verify any upgrade chosen against the resulting model. e.g. If your model changes you loose any upgrade that was not initially available to the new model (e.g. "Sarges and Vet Sarges may" is fine for a Vet Sarge, but "Veteran may" isn't for an Apothecary(former Veteran).

Which one you use is really up to you since there's no rule for it. I personally use a) since it's pretty intuitive and easy to apply while working well with most unit data sheets, but I wouldn't throw a fit if someone wants to bring a Grav Gun Apothecary.

random_man wrote:
GW has never given guidance on order of upgrade of this nature. I can see both lines of thought and see they both have merit. The clincher for me personally is fluff related, so I expect some to scoff at this. The bolt pistol of an apothecary is, amongst other things, for delivering the Emperer's grace to wounded Space Marines to ease their passing. Now imagine the conversation if you have just 'upgraded' him to a different weapon.

"My dear brother you are mortally wounded, I will deliver the grace of the Emperer and you will live on in myth and legend"

"Make it quick brother apothecary, one shot, may the Emperer guide me"

"Actually I have a grav gun now, so you sit there while I crush you to death inside your own armour."

"You what?... arrrggghhhh!!!!!!"

Uh. So what did you do in 6th Ed where Apothecaries actually traded their Bolt pistol for the narthecium?

The apothecary in the RWCS IS a Black Knight though lol. The Dark Angels don't just let anyone join the Black Knights. Also, he's got the plasma talon loadout on his bike. Again, Black Knight exclusive wargear.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
The apothecary in the RWCS IS a Black Knight though lol. The Dark Angels don't just let anyone join the Black Knights. Also, he's got the plasma talon loadout on his bike. Again, Black Knight exclusive wargear.

You're once again making up rules that do not exist "lol."

 angelofvengeance wrote:
The apothecary in the RWCS IS a Black Knight though lol. The Dark Angels don't just let anyone join the Black Knights. Also, he's got the plasma talon loadout on his bike. Again, Black Knight exclusive wargear.

Do you have any rules support for that statement? Because I'm looking at the Ravenwing Command Squad datasheet and Ravenwing Apothecary and Ravenwing Black Knight are two different profiles.

i.e. The Ravenwing Apothecary is not a Ravenwing Black Knight at all so far as the rules are concerned.

If he's not a Black Knight, then why give him the Plasma Talons in his wargear in the first place?! lol. Even the fething heraldry on his model says he is a Black Knight.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
If he's not a Black Knight, then why give him the Plasma Talons in his wargear in the first place?! lol. Even the fething heraldry on his model says he is a Black Knight.

If a teacher is promoted to headmaster, are they still a teacher? No, although they remain part of the school staff.

If a Ravenwing Black Knight is upgraded to the Ravenwing Apothecary he is no longer a Ravenwing Black Knight, although he remains part of the Ravenwing Command Squad.

Does the headmaster lose his teaching certificate as a result of his promotion? No, but that still doesn't make him a teacher.

What's on the model means nothing in the rules, unless the rules say so (such as Red Scorpions Veteran Sergeants upgraded to carry Narthecia).

Except we're not talking about teachers lol. We're talking about 40K. He IS a BLACK KNIGHT lol.

Bugger it. I'm done here.

text removed.

Reds8n


Since using a swear word repeatedly is enough to get a text completely removed, now without any swear words from my end:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
If he's not a Black Knight, then why give him the Plasma Talons in his wargear in the first place?! lol. Even the fething heraldry on his model says he is a Black Knight.

a) In a unit of Ravenwing Command Squad, any model gets a Bolt pistol, Plasma talon, Corvus hammer, Krak & Frag grenades and a Teleport homer by default. That's what the datasheet says.
b) Artwork isn't rules. Rules are rules.

The very first tenet of YMDC reads as follows:

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.

So please at least take a look at your rule books before you make false claims over and over again - even though at least one mod doesn't care, it would be polite, helpful and constructive.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Except we're not talking about teachers lol. We're talking about 40K. He IS a BLACK KNIGHT lol.

In the background, perhaps. In the rules the models have completely different profiles.

Do you understand the meaning of the word 'different'? It means 'not the same'.

Bugger it. I'm done here.

Good riddance.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
If he's not a Black Knight, then why give him the Plasma Talons in his wargear in the first place?! lol. Even the fething heraldry on his model says he is a Black Knight.

The problem with this is that I could give a Genestealer, Guardsman, Tau Battlesuit, etc an Iron Hands logo. Does that make them part of that chapter (rules wise)? Of course not!
Hell, I could paint a marine green but play him as any chapter I like, he doesn't have to be a Salamander. The model is only important for WYSIWYG/(acceptable) counts-as, ideally. (I'm not going to go into proxies and such- that's for your own group to decide)


Now, something I'm wondering (not directed at any one person).
Would you bat an eye at a Space Marine HQ in Terminator Armour riding a bike? I imagine you would. (this is relevant, give it a minute)
I believe you can't give anything to an Apoth because it becomes an illegal model (he's not a Vet any more). Basically, I need to check it's a legal model at the end of building my list.
If you don't check the legality, the following problems arise:

1. I can take a Space Marine HQ on a bike with TDA. How? Because you can't take a bike with TDA equipped, so I'll take the bike first, then upgrade to the TDA.
2. Since I don't need to check the legality of any model, and therefore the list, I could take bike troops and then decide to cross out my HQ on a bike. Those bikes shouldn't be troops any more, but when I purchased them they could have been. Do I keep them as troops, since I don't need to check legality again.

 Ond Angel wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
If he's not a Black Knight, then why give him the Plasma Talons in his wargear in the first place?! lol. Even the fething heraldry on his model says he is a Black Knight.

The problem with this is that I could give a Genestealer, Guardsman, Tau Battlesuit, etc an Iron Hands logo. Does that make them part of that chapter (rules wise)? Of course not!
Hell, I could paint a marine green but play him as any chapter I like, he doesn't have to be a Salamander. The model is only important for WYSIWYG/(acceptable) counts-as, ideally. (I'm not going to go into proxies and such- that's for your own group to decide)


Now, something I'm wondering (not directed at any one person).
Would you bat an eye at a Space Marine HQ in Terminator Armour riding a bike? I imagine you would. (this is relevant, give it a minute)
I believe you can't give anything to an Apoth because it becomes an illegal model (he's not a Vet any more). Basically, I need to check it's a legal model at the end of building my list.
If you don't check the legality, the following problems arise:

1. I can take a Space Marine HQ on a bike with TDA. How? Because you can't take a bike with TDA equipped, so I'll take the bike first, then upgrade to the TDA.
2. Since I don't need to check the legality of any model, and therefore the list, I could take bike troops and then decide to cross out my HQ on a bike. Those bikes shouldn't be troops any more, but when I purchased them they could have been. Do I keep them as troops, since I don't need to check legality again.

Specifically says you can't take bikes when you have tda. I personally am a fan of the all apothecaries are veterans but not all veterans are apothecaries.

greytalon666 wrote:
Specifically says you can't take bikes when you have tda. I personally am a fan of the all apothecaries are veterans but not all veterans are apothecaries.

But that's his point; at the time of taking the upgrade he hasn't chosen Terminator Armour yet.

Indeed, this is strengthened further by the argument that the list order makes a difference, as taking Special Issue Wargear comes before taking Terminator Armour.

And the statement, "May not be taken by models in Terminator Armour" could be argued to be a parallel to "Any Veteran may..." where an Apothecary is distinct from a Veteran.

greytalon666 wrote:

Specifically says you can't take bikes when you have tda. I personally am a fan of the all apothecaries are veterans but not all veterans are apothecaries.

I'm aware, which is why I pointed out that you could take the bike first and then the TDA. You can't take a bike if you have TDA, but you can take TDA while on a bike. As long as I don't check the legality afterwards, that is.

 Ond Angel wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:

Specifically says you can't take bikes when you have tda. I personally am a fan of the all apothecaries are veterans but not all veterans are apothecaries.

I'm aware, which is why I pointed out that you could take the bike first and then the TDA. You can't take a bike if you have TDA, but you can take TDA while on a bike. As long as I don't check the legality afterwards, that is.

It is only illegal because it specifically says so.

greytalon666 wrote:

 Ond Angel wrote:

greytalon666 wrote:

Specifically says you can't take bikes when you have tda. I personally am a fan of the all apothecaries are veterans but not all veterans are apothecaries.

I'm aware, which is why I pointed out that you could take the bike first and then the TDA. You can't take a bike if you have TDA, but you can take TDA while on a bike. As long as I don't check the legality afterwards, that is.

It is only illegal because it specifically says so.

No, it is illegal to take a bike if you have terminator armour. It is not illegal to take terminator armour if you have a bike.

 Happyjew wrote:
No, it is illegal to take a bike if you have terminator armour. It is not illegal to take terminator armour if you have a bike.

Which you necessarily must if we're following the argument that the list is some kind of ordered sequence, as a Space Marine Bike (and Jump Pack, for that matter) are both Special Issue Wargear, which comes before the option to replace items with Terminator Armour.

Which heavily suggests the list is not in any kind of ordered sequence and indeed we must look at the end model to determine whether upgrades are legal once all is said and done. Making Apothecaries with Veteran-allowed equipment illegal.

Looking at the captain datasheet, you'll notice that for the options, it says captain or chapter master. If a chapter master was still a captain, why did they bother wording it this way? Since it does say captain OR chapter master, they are distinguishing the both of them to make it clear that they are not the same.

This follows too for sgts and vsgts.

Same thing for the veterans and apothecary. It says veterans instead of veterans or apothecary. If they wanted to allow veterans OR apothecaries to be able to take options, they would have stated it, or using language like how it's stated for taking bikes for the command squad. Therefore, to sum it up, I propose that as written, it seems to support the notion that apothecaries cannot take additional options.

Ghost_Raptur wrote:
Looking at the captain datasheet, you'll notice that for the options, it says captain or chapter master. If a chapter master was still a captain, why did they bother wording it this way? Otherwise, what is being implied here is that if it only read "a captain may", then taking the options first then upgrading to the chapter master would be legal and equate to the current wording. Since it does say captain OR chapter master, it is made very clear, that upgrading does not affect weapon and equipment options.

Errr, what? This actually supports the complete opposite of what you're claiming, that Veteran options are not available to the Apothecary because the options don't mention the Apothecary at all.

Was trying to convey that apothecary getting weapons due to absence rather than presence doesn't seem supported going by captain example. Removed that line from original post for clarity.

I still don't really understand what you're saying. You're claiming that upgrading doesn't affect the unit's listed options but the fact it says "Captain or Chapter Master" for the Captain datasheet, and it doesn't say "Veteran or Apothecary/Company Champion" for the Command Squad datasheet, suggests heavily that upgrading one model to another model profile does affect what options they have.

If upgrading from a Captain to Chapter Master didn't affect the options available (i.e. the options available to a Captain aren't affected by upgading him to a Chapter Master) then the Captain datasheet wouldn't need to specify Chapter Master as well. But it does.

Maybe you've mis-posted what you meant? I'm just a little confused by how you've worded it whether you're agreeing or disagreeing

Haha, I appreciate the feedback Mr. Shine Edited one more time. Hopefully all is clear on my stance now.

After reading arguments for and against, I have been convinced that apothecaries cannot have their weapons upgraded and will not be doing so in my army. Thank you all for your help