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True, but the equipment and facilities exist, training the "new" gue units not using tools designed for humans is wasteful.

Not really, the HRR isn't a D weapon that causes multiple wounds against characters/MC's with T6 and high or ID's on a 6. Having a weapon that only gets D strength on a 6 is stupid, because then you'd have to roll again on the D chart and risk getting a 1. Just make Railguns strength D with a special rule that lets you over penetrate units on a 6 causing a line of damage that goes through the entire range of the weapon. That would be sweet.

Also, whats really the point of having human auxiliaries when you have kroot anyways? Do people love fluff that much to give Tau another useless unit like Vespids?

Just make IG able to ally with tau better, there's your gue'vessa right there. Then you can make something actually cool and useful, like dermiug.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Just make IG able to ally with tau better, there's your gue'vessa right there.

Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".

Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.

Then you can make something actually cool and useful, like dermiug.

Or you could make Kroot better.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".

Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.

Not being ex gaurd, does not preclude them from using guard gear. IIRC, human planets produce their own weaponry.

Or you could make Kroot better.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Aren't the Gue'vessa seen as Traitors by the IoM anyway?

They should have their own profile in the Codex IMO

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".

Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.

Not being ex gaurd, does not preclude them from using guard gear. IIRC, human planets produce their own weaponry.

Nope. The Earth Caste, for all intents and purposes, control the manufacturing process and "direct" them as to how to create Tau designed variants of Imperial weaponry.

And "not being ex-guard" does prevent them from being similar enough to the Guard book to justify the nonsense about "make it so that they're Battle Brothers" or other Allied shenanigans.

Or you could make Kroot better.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

When the majority of arguments for Gue'vesa coming into the Tau book are "because Kroot are useless", yeah they kinda are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Aren't the Gue'vessa seen as Traitors by the IoM anyway?

Yes, but not necessarily because they are actually the individuals who betrayed the Imperium.
The children of traitors are seen as traitors by the Imperium. Any humans wearing the Tau iconography are seen as traitors--same as any marked by the Ruinous Powers.

They should have their own profile in the Codex IMO

And what would they bring to the Codex that isn't already in there?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".

Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.

Not being ex gaurd, does not preclude them from using guard gear. IIRC, human planets produce their own weaponry.

Nope. The Earth Caste, for all intents and purposes, control the manufacturing process and "direct" them as to how to create Tau designed variants of Imperial weaponry.
Never heard of that, although I'm not quite up on all the new fluff

And "not being ex-guard" does prevent them from being similar enough to the Guard book to justify the nonsense about "make it so that they're Battle Brothers" or other Allied shenanigans.
How? They were probably trained by people trained by ex-gaurd. And the PDF forces probably didn't change very much.

Or you could make Kroot better.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

When the majority of arguments for Gue'vesa coming into the Tau book are "because Kroot are useless", yeah they kinda are.
And when have I ever said that. And you have yet to put a single reaons why kroot can't be made viable, and dermiug added at the same. (beacuse there isn't one)
I want kroot to be viable, and vespid to be viable, and to have more optons like dermiug, nissacar, talleran, gue'vessa ect.

Why is it so difficult for people to multi-quote? The red-text-within-a-quote-box is such an eye-sore.

Yes, the tau earth caste are probably directing and upgrading the military industry of human planets.

But it means not that the BASE isn't around IG equipment.

IG chassis equipped with tau weaponry, Gue'vesa squads armed with enhanced las weaponry, markerlight systems integration, and maybe even grav tech are all things that can happen.

A good gue'vesa unit, is a spin-off of iconic guard unit, to fit into tau warfare.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why is it so difficult for people to multi-quote? The red-text-within-a-quote-box is such an eye-sore.

Some of us visit here from our phone at times, and on a phone multi-qoute takes forever to set up.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why is it so difficult for people to multi-quote? The red-text-within-a-quote-box is such an eye-sore.

TBH, I can't be bothered with taking the time. It takes me forever to figure out where everything goes.

What if they introduced the Gue'vessa in a different way that didn't require a lot of effort?

Basically what if they said you could replace Kroot squads with Gue'vessa squads and they functioned the same. The difference being that they had different models (GW could make some really cool Tau armoured humans), couldn't take Krootox's but could take the hounds (also different models) and the most important thing to differentiate the two is that while Kroot can upgrade their rifles to Sniper Rounds, the Gue'vessa get a different upgrade but can't get Sniper Rounds.

That doesn't seem complicated and keeps the bloat down since it's basically the units in all but model and potentially a different weapon upgrade. They could also just add the Gue'vessa since right now we only have two troop choices and it would be nice to have another.

I know it would ruin and not fit in with and make them more op, but still a psychic phase would be fun

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except there's really not "your Gue'vessa right there".

Gue'vessa are--as of the most modern point in the 40k timeline and depending on the planet's "liberation" date--second or third generation individuals. You won't find many ex-Guardsmen or the like in there anymore. It's people who grew up under the Tau, who are trusted by the Tau, trained by the Tau, and equipped with Tau weaponry.

Not being ex gaurd, does not preclude them from using guard gear. IIRC, human planets produce their own weaponry.

Nope. The Earth Caste, for all intents and purposes, control the manufacturing process and "direct" them as to how to create Tau designed variants of Imperial weaponry.
Never heard of that, although I'm not quite up on all the new fluff

Don't do this stupid color crap. It's not hard to work quote tags.

That's not new fluff in any regards.

And "not being ex-guard" does prevent them from being similar enough to the Guard book to justify the nonsense about "make it so that they're Battle Brothers" or other Allied shenanigans.
How? They were probably trained by people trained by ex-gaurd. And the PDF forces probably didn't change very much.

When we're talking three or four generations that have lived and integrated into Tau society? They're not being trained by "ex-Guard". They're being trained by the Tau Fire Caste to integrate into Tau Fire Caste battleplans.

Or you could make Kroot better.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

When the majority of arguments for Gue'vesa coming into the Tau book are "because Kroot are useless", yeah they kinda are.
And when have I ever said that. And you have yet to put a single reaons why kroot can't be made viable, and dermiug added at the same. (beacuse there isn't one)
I want kroot to be viable, and vespid to be viable, and to have more optons like dermiug, nissacar, talleran, gue'vessa ect.

Gue'vesa aren't "an option" as continually suggested. They're literally Guard entries copy/pasted over to the Tau Empire book.

Mobile Artillery makes sense for the Tau, yet they have none.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Some of us visit here from our phone at times, and on a phone multi-qoute takes forever to set up.

90% of my posting is done via smart-phone. Git gewd.

1. No, I don't have the patience to bother with it. Just using colour is easier for me.
2. If it's not new, than where is it from?
3. It's been 2 years since taros was assimilated. The third sphere only started 3 years ago. It has not been 3 generations. And where does it say that the fire caste train them?

And I will point out, that the gue'vessa in the taros campaing book were literally gaurdsmen, it's just that the leader had the option to take a pulse weapon.

Fluff-wise, I think the most commonly encountered forces will probably be some version of PDF.

Edit: dammit, double ninjas

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
1. No, I don't have the patience to bother with it. Just using colour is easier for me.

And "just using color" is lazy and looks awful.

2. If it's not new, than where is it from?

Pre-Tau Empire.

3. It's been 2 years since taros was assimilated. The third sphere only started 3 years ago. It has not been 3 generations.

T'ros was originally an Imperial mining world called Taros and was gradually annexed beginning in 978 M41

It wasn't until 998.M41 that the Imperium launched an attempt to retake Taros

So sure, while Taros hasn't been 3 generations, you do realize that it's been 250 years since the Damocles Gulf Crusade right?

And where does it say that the fire caste train them?

Again, old fluff.

And I will point out, that the gue'vessa in the taros campaign book were literally gaurdsmen, it's just that the leader had the option to take a pulse weapon.

And I will point out that Forge World's "Gue'vesa" are meant to be something easily converted--but when pressed on the issue ages ago they said something to the effect of "We'd like to do a real kit that is actually different in the way they should be but can't justify it"

Fluff-wise, I think the most commonly encountered forces will probably be some version of PDF.

Which means they could range from being as effective as Cultists to Veteran Guardsmen.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Some of us visit here from our phone at times, and on a phone multi-qoute takes forever to set up.

90% of my posting is done via smart-phone. Git gewd.

I believe I have posted from a PC once.

This created my GLORIOUS attention to screwing up quote tags.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
1. No, I don't have the patience to bother with it. Just using colour is easier for me.

And "just using color" is lazy and looks awful.
And I, am an incredibly lazy person. And I don't like spending 15 minutes to get all the quotes right

2. If it's not new, than where is it from?

Pre-Tau Empire.
Huh? How is tau empire fluff from before the tau empire existed?e

3. It's been 2 years since taros was assimilated. The third sphere only started 3 years ago. It has not been 3 generations.

T'ros was originally an Imperial mining world called Taros and was gradually annexed beginning in 978 M41

It wasn't until 998.M41 that the Imperium launched an attempt to retake Taros

So sure, while Taros hasn't been 3 generations, you do realize that it's been 250 years since the Damocles Gulf Crusade right?
Never mind then, I'm just an idiot.

And where does it say that the fire caste train them?

Again, old fluff.
again, where? AFAIK, human worlds tend to mostly run themselves, with direction from the tau, not actual training or anything. Now that may change (especially if these geu'vessa are inductees instead of just PDF)

And I will point out, that the gue'vessa in the taros campaign book were literally gaurdsmen, it's just that the leader had the option to take a pulse weapon.

And I will point out that Forge World's "Gue'vesa" are meant to be something easily converted--but when pressed on the issue ages ago they said something to the effect of "We'd like to do a real kit that is actually different in the way they should be but can't justify it"
I did not know that.

Fluff-wise, I think the most commonly encountered forces will probably be some version of PDF.

Which means they could range from being as effective as Cultists to Veteran Guardsmen.
I thought PDF tended to be what the gaurd recruit from? Or am I forgetting something

Since you're not going to do me the courtesy of taking two minutes to do quote tags, I'm responding in this fashion to you:

1) BEFORE THE BOOK TAU EMPIRE EXISTED, THE TAU CODEX WAS JUST CALLED TAU.
3) READ THE BACKGROUND MATERIAL THAT EXISTS ON THE GUE'VESA. THIS IS NOT NEW MATERIAL.
5) THE GUARD RECRUIT FROM THE PLANET'S POPULATION AND THE PDF. OFFICERS OF THE PDF ARE SOMETIMES USED TO FORM A CADRE OF OFFICERS FOR A NEWLY FOUNDED REGIMENT. VETERAN GUARDSMEN ARE SOMETIMES USED TO FORM A CADRE OF OFFICERS FOR A NEWLY FOUNDED PDF.

1. Ah. Well, I'm most used to the 4th edition codex, (I started in 4th), so I was not thinking along those lines. You can see where the confusion comes from, though. I think I do have the 3rd edition one around somewhere though. (maybe?)

2. Again, and this is the third time I've asked, Where? Just saying "look at the fluff" Isn't an answer. I don't need exact pages or anything, a book (or even series) would suffice. I'd like to know if this "common knowledge" (I.E. fanon, that gets repeated so often it practically becomes canon), or if it's something I haven't read (in which case I want to read it.

3. That makes sense.

All I know is this color sickens me. It all clashes so bad.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

2. Again, and this is the third time I've asked, Where? Just saying "look at the fluff" Isn't an answer. I don't need exact pages or anything, a book (or even series) would suffice. I'd like to know if this "common knowledge" (I.E. fanon, that gets repeated so often it practically becomes canon), or if it's something I haven't read (in which case I want to read it.

IT'S CALLED CHAPTER APPROVED. THE FIRST RULES FOR GUE'VESA WERE IN A CHAPTER APPROVED ARTICLE PUBLISHED ONLINE, WHICH YOU CAN FIND STILL BY USING THE WAYBACK MACHINE.

So how about everyone who doesn't like Tau stop posting in a Tau centric thread, and let the people who do like them discuss what they want in a new codex.

I'd like to hear peoples ideas for our formations and detachments. I'm having trouble thinking of a way to properly build them, so I'd appreciate others thoughts.

LockeWatts wrote:

I'd like to hear peoples ideas for our formations and detachments. I'm having trouble thinking of a way to properly build them, so I'd appreciate others thoughts.

The Big-Detachment is the Tau Coalition. The basic Core formation is the Hunter Demi-Cadre (sorry, but Half-Cadre sounds silly). Stick together two Demi-Cadres for a full Hunter Cadre extra bonuses a'la SM. Other Core formation is an Auxiliary Forces Cadre (Kroot, Vespid, Gue'vesa, whatever). Auxiliary formations are Crisis Suit Cadre, Tank Cadre, Mechanized FW Cadre, Stealth Suit Cadre, Broadside Cadre, Piranha Cadre, Drone "Cadre", and Riptide Cadre. Command formations are Commander "Cadre" and Ethereal "Cadre". That's pretty much all you need.

A new vehicule, some sort of support tank with 4 detachable sniper drones. Drones use the BS of the vehicule and get reduced to BS3 should the tank die.

Most snipers in armies are already BS4 so reducing to 3 on death of tank would not be too bad. Plus there are many ways of making this look boss.

I think it would see alot more use than the current drone sniper teams.

The Big-Detachment is the Tau Coalition. The basic Core formation is the Hunter Demi-Cadre (sorry, but Half-Cadre sounds silly). Stick together two Demi-Cadres for a full Hunter Cadre extra bonuses a'la SM.

I don't think this is a guaranteed thing. Daemonkin, and Necrons have only 1 core option (Slaughtercult and Reclamation Legion respectively), while Eldar have 3. And Marines are unique in their "put 2 of these together to get free stuff" bit. Why do you assume Tau will go that way?

Also as far as the naming structure, a Hunter Cadre is almost certainly the detachment level name. I hope every formation doesn't end with the same word. That would get highly annoying.

Morkai, that doesn't get around the fact that sniper drones are just bad. Putting them on a vehicle doesn't make them better. Competing with Broadsides (and hopefully Hammerheads) for heavy support slots hurts, even in the new formation style books.

Sniper drones, are most certainly not bad, just outclassed. They have one of the best sniper weapons in the game, can move and shoot, JSJ, and have stealth. They are just competing for the HS slot, which makes them less desirable.

They have one of the best sniper weapons in the game

Uhh... 48" Rapid Fire AP5 does not make one of the best sniper weapons in the game. The Vindicare called, it wants it's title back.

move and shoot, JSJ,

The Marksman can't, which severely limits the utility of these.

I think Sniper Drone Teams were a poor concept when they were made, and haven't improved much. If Tau wanted snipers, they should have just bolted Rail Rifles to them. Now those would be an interesting unit.