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Does anyone read the post?

I never said they were OP. I said they were boring. Because their counters are so niche and there are so few of them, but where they do exist they can easily destroy the SH, it simply becomes a check of "did I remember my Haywire/Suicide Melta squad/D weapon/Whatever?" if yes, then I kill the SH in a single round and my opponent stands no chance because a quarter of their army is gone. If no, it gets to rampage through double its points value and single handedly win.

There's no other options like you have with vehicles/MCs/infantry/etc. You can't impede them, or tarpit them, or disable them. You just delete them, or they delete you, and that sucks.

Yes, I read your post. First you were unhappy you couldn't whittle the thing down and watch it shrink in threat turn by turn. Now it's some sort of false dichotomy where turn 1 decides the game.

It's how you think about the challenge and measure the reward not the super heavy. Try figuring out how to handle it without a one trick pony like the unfluffy Suicide Sternguard squad. There's your challenge to enjoy.

I've got a regular at my local GW who says SH's are boring for about the same reaon as you do. According to him super-heavies are boring because they are very durable (meanwhile, he's got 3 Riptides, oh the irony).

It's just an stereotype that superheavies are almost uncrackable durable, when really they're not. You don't get to one-shot my 500+ pts model (I know a WK doesn't cost as much, it's just an example) with a lucky melta shot, but hey what DID you expect?
SH counters are not niche or few, they're the same thing you would use to deal with a regular MC/vehicle. Earlier named regular complains a lot about IK and how he can't deal with them (again, 3 riptides and probably 3-9 missile broadsides). But really, if you can't deal with a single IK, you probably couldn't deal with any list that relies on vehicles unless you're relying on "that lucky pen".

The wraithknight is just about the only SH I know of that's worth its points aside from an IK and FW stuff.
Yeah I guess facing 3 is not fun, but who brings 3 super heavies to a regular game? That means he brought 3 FoC's just to field those WK's.
Unless I was informed in advance I'd be facing something like that, I would not play a list like that. Even if I was informed, I'd be reluctant to play unless it was a 3.000Pts or above battle.

My house rules include

+100 points on the wraithknight
Poison and sniper weapons work normally on gargantuans
Superheavy vehicles take damage from the damage chart, but ignore crew shaken and stunned and move half speed if immobilized.
StrD weapons do d3+3 wounds or hullpoints instead of d6+6.

That actually let's them have drawbacks.

If a "balanced TAC" list cannot handle an certain type of army, it is neither "balanced" nor "TAC".

And yes, the comparison between killing a Leman Russ and kill a Knight is spot on, because if you can kill one, you can kill the other. But if you can't kill one, then you can't really kill anything "tough", now can you?

As to "boring", I'm not sure it means what you think it means. Playing against a static gun line is frustrating for the opponent, and boring for the player if the player doesn't enjoy feeding off the their opponent's frustration. I'm pretty sure when you guys are saying "boring", you mean that you do not enjoy the change in the game dynamic. There is nothing boring about losing your 500pt tank on turn two, just like there is nothing boring about seeing a 500pt tank sitting right there in the rail gun range of all four of your Riptides.

You want a boring game? Watch Orks versus Tyranids. The only thing exciting about that is figuring out if you are going to roll all the dice at once or in two large groups.

A Knight army is one of two things: a target rich environment if you brought appropriate anti-tank, or it's a wall of frustration because you are still playing 5th with 7th Ed rules.

Do you know what it is you need to re-balance the entire game? Stop playing on Planet Bowling Ball! Start using appropriate terrain. A Knight army is stalled when it has to circumnavigate the table just to get line of sight, while you get to close with out fear of the sky falling. Proper terrain stops list abuse, mitigates formations of formations, and cranks 11 back down to a 5 or 6.

You want less "boring"? Play with more trees!

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If a "balanced TAC" list cannot handle an certain type of army, it is neither "balanced" nor "TAC".

And yes, the comparison between killing a Leman Russ and kill a Knight are spot on, because if you can kill one, you can kill the other. But if you can't kill one, then you can't really kill anything "tough", now can you?

SJ

But can you kill 3 knights or 9 lemons.

You certainly can kill 9 lemons in CC since rear armor is generally 10. so your entire army (assuming with kraks) are not totally worthless.
3 knights you are boned.

(Im eluding to the fact that by taking a knight only list. you are 100% nullifying anything ST5 (rear armor was 12 right?) or less which is the majority of basic arms.)

the_scotsman wrote:
Does anyone read the post?

I never said they were OP. I said they were boring. Because their counters are so niche and there are so few of them, but where they do exist they can easily destroy the SH, it simply becomes a check of "did I remember my Haywire/Suicide Melta squad/D weapon/Whatever?" if yes, then I kill the SH in a single round and my opponent stands no chance because a quarter of their army is gone. If no, it gets to rampage through double its points value and single handedly win.

There's no other options like you have with vehicles/MCs/infantry/etc. You can't impede them, or tarpit them, or disable them. You just delete them, or they delete you, and that sucks.

I'd like to keep the rules, but like has been said before, only at 2000+, and only one of them. Mainly so I can bring Comissar Yarrick in Fortress of Arrogance.

DaPino wrote:
It's just an stereotype that superheavies are almost uncrackable durable, when really they're not. You don't get to one-shot my 500+ pts model (I know a WK doesn't cost as much, it's just an example) with a lucky melta shot, but hey what DID you expect?

Exactly. Superheavies are essentially "eternal warrior vehicles". And most are costed as such.

If your concern is not being able to reduce their effectiveness gradually, then how do you feel about normal MCs? They keep going with no ill effects until you take away that last wound. And if your concern is "well they either die T1 or just keep going", then welcome to the new 7th edition; because D-scythes, grav, and fire dragons do just the same and worse to normal vehicles and MCs. The difference is that with an eternal warrior vehicle you sometimes get to play with it for more than one turn.

My point is, if I brought an ork list with a MANz bomb, 2 Trukk boyz squads with power Klaws, a full line of Kustom Mega Cannons, 3 Killa Kanz, and a Deff Dread, I can handle any number of Leman Russes.

I can handle zero Knights, because they are largely immune to normal melee.

Normal MC's, I have several options. They can be tarpitted by weaker melee, attacked with hidden special weapons, and instant-deathed by force weapons and the like.

If they had figured out some way to actually have power scale up steadily before crapping them into the game, maybe this could have worked. But no, they decided "this line, right here. 300 points. That's the point where ANYTHING above or at this line gets to kill ANYTHING below this line with zero effort."

 Desubot wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If a "balanced TAC" list cannot handle an certain type of army, it is neither "balanced" nor "TAC".

And yes, the comparison between killing a Leman Russ and kill a Knight are spot on, because if you can kill one, you can kill the other. But if you can't kill one, then you can't really kill anything "tough", now can you?

SJ

But can you kill 3 knights or 9 lemons.

You certainly can kill 9 lemons in CC since rear armor is generally 10. so your entire army (assuming with kraks) are not totally worthless.
3 knights you are boned.

(Im eluding to the fact that by taking a knight only list. you are 100% nullifying anything ST5 (rear armor was 12 right?) or less which is the majority of basic arms.)

Since when are Knights good at killing Flyers? Their Stormspear Rocket Launcher has a higher chance of killing a Flyer than their Icarus Autocannon. Drop Pod Meltas are still a thing. Scouting Meltas are still a thing. Ever heard of Grav weapons? Tar Pitting it in melee is still a thing. Lots of Gauss, lots of Haywire, lots of Arc weapons out their. Hell, my Grey Knights have Psycannons, Hammers, and the occasional Vortex of Doom. Eldar can scat and spat them with easy. Deldar have lances all day, every day.

About the only army that might have issues are .... none?

SJ

I would only use drop pod meltas if I were list tailoring. In a normal situation, my typical lists have no chance against super heavies. There's too many lists where drop pod melta is worthless and throwing marines away is even worse. Super heavies, like MC spam, are something very hard to deal with without list tailor because you will run out of resources very quickly.

I play pure Grey Knights, and I don't fear the reaper.

SJ

I'm kind of in the same rut, lately a guy has been bringing a scout titan to 2000 pt games. From my perspective that's going to be a hassle seeing as I take a CC army and don't take to many big guns. Besides a devastator squad and a few tanks. I'm not to keen on the idea of just making a list that revolves around taking down a titan when the game should just be fun at such a low point game and not so competitive, it just takes the fun out of it for me.

 system seven wrote:
II'm not to keen on the idea of just making a list that revolves around taking down a titan when the game should just be fun at such a low point game and not so competitive, it just takes the fun out of it for me.

Playing with titans is fun.

Dark lances, lol.

.66 hits, .33 HPs, .15 through the shield. .1 through FNP if it's a wraithknight in toe-in.

I'll just bring 14 Ravagers to my next game against a knight, kill them no problem with my dark lances. (Math is exactly the same for Lascannons. Can we stop saying high-strength low AP weapons that rely on the vehicle damage chart for their effectiveness are anti-SH weapons now?)

And yeah, I mean tarpitting them in melee is a thing, right? It only kills 15 ork boyz a close combat round on average, so with a max sized squad of 30 boyz I can delay it for, let's see, one turn. That should be plenty.

Because knights exist, to create a TAC list you just need to include no S5 or lower.

we play at 3k and 1 SH is fine. I agree with 25% being reasonable. But we allow the Lord of skulls and such in 3k games just no 1k+ models.

Honestly facing an army of IK is never fun even at that point level because you either win HUGE or lose HUGE.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
They only suck the fun out of the game because your expectations are still set on older editions of the game. 40k's moved on to newer, bigger expectations.

Some of us have been waiting patiently for over 2 decades to field Knight Titans and their ilk in regular games, to bring the superheavy tanks we've lovingly built and painted to the gaming table outside of the once or twice a year Apocalypse events. It's a part of the hobby, an old missing part that's here at last.

So, if this aspect of the game is sucking the fun out of it for you, it's you, not the hobby.

SJ

WE are the hobby. WE all don't like the same things. Shocking, I know!

The great thing about 40k is that you can play skirmish/KillTeam, Apocalypse games, and everything in between. You can play one of a dozen armies, mix in allies, and sprinkle with Super Heavies.

OR, you can agree to play a game without Superheavies.

You don't have to play me, and I don't have to play you, and WE are still both enjoying the same hobby!

Isn't that great!?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If a "balanced TAC" list cannot handle an certain type of army, it is neither "balanced" nor "TAC".

And yes, the comparison between killing a Leman Russ and kill a Knight are spot on, because if you can kill one, you can kill the other. But if you can't kill one, then you can't really kill anything "tough", now can you?

SJ

But can you kill 3 knights or 9 lemons.

You certainly can kill 9 lemons in CC since rear armor is generally 10. so your entire army (assuming with kraks) are not totally worthless.
3 knights you are boned.

(Im eluding to the fact that by taking a knight only list. you are 100% nullifying anything ST5 (rear armor was 12 right?) or less which is the majority of basic arms.)

Since when are Knights good at killing Flyers? Their Stormspear Rocket Launcher has a higher chance of killing a Flyer than their Icarus Autocannon. Drop Pod Meltas are still a thing. Scouting Meltas are still a thing. Ever heard of Grav weapons? Tar Pitting it in melee is still a thing. Lots of Gauss, lots of Haywire, lots of Arc weapons out their. Hell, my Grey Knights have Psycannons, Hammers, and the occasional Vortex of Doom. Eldar can scat and spat them with easy. Deldar have lances all day, every day.

About the only army that might have issues are .... none?

SJ

And what does that have to do with what i was saying about the Rest of your army getting nullified? it screws non St6 shooting attacks and non St7+ Melee.

 Desubot wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If a "balanced TAC" list cannot handle an certain type of army, it is neither "balanced" nor "TAC".

And yes, the comparison between killing a Leman Russ and kill a Knight are spot on, because if you can kill one, you can kill the other. But if you can't kill one, then you can't really kill anything "tough", now can you?

SJ

But can you kill 3 knights or 9 lemons.

You certainly can kill 9 lemons in CC since rear armor is generally 10. so your entire army (assuming with kraks) are not totally worthless.
3 knights you are boned.

(Im eluding to the fact that by taking a knight only list. you are 100% nullifying anything ST5 (rear armor was 12 right?) or less which is the majority of basic arms.)

Since when are Knights good at killing Flyers? Their Stormspear Rocket Launcher has a higher chance of killing a Flyer than their Icarus Autocannon. Drop Pod Meltas are still a thing. Scouting Meltas are still a thing. Ever heard of Grav weapons? Tar Pitting it in melee is still a thing. Lots of Gauss, lots of Haywire, lots of Arc weapons out their. Hell, my Grey Knights have Psycannons, Hammers, and the occasional Vortex of Doom. Eldar can scat and spat them with easy. Deldar have lances all day, every day.

About the only army that might have issues are .... none?

SJ

And what does that have to do with what i was saying about the Rest of your army getting nullified? it screws non St6 shooting attacks and non St7+ Melee.

I'm guessing you don't play Maelstrom, either? You know, that part of the game high point cost units suck at, while multiple small units thrive at?

No Marlstrom and playing on Planet Bowling Ball, no wonder the game sucks for you!

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If a "balanced TAC" list cannot handle an certain type of army, it is neither "balanced" nor "TAC".

And yes, the comparison between killing a Leman Russ and kill a Knight are spot on, because if you can kill one, you can kill the other. But if you can't kill one, then you can't really kill anything "tough", now can you?

SJ

But can you kill 3 knights or 9 lemons.

You certainly can kill 9 lemons in CC since rear armor is generally 10. so your entire army (assuming with kraks) are not totally worthless.
3 knights you are boned.

(Im eluding to the fact that by taking a knight only list. you are 100% nullifying anything ST5 (rear armor was 12 right?) or less which is the majority of basic arms.)

Since when are Knights good at killing Flyers? Their Stormspear Rocket Launcher has a higher chance of killing a Flyer than their Icarus Autocannon. Drop Pod Meltas are still a thing. Scouting Meltas are still a thing. Ever heard of Grav weapons? Tar Pitting it in melee is still a thing. Lots of Gauss, lots of Haywire, lots of Arc weapons out their. Hell, my Grey Knights have Psycannons, Hammers, and the occasional Vortex of Doom. Eldar can scat and spat them with easy. Deldar have lances all day, every day.

About the only army that might have issues are .... none?

SJ

And what does that have to do with what i was saying about the Rest of your army getting nullified? it screws non St6 shooting attacks and non St7+ Melee.

I'm guessing you don't play Maelstrom, either? You know, that part of the game high point cost units suck at, while multiple small units thrive at?

No Marlstrom and playing on Planet Bowling Ball, no wonder the game sucks for you!

SJ

And it still sucks that you brought 70% of your army to just sit there and take it up the gak. what kind of win is that?

Im mean as per the topic of this thread to make the game with superheavys fun.

Unless you are saying an endurance test is...fun?

How to spot an internet troll:

Step 1: Begins the argument with a logical fallacy and Ad Hominem attack as his thesis

"A Knight is exactly the same thing as 2 Leman Russes. You are a failure as a player."

2: when people respond attacking his thesis, completely ignores those arguments and instead changes the thesis.

"A knight is not two Leman Russes. Many weapons that work great against Leman Russes are worse or entirely useless against a knight."

"Every army has a counter to a knight! I play Grey Knights and we have tools to beat knights so everyone does! Just shoot it with dark lances!"

3: When not responding to any counter-arguments becomes awkward, carries on a little conversation with the more easily beaten opponent who exists only in his head.

"A full knight army makes all S5 or lower weaponry worthless, which makes playing against them incredibly boring."

"You aren't using any terrain? LOL. and not playing maelstrom missions, L2P scrub."


I think now that we've reached step 3, we can just safely shut the thread down. Thoughts?

All I have to ask is how do I know when to load up melta pods? How many melta pods? Realize that a BA melta pod only has about a 50% chance of cracking a RHINO. That's why I stopped using them.

What about pods with BA tacs w/heavy flamers? Those seem good, but are useless against super heavies.

Martel732 wrote:
All I have to ask is how do I know when to load up melta pods? How many melta pods? Realize that a BA melta pod only has about a 50% chance of cracking a RHINO. That's why I stopped using them.

What about pods with BA tacs w/heavy flamers? Those seem good, but are useless against super heavies.

But, but....Grey Knights can do it, so can you!

Solo 2016

Call me a troll all you want, at least I'm having fun with the game. Nothing boring, here. Superheavies are neutered versus decent terrain and objective based missions. My opponent brings a Warhound to a 1500 point game? I happily accept the game an precede to demonstrate why bring such a points sink to the table was not in their best interest while encouraging them to be active in the game. Neither of us will have a feels badsies, and both of us will have a good time doing epic things.

You might want to stop limiting your experience, and open up to the current hobby.

SJ

Martel732 wrote:
All I have to ask is how do I know when to load up melta pods? How many melta pods? Realize that a BA melta pod only has about a 50% chance of cracking a RHINO. That's why I stopped using them.

What about pods with BA tacs w/heavy flamers? Those seem good, but are useless against super heavies.

My general rule of thumb for knight popping is you need 2x squads with melta equivalent or haywire equivalent in position on two different sides. Otherwise, don't try to kill it at all.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All I have to ask is how do I know when to load up melta pods? How many melta pods? Realize that a BA melta pod only has about a 50% chance of cracking a RHINO. That's why I stopped using them.

What about pods with BA tacs w/heavy flamers? Those seem good, but are useless against super heavies.

My general rule of thumb for knight popping is you need 2x squads with melta equivalent or haywire equivalent in position on two different sides. Otherwise, don't try to kill it at all.

The only problem is that 2X or 3X melta pods looks dumb against say, Tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Call me a troll all you want, at least I'm having fun with the game. Nothing boring, here. Superheavies are neutered versus decent terrain and objective based missions. My opponent brings a Warhound to a 1500 point game? I happily accept the game an precede to demonstrate why bring such a points sink to the table was not in their best interest while encouraging them to be active in the game. Neither of us will have a feels badsies, and both of us will have a good time doing epic things.

You might want to stop limiting your experience, and open up to the current hobby.

SJ

Not giving GW any more money. If that's what you mean by "opening up to the hobby". I'm not into pay-to-win

Martel732 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All I have to ask is how do I know when to load up melta pods? How many melta pods? Realize that a BA melta pod only has about a 50% chance of cracking a RHINO. That's why I stopped using them.

What about pods with BA tacs w/heavy flamers? Those seem good, but are useless against super heavies.

My general rule of thumb for knight popping is you need 2x squads with melta equivalent or haywire equivalent in position on two different sides. Otherwise, don't try to kill it at all.

The only problem is that 2X or 3X melta pods looks dumb against say, Tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Call me a troll all you want, at least I'm having fun with the game. Nothing boring, here. Superheavies are neutered versus decent terrain and objective based missions. My opponent brings a Warhound to a 1500 point game? I happily accept the game an precede to demonstrate why bring such a points sink to the table was not in their best interest while encouraging them to be active in the game. Neither of us will have a feels badsies, and both of us will have a good time doing epic things.

You might want to stop limiting your experience, and open up to the current hobby.

SJ

Not giving GW any more money. If that's what you mean by "opening up to the hobby". I'm not into pay-to-win

2x, with a flamer pod you can swap in vs a swarmier army.

Meltas aren't great vs Nids but they can be used. They instant-death warriors, wound monstrous critters, etc. They can make up their 10 points.

Martel732 wrote:
All I have to ask is how do I know when to load up melta pods? How many melta pods? Realize that a BA melta pod only has about a 50% chance of cracking a RHINO. That's why I stopped using them.

What about pods with BA tacs w/heavy flamers? Those seem good, but are useless against super heavies.

I don't play BA but I think my base would be 2 5 man tacs in drop pods with HF/combi flamer and 2-3 AS in pods with tripple melta. I can't imagine those units having any issue getting their points back.

2 sucide assault squads
6 meltas into the knight- only 3 are gonna be getting saves at all. Pretty good chance to kill it with a 2x- 135 point squads. If it's not dead it's hurting - now hit it with some lazcannons till it dies.

the_scotsman wrote:
My point is, if I brought an ork list with a MANz bomb, 2 Trukk boyz squads with power Klaws, a full line of Kustom Mega Cannons, 3 Killa Kanz, and a Deff Dread, I can handle any number of Leman Russes.

I can handle zero Knights, because they are largely immune to normal melee.

Normal MC's, I have several options. They can be tarpitted by weaker melee, attacked with hidden special weapons, and instant-deathed by force weapons and the like.

If they had figured out some way to actually have power scale up steadily before crapping them into the game, maybe this could have worked. But no, they decided "this line, right here. 300 points. That's the point where ANYTHING above or at this line gets to kill ANYTHING below this line with zero effort."

Well... you're right, but you're making a very bad comparisson. Of course power claws are going to be good vs leman russ's, they have no close-combat capabilities.
However, what about a bunch of other walkers? They deal with 3 SW dreadnoughts with frost axe/shields? Maybe, maybe not but either way they're going to be more of a challenge than leman russ's will in close combat.
And let's be honest. What you listed is not even close in points to a knight or 3 dreadnoughts. It's going to be close to 2 times the points. Of course 700+ points of anti-tank unit is going to kill rougly 370 points of vehicle.

How about I back those 3 dreadnoughts up with a vindicator and a pack of 4 thunderwolves w/ power mauls and stormshields. (or if you really want to keep it within the scope of vehicles 2 vindicators and 2 whirlwinds).
I'm just going to take an educated guess and say that's going to put some hurt on you and you're not going to be able to deal with all those either.

If you kill a unit, the damage potential goes down, that's not the case with super-heavies and they're tough to boot (altough not nearly as tough as people make them out to be), I get that. But there's a lot of units that are not superheavies that'll give you the same problem (e.g. riptides and NDKs). On top of that, the damage output of most superheavies really isn't that high.

The point is, you can't deal with a knight, but you can't deal with a lot of other stuff either and that's really not the knight's fault, is it?

By "opening up to the current hobby", I meant embracing the new additions to the rules rather than limiting the some you don't like. Personally, I am huge proponent of voting with your wallet. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you do like it, support it.

If you are finding aspects of the game frustrating, maybe you should embrace those aspects rather than limit them? Superheavies are surprisingly easy to handle when you don't fear them. Maelstrom is the great equalizer. Terrain is the great balancer. Mysterious Objectives can add new dimensions to the game.

Embrace the hobby, or stop supporting it.

SJ