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So, I started thinking one day, and ended up at the conclusion that Immortals are kinda stupid in comparison to other things. I'm sure other people have noticed this.

A Space Marine is, what, 13-14 points? WS/BS/S/T4 LD8 I4 A1 Sv3+
They come with more wargear, and have options and such. And their special rules are ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics.

ATSKNF is nice, and Chapter Tactics usually gives them a cool rule, mainly some kind of reroll.

Now to give one of these guys a Heavy Bolter, it's usually, what, 10 points? So they get 36" (Or whatever the range is) S5 AP4 Heavy 3. That makes them 23-24 points for that model. So a squad of Devastators is around 95-100 points for 4 dudes with Heavy Bolters. That's 12 S5 AP4 shots at ~36" range, but they can't really move.


Then you have Necron Immortals. Similar statline, less Initiative, but LD10. No protection from Sweeping or rerolls from chapter tactics, but has Better-than-FNP.

Then their gun. 24" S5 SP4 Rapid-Fire, Gauss. So, a similar statline as a Heavy Bolter. Yeah, they only get one shot at less range, but they're troops that are toting Rapid-Fire Heavy Bolters, can move around freely and shoot Land Raiders off the table. Sure, it's 170 points to get 10 shots at 24", but that's 20 shots at 12". There are some differences, but jesus.

And these guys are only 17 points a model. More durable, and more mobile than 5 Devastators.

This was just an interesting thought I had recently, it's not really important or anything, but I'm honestly surprised to not hear more people complaining about Immortals. They seem pretty ridiculous when compared to other similar units.

Reanimation protocole? All weapon can dmg high armors, they get +1 BS near the walker thing, ghostark, even more... Im a Nid player and trust me facing necrons is a pain...

alex0911 wrote:
Reanimation protocole? All weapon can dmg high armors, they get +1 BS near the walker thing, ghostark, even more... Im a Nid player and trust me facing necrons is a pain...

Well, I know Necrons are a pain, but I'm just curious why I don't hear more complaining about Immortals. They seem too good almost.

I don't mind Immortals because for three points more I can turn them into Jetbikes.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I don't mind Immortals because for three points more I can turn them into Jetbikes.

Well yeah, and that's a whole other argument there. I've come to realize that Tomb Blades are probably overall better than Scatriders.

Well i guess its only because ghost ark and wraiths are even better !

alex0911 wrote:
Well i guess its only because ghost ark and wraiths are even better !

Ghost Arks aren't that amazing. They are annoying for Nids to deal with sometimes, but otherwise, shoot them and they splode.

In the old book they were one of my favourite units, but nowadays they just arent as good as some of the other, much nastier stuff, they are still a solid unit but they are usually seen as a tax now to get into a Decurion, though not a bad tax, a tax all the same.

I mean Tomb Blades are cheap enough now that to buy 5 Immortals rather than 10 means you can get nearly 4 extra Tomb Blades fully kitted out for the same cost in points, which do the same thing just better because of their higher Toughness, Mobility and the fact that they can ignore cover too.

Well, never underestimate ATSKNF. You don't realise how many little things you flat-out ignore because of that one rule.

 -Shrike- wrote:
Well, never underestimate ATSKNF. You don't realise how many little things you flat-out ignore because of that one rule.

Well yeah, it's an annoying rule. Doesn't help too much with Heavy Bolters, though.

Immortals are nicely pointed if not in a decurion. They have no extra weapon options and ATSKNF is a big deal. The reason they win out in the comparison with HB marines is that HBs cost 5pts too much and marines imo are a pt too expensive. If a HB marine cost 18pts then they would be about even. It's not that Immortals are too cheap, it is that marines (and HBs) are too expensive. Look at a warrior for example, for 4 pts you add 1 st and 1 ap to the gun and change their save from a 4+ to a 3+ and immediatly they are an immortal. I think 4pts is bang on there and nobody complains about non-decurion warriors.

Tomb blades are too cheap in comparison. Like silly cheap.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Immortals are nicely pointed if not in a decurion. They have no extra weapon options and ATSKNF is a big deal. The reason they win out in the comparison with HB marines is that HBs cost 5pts too much and marines imo are a pt too expensive. If a HB marine cost 18pts then they would be about even. It's not that Immortals are too cheap, it is that marines (and HBs) are too expensive. Look at a warrior for example, for 4 pts you add 1 st and 1 ap to the gun and change their save from a 4+ to a 3+ and immediatly they are an immortal. I think 4pts is bang on there and nobody complains about non-decurion warriors.

Tomb blades are too cheap in comparison. Like silly cheap.

Base I don't think they're too cheap. Their upgrades could've been a little more expensive than they are though....

The heavy bolter dudes get doctrines.

Alcibiades wrote:
The heavy bolter dudes get doctrines.

Which are essentially just rerolls, right?

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The heavy bolter dudes get doctrines.

Which are essentially just rerolls, right?

They get Chapter Tactics, a pistol, grenades, signum, and the option to have extra re-rolls (and a sergeant with CCW options). I really don't see the problem with Warriors or Immortals compared to Tactical Marines; Heavy Bolters in a Devastator squad are slightly too expensive, but that doesn't mean that Immortals are overpowered.

As a side note, here's what the Chapter Tactics will do to a Devastator Squad:
Ultramarines: Re-roll rolls to hit in one shooting phase. Presumably what you're thinking of.
White Scars, Black Templars, Raven Guard: Nothing really relevant/useful.
Imperial Fists: Tank Hunters, re-roll armour penetration against buildings, +1 to building damage table. This is very good.
Salamanders: A bunch of rules revolving around flame weapons. Situational.
Iron Hands: FNP (6+), sergeant gets IWND. Pretty good.

 -Shrike- wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The heavy bolter dudes get doctrines.

Which are essentially just rerolls, right?

They get Chapter Tactics, a pistol, grenades, signum, and the option to have extra re-rolls (and a sergeant with CCW options). I really don't see the problem with Warriors or Immortals compared to Tactical Marines; Heavy Bolters in a Devastator squad are slightly too expensive, but that doesn't mean that Immortals are overpowered.

As a side note, here's what the Chapter Tactics will do to a Devastator Squad:
Ultramarines: Re-roll rolls to hit in one shooting phase. Presumably what you're thinking of.
White Scars, Black Templars, Raven Guard: Nothing really relevant/useful.
Imperial Fists: Tank Hunters, re-roll armour penetration against buildings, +1 to building damage table. This is very good.
Salamanders: A bunch of rules revolving around flame weapons. Situational.
Iron Hands: FNP (6+), sergeant gets IWND. Pretty good.

I don't think their over powered, I just think they're a bit too cheap for the weapon they're carrying around plus their durability.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The heavy bolter dudes get doctrines.

Which are essentially just rerolls, right?

But those are not useless, they also increase firing power.

Anyway, the thing with Necrons is, they don't have a lot of anti-tank weapons, at least not in the sense other armies have them. Crons can't tote around special guns per X models. Instead of bringing 1 very good gun in a squad of average guns, they bring slightly above average guns on all models.
I can only speak for myself, but I rarely get immortals within 12" range of something without a night scythe.

You also have to realize that Crons rely on numerical gauss shots when dealing with vehicles. Sure, we've got doomsday arks, doom scythes and Heavy destroyers, but they're all heavy support.
As with a lot of Necron units, while they're certainly more durable compared to other armies, their offensive power is not the same due to a shorter range or inferior strength/AP.

In a decurion, that's not relevant. You could take multiple, but that would make for a bad army.

People prefer warriors because they're both durable and have the numbers to hurt vehicles and infantry alike.

Conclusion: I think immortals are a bit better than marines, but at the same time I think that they have to be. Necrons can't bring huge amounts of powerful, long range weapons so they need their average joe perform a bit better compared to other armies.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The heavy bolter dudes get doctrines.

Which are essentially just rerolls, right?

That increase their damage output with their heavy bolters by 22%.

Do not Diss the lack of grenades, low initiative or ATSKNF

Ask my necron buddy who had over 450 points of his dudes swept at once in CC by my freaking TAU.

Sure, won't come up every time. But even again fail assault it can be an issue, against semi competent CC? It's lethal


And chapter tactics are not nearly as purely powerful as RP, but they are by far more flexible, letting you spec in what you want.

I do love throwing a Cryptek (with chronometron) with Immortals.

Roll to hit, roll to wound then:
3+ Armour, 5+ Invuln (against shooting), then 4+ RP.

They're tough as feth.

 Otto Weston wrote:
I do love throwing a Cryptek (with chronometron) with Immortals.

Roll to hit, roll to wound then:
3+ Armour, 5+ Invuln (against shooting), then 4+ RP.

They're tough as feth.

Thanks to T5, they're 33% better than Terminators at tanking small arms fire, for a third of the cost.

Balance.

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, I started thinking one day, and ended up at the conclusion that Immortals are kinda stupid in comparison to other things. I'm sure other people have noticed this.

A Space Marine is, what, 13-14 points? WS/BS/S/T4 LD8 I4 A1 Sv3+
They come with more wargear, and have options and such. And their special rules are ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics.

ATSKNF is nice, and Chapter Tactics usually gives them a cool rule, mainly some kind of reroll.

Now to give one of these guys a Heavy Bolter, it's usually, what, 10 points? So they get 36" (Or whatever the range is) S5 AP4 Heavy 3. That makes them 23-24 points for that model. So a squad of Devastators is around 95-100 points for 4 dudes with Heavy Bolters. That's 12 S5 AP4 shots at ~36" range, but they can't really move.


Then you have Necron Immortals. Similar statline, less Initiative, but LD10. No protection from Sweeping or rerolls from chapter tactics, but has Better-than-FNP.

Then their gun. 24" S5 SP4 Rapid-Fire, Gauss. So, a similar statline as a Heavy Bolter. Yeah, they only get one shot at less range, but they're troops that are toting Rapid-Fire Heavy Bolters, can move around freely and shoot Land Raiders off the table. Sure, it's 170 points to get 10 shots at 24", but that's 20 shots at 12". There are some differences, but jesus.

And these guys are only 17 points a model. More durable, and more mobile than 5 Devastators.

This was just an interesting thought I had recently, it's not really important or anything, but I'm honestly surprised to not hear more people complaining about Immortals. They seem pretty ridiculous when compared to other similar units.

Probably, as noted, because the Warriors are better able to be supported and you have to take lots of them anyway for a Decurion, and there are even more ridiculous units that Necrons can bring to the table. I don't think anyone would disagree with your conclusion on their performance however.

 krodarklorr wrote:

alex0911 wrote:
Well i guess its only because ghost ark and wraiths are even better !

Ghost Arks aren't that amazing. They are annoying for Nids to deal with sometimes, but otherwise, shoot them and they splode.

Only if you can pen the AV13 through a 4+ Jink

You need an average of 12 BS3 lascannon shots to accomplish that getting through the shield, and with 4 HP's and reinforced rear armor, they're pretty resistant to anything that isn't penetrating. For what they cost, they're pretty amazing.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
I do love throwing a Cryptek (with chronometron) with Immortals.

Roll to hit, roll to wound then:
3+ Armour, 5+ Invuln (against shooting), then 4+ RP.

They're tough as feth.

Thanks to T5, they're 33% better than Terminators at tanking small arms fire, for a third of the cost.

Balance.

They're.....not T5....

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
I do love throwing a Cryptek (with chronometron) with Immortals.

Roll to hit, roll to wound then:
3+ Armour, 5+ Invuln (against shooting), then 4+ RP.

They're tough as feth.

Thanks to T5, they're 33% better than Terminators at tanking small arms fire, for a third of the cost.

Balance.

They're.....not T5....

They were, though. Back in 3rd/4th/early 5th edition.

I think Immortals suffer from GW pricing them at £20.50 for 5, they are limited to groups of 10 & don't get access to the Ghost Arc Transport.

While they are great unit, they are overshadowed by others in the codex i.e Wraiths/Tomb Blades etc...

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
I think Immortals suffer from GW pricing them at £20.50 for 5, they are limited to groups of 10 & don't get access to the Ghost Arc Transport.

While they are great unit, they are overshadowed by others in the codex i.e Wraiths/Tomb Blades etc...

I suppose that is a good point.

 -Shrike- wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
I do love throwing a Cryptek (with chronometron) with Immortals.

Roll to hit, roll to wound then:
3+ Armour, 5+ Invuln (against shooting), then 4+ RP.

They're tough as feth.

Thanks to T5, they're 33% better than Terminators at tanking small arms fire, for a third of the cost.

Balance.

They're.....not T5....

They were, though. Back in 3rd/4th/early 5th edition.

And that's relevant for a discussion on their current balance how?

Nah I think they are perfectly pointed for what they do.

I'm not sure the Heavy Bolter comparison is really apt - given that they get 0 shots at 25-36", just 1 shot at 13-24" and have to be within 12" of their target to get 2/3 the shots of a heavy bolter.

But, regardless, I think the more important point is that no one uses heavy bolters. The only time you ever see them are when they come stock (e.g. Leman Russ tanks), and the player can't afford to replace them with something worthwhile. Heavy Bolers have too few shots to be effective against infantry (not to mention the relatively poor AP and strength), and their strength is too low to do anything meaningful against tanks.

So, Necrons get around these flaws... by having even fewer shots per weapon. Now, granted, Immortals can have more gauss blasters than SMs can have heavy bolters. But SMs still have comparable options in their devastator squads, and yet still never use them this way. The only ones that were used were SoB ones back in 5th - when they could be rending. So, about 85pts (IIRC) of SoB could put out 12 S5 AP4 rending shots from 36" away. In contrast, 85pts of Immortals need to be 12" away to get 10 S5 AP4 shots, without rending.

Now, Necron weapons do have gauss - so (unlike heavy bolters) they're not completely useless against most vehicles. But, if you're just fishing for 6s, why use them over warriors?

TLDR I just don't think there's much advantage to be had in specialising in a weapon that every other army avoids like the plague.

 krodarklorr wrote:


They're.....not T5....

Oh, they aren't T5 anymore?

Well, then they are just equally good as Terminators at tanking small arms fire, for a third of the cost.

It's all good now.