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Chicago Kamikazes are currently in first place .

Not surprisingly elder tied for first, tied for third, and 5, 6, 8 so far on points scored.

perrin23860 wrote:
EXTREMELY disappointed in the dice down ruling that was sprung upon several people apparently. No mention in either tourney pack or faq of this uncommon ruling. So my opponent got an entire extra turn on me and I was not allowed to finish literally a 1 minute turn. Talked to several tourney vets and all have agreed that it's extremely poor form for a tourney to spring such a ruling on folks without any heads up in any of the tourney documents.

Doubtful I'll be returning...

Man this is so disappointing, How fare is that when one person gets to take one more player turn than his opponent? what the heck is going on down there?
Feel for ya man, sorry to hear of this BS.

What's the max points out of a round? It's 33 to max out a single game so is it 165 a round or does it cap out at some point?

wighti wrote:
What's the max points out of a round? It's 33 to max out a single game so is it 165 a round or does it cap out at some point?

That's correct - 33 max per game, 165 per round

perrin23860 wrote:
EXTREMELY disappointed in the dice down ruling that was sprung upon several people apparently. No mention in either tourney pack or faq of this uncommon ruling. So my opponent got an entire extra turn on me and I was not allowed to finish literally a 1 minute turn. Talked to several tourney vets and all have agreed that it's extremely poor form for a tourney to spring such a ruling on folks without any heads up in any of the tourney documents.

Doubtful I'll be returning...

Wow what a total load of soy sauce.. I mean what the heck did that judge smoke. I demand seppuku to redeem himself.. until then his whole family lacks honor!!

Tsilber wrote:

perrin23860 wrote:
EXTREMELY disappointed in the dice down ruling that was sprung upon several people apparently. No mention in either tourney pack or faq of this uncommon ruling. So my opponent got an entire extra turn on me and I was not allowed to finish literally a 1 minute turn. Talked to several tourney vets and all have agreed that it's extremely poor form for a tourney to spring such a ruling on folks without any heads up in any of the tourney documents.

Doubtful I'll be returning...

Man this is so disappointing, How fare is that when one person gets to take one more player turn than his opponent? what the heck is going on down there?
Feel for ya man, sorry to hear of this BS.

What he's leaving out is that you are supposed to agree with your opponent before starting a game turn as to whether there is time for another. If they didn't pay attention to the instructions or the time left then....

FWIW, that you should stop playing when your time limit expires should not shock anyone, and shows a clear misunderstanding of what "time expiring" means. Time's up. That's it.

That other tournaments allow play to continue is them being forgiving, not Shane and crew doing something that should surprise you.

Further, its been like this for at least the last two years, and as a cognizant player in the game, you need to manage your time as much as your opponent does, and if you feel they are overstepping, you need to be proactive, not reactive.

They've played that way for at least 7 years. They also run tournies on-time.

Tournaments start and run on time? WHAT MAGIC IS THIS?!

Best ATC ever !

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

perrin23860 wrote:
EXTREMELY disappointed in the dice down ruling that was sprung upon several people apparently. No mention in either tourney pack or faq of this uncommon ruling. So my opponent got an entire extra turn on me and I was not allowed to finish literally a 1 minute turn. Talked to several tourney vets and all have agreed that it's extremely poor form for a tourney to spring such a ruling on folks without any heads up in any of the tourney documents.

Doubtful I'll be returning...

Man this is so disappointing, How fare is that when one person gets to take one more player turn than his opponent? what the heck is going on down there?
Feel for ya man, sorry to hear of this BS.

What he's leaving out is that you are supposed to agree with your opponent before starting a game turn as to whether there is time for another. If they didn't pay attention to the instructions or the time left then....

'

I fail to see your point... One person got an extra turn. It is a tournament with toy soldiers, not the changing of the guard at buck palace... The rules of the tourney should never be so rigid that it creates an extreme act of unfairness towards one of the players.

I see you guys talking about taking turns, and the rules for 2 years say X and manage time better.... Lets face it, its a fun tourney, or should be at least. And regardless, if you agree on one more turn and then one person takes much longer on said turn for whatever reason, regardless of anything else, player 2 should get his fair ups.

Now if the tourney pro's want to win and have pride in taking one extra turn than their opponent, or are banking on their opponent forgetting something or being rushed.. Well congrats I guess, what a true champion...

I believe the point is that it's a player's responsibility to make sure 1.) there will be enough time, and 2.) hold the opponent responsible for not taking more than their share of remaining time.

Yes, it should be for fun, but this is an event with ~250 players involving some complicated scoring to determine following round pairings. If you don't enforce a strict dice down policy you'll get terribly behind and have 246 players waiting on 2.

If you have concerns about finishing the turn, total up the points then and only agree to continue if the opponent agrees to take their turn in less than half the remaining time. If they don't, you go back to the scoring from before the turn began. Break out a stop watch if need be.

Printed rules are printed rules. As stated, the TO is a volunteer with responsibilities beyond making sure people are reading rules, standing up for themselves, and not getting legally gamed. It doesn't make gaming the clock, sportsmanlike by the way. But waiting until dice down and then expecting to argue your individual way out of it is a little late. It's also impossible for a TO who wasn't there to judge. The player who got "screwed" could just as easily have been gaming time himself, planning to be guaranteed the chance to finish his turn for objective grabs without having to worry about rolling to see if the game went another turn.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but how would a TO changing a tournament rule for fairness have any idea which side to choose, and then what about all those tables where the same thing happened but the player just shrugged and thought "well that sucked."

Best course is not to call out the entire tournament with a vague, one sided story full of heat of the moment angst. This is the kind of stuff that scares the uninformed off attending events in the first place.

Roughly 50 teams and 250 people and the event ran smoothly and on time. A great time had by all that I enocuntered. Congratulations to the top three....especially team happy for the win.....my thanks to Shane and crew for running what is the most strategic and challenging tournament I've ever been to. Great competiton from all!

Tsilber wrote:


I fail to see your point... One person got an extra turn.

Yeah, that shouldn't happen, totally agree. The solution? Pay attention to the announcements when they say "Don't start another Turn if you cannot both finish that turn." Pay attention to the clock and agree with your opponent as to whether you can both get another turn in. It's definitely not a super important rigid event, that's why the entirety of the participants shouldn't have to wait for you to finish your game turn that you shouldn't have started in the first place.

I see you guys talking about taking turns, and the rules for 2 years say X and manage time better.... Lets face it, its a fun tourney, or should be at least. And regardless, if you agree on one more turn and then one person takes much longer on said turn for whatever reason, regardless of anything else, player 2 should get his fair ups.

I have agreed in the past to another turn only if we record points before it and go back to those points if both players don't get their turns in. I have also had to stand my ground against a player with less than 20 models in his entire army arguing we could get my player turn AND another game turn in in 21 minutes. I was playing guard (and had just taken all of the objectives from him in a single turn) and had about 40 models left on the table. No way I could get in a full turn in 7 minutes.

Now if the tourney pro's want to win and have pride in taking one extra turn than their opponent, or are banking on their opponent forgetting something or being rushed.. Well congrats I guess, what a true champion...

I have seen Shane make exceptions for the top tables. If the contenders need a few more minutes to get an equal amount of turns in it is sometimes allowed. There's usually more judges present at the top tables to regulate this issue as well. So really, it's people placing 44th instead of 43rd that get affected by this, not the top qualifiers. Nice little dig though, it helps your argument....really!

Dice down rule is fine but someone should never get an extra turn in a tourney. Best way to handle it would be to ignore the last turn of someone wasn't given enough time to finish his turn. If not you will run into situations where your opponent cheats his way to a free turn. You will run into situations where you think you have time for another turn ~15+ min and your opponent slow plays and eats up the time to win. The only way to solve this is by ignoring that last turn. Everyone should have at least 5 min for thier last turn. That's the only fair rule.

Also do people still think necrons are overpowered when they still couldn't break the top 10 armies in points (best ranked 15)
And do people still think elder don't need to be comped when 7 out of the top ten armies were elder. I think the atc pretty much validates most of the str d comps and the single super heavy comps most tourney uses.

They had the clock up on the wall and you couldn't miss it. I had one game that the time was very important and I kept a steady eye on it.

GREAT ATC!!!!!!!

CONGRATES TO TEAM HAPPY FOR WINNING

THANKS TO MY TEAM MATES ON "DEATH SPIRAL DOWNWARD" FOR HAVING A GREAT FIRST YEAR IN THE THUNDERDOME THAT WAS OUR SCHEDULE.!!!!

Already thinking about next year.

Tsilber wrote:
I fail to see your point... One person got an extra turn. It is a tournament with toy soldiers, not the changing of the guard at buck palace.

[...]

Lets face it, its a fun tourney, or should be at least.

[...]

Now if the tourney pro's want to win and have pride in taking one extra turn than their opponent, or are banking on their opponent forgetting something or being rushed.. Well congrats I guess, what a true champion...

What an absurd sequence of thoughts. "It's just a game about toy soldiers, therefore it is so incredibly important that 210 people should bend backwards to ensure one person (who could not follow clearly stated rules) is not caused to lose a turn."

Those two people aren't playing in a vacuum. There's literally hundreds of real people with real schedules involved. You cannot hold up a tournament because one person can't follow rules.

I was with Team Happy, and we happened to win the whole tournament--and one of our players wasn't even able to stick around for the announcement. He had to leave for the airport as soon as he turned in his score sheet. We had to text him that we actually won while he was sitting at the terminal. If the event had gone 30 minutes over schedule, he would have missed his flight. So, for the sake of showing a realistic example of the other side of things, we're certainly very happy with Shane and crew for running a tight schedule.

Big thanks to those guys for running a really amazing event, particularly considering how complicated all the pairings and interactions between teams are--I've run a smaller GT myself and judged at larger ones, but ATC is a whole different thing in terms of format, and they handle it really well. Was consistently impressed by the quality (and number) of their floor staff and judges, too. Even with ~210 people, it seemed to never take more than ten seconds to locate a judge when one was needed.

And a shout out to Death Spiral Down (as a team) and Neil (specifically) for handing us (as a team) and me (personally) our/my only round losses. We knew you guys were going to be a rough matchup for us coming in. I certainly didn't expect MSU Necrons to be the thing that wrecked me in a field full of 4 Wraithknight and 5 Imperial Knight lists. Lucky for us, our friends in the Kamikazes got some minor revenge for us in the following round.

I love have most of the angst and righteous anger comes from people not in attendance. This was a wonderful event and as noted, the dice down rule has years of notice and precedence. It took two to mess it up.

calltoarms wrote:
I love have most of the angst and righteous anger comes from people not in attendance.

^ This.

The game in question was the last game of day 1. There were no players waiting on us. Many had left and some were also finishing up too. We began the last turn with 20 minutes left. My opponent took about 15 minutes to do his turn leaving maybe 5 minutes. I didn't mind as he and I knew my last turn would take very little time. It just required moving a model to contest the relic and resolving a small combat. Literally 60 Seconds max. We began figuring out the points before i did my 1 minute turn just to easily wrap up the after game, by acknowleging who had each primaries and secondaries and such, and also congratulating each other on a great game. I guess that ate up my 5 minutes. Both myself and opponent told the judge just that. He said no.

Overall it wasn't that I was disappointed I couldn't earn points for my team, but that I was unfairly treated. We were not the last to turn in our score sheets so the minute for my turn would not have mattered to anyone really. There were still many people hanging out and wrapping up for the day.

It's not my first atc. Been going for the last 4 years... even won it one year... I've been an avid promoter of their event. Love the style and all the folks. Every game I played was amazing, and the teams awfully fun. Made new friends and caught up with old ones.

Overall Shane and folks do a fine job. Always been impressed. It's why I continue to give them my money. But any judge who is so obtuse to refuse someone their last turn, a 1 minute turn, is an ass. It pissed me off greatly. I'm generally considered an easy going guy. Very agreeable and just happy to play games and not work. Some folks I guess...

DJ3 wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
I fail to see your point... One person got an extra turn. It is a tournament with toy soldiers, not the changing of the guard at buck palace.

[...]

Lets face it, its a fun tourney, or should be at least.

[...]

Now if the tourney pro's want to win and have pride in taking one extra turn than their opponent, or are banking on their opponent forgetting something or being rushed.. Well congrats I guess, what a true champion...

What an absurd sequence of thoughts. "It's just a game about toy soldiers, therefore it is so incredibly important that 210 people should bend backwards to ensure one person (who could not follow clearly stated rules) is not caused to lose a turn."

.

Let me rephrase and Edit: Your attacks and thought process in your very first sentence, and the over exaggeration in the part about "210 people bending over backwards..." is comical...
First off 2 people taking 10 minutes is not forcing 210 to bend over backwards.. frankly not even the slightest.

You won, congrats for your team. But the guy who originally posted about not having the fair amount of turns on day 1, should have gotten his turn, back during the insignificant rounds pertaining to the people who might not of had a chance to win, but still payed to play and have a good time. I understand there are rules, and a lot of should of , could of... But no one knows of the conversation or the facts pertaining to the that final turn as time approached.

Apparently because I did not attend my argument must be moot anyway... I forgot this portion of thread was for people who only played in the tournament of the thread topic. My bad...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

perrin23860 wrote:
The game in question was the last game of day 1. There were no players waiting on us. Many had left and some were also finishing up too. We began the last turn with 20 minutes left. My opponent took about 15 minutes to do his turn leaving maybe 5 minutes. I didn't mind as he and I knew my last turn would take very little time. It just required moving a model to contest the relic and resolving a small combat. Literally 60 Seconds max. Both myself and opponent told the judge just that. He said no.

Overall it wasn't that I wasn't so much that I was disappointed I couldn't earn points for my team, but that I was unfairly treated. We were not the last to turn in our score sheets so the minute for my turn would not have mattered to anyone really. There were still many people hanging out and wrapping up for the day.

It's not my first atc. Been going for the last 4 years... even won it one year... I've been an avid promoter of their event. Love the style and all the folks. Every game I played was amazing, and the teams awfully fun. Made new friends and caught up with old ones.

Overall Shane and folks do a fine job. Always been impressed. It's why I continue to give them my money. But any judge who is so obtuse to refuse someone their last turn, a 1 minute turn, is an ass. It pissed me off greatly. I'm generally considered an easy going guy. Very agreeable and just happy to play games and not work. Some folks I guess...

And now the witness of the game is here to speak about the facts, which makes it even more ridiculous that he didn't get a last ups.... A 1 or 2 minute turn, at the end of day 1, no one waiting on them to finish... Cmon, poor decision not to let him take his final turn.

perrin23860 wrote:
The game in question was the last game of day 1. There were no players waiting on us. Many had left and some were also finishing up too. We began the last turn with 20 minutes left. My opponent took about 15 minutes to do his turn leaving maybe 5 minutes. I didn't mind as he and I knew my last turn would take very little time. It just required moving a model to contest the relic and resolving a small combat. Literally 60 Seconds max. We began figuring out the points before i did my 1 minute turn just to easily wrap up the after game, by acknowleging who had each primaries and secondaries and such, and also congratulating each other on a great game. I guess that ate up my 5 minutes. Both myself and opponent told the judge just that. He said no.

Overall it wasn't that I was disappointed I couldn't earn points for my team, but that I was unfairly treated. We were not the last to turn in our score sheets so the minute for my turn would not have mattered to anyone really. There were still many people hanging out and wrapping up for the day.

It's not my first atc. Been going for the last 4 years... even won it one year... I've been an avid promoter of their event. Love the style and all the folks. Every game I played was amazing, and the teams awfully fun. Made new friends and caught up with old ones.

Overall Shane and folks do a fine job. Always been impressed. It's why I continue to give them my money. But any judge who is so obtuse to refuse someone their last turn, a 1 minute turn, is an ass. It pissed me off greatly. I'm generally considered an easy going guy. Very agreeable and just happy to play games and not work. Some folks I guess...

This is a much more useful / better post than the first one. Thanks for clarifying.

perrin23860 wrote:
The game in question was the last game of day 1. There were no players waiting on us. Many had left and some were also finishing up too. We began the last turn with 20 minutes left. My opponent took about 15 minutes to do his turn leaving maybe 5 minutes. I didn't mind as he and I knew my last turn would take very little time. It just required moving a model to contest the relic and resolving a small combat. Literally 60 Seconds max. We began figuring out the points before i did my 1 minute turn just to easily wrap up the after game, by acknowleging who had each primaries and secondaries and such, and also congratulating each other on a great game. I guess that ate up my 5 minutes. Both myself and opponent told the judge just that. He said no.

Overall it wasn't that I was disappointed I couldn't earn points for my team, but that I was unfairly treated. We were not the last to turn in our score sheets so the minute for my turn would not have mattered to anyone really. There were still many people hanging out and wrapping up for the day.

It's not my first atc. Been going for the last 4 years... even won it one year... I've been an avid promoter of their event. Love the style and all the folks. Every game I played was amazing, and the teams awfully fun. Made new friends and caught up with old ones.

Overall Shane and folks do a fine job. Always been impressed. It's why I continue to give them my money. But any judge who is so obtuse to refuse someone their last turn, a 1 minute turn, is an ass. It pissed me off greatly. I'm generally considered an easy going guy. Very agreeable and just happy to play games and not work. Some folks I guess...

Perrin if that was the case and it was just a matter of movement to contest the relic why did you and your opponent just not agree it was contested and score it that way? Sounds like a simple fix to your simplified complaint.
Last year I saw some of the top teams go way over in time and it pissed off 200 other people. We were waiting for match ups while two teams continued to play well past the time limits. This may have contributed to the hard stance but I still think a simple agreement between you and your opponent was the easy fix.

Agree that second post phrases the issue much better. Well stated.

They had a variety of judges on hand to manage roughly 125 games at a time. The judges made some great calls. They made some bad calls. They made some subjective calls. But. At all times I personally found that thry listened to both sides, asked for references to the rule book, and even co suited with other judges. Indeed, we were allowed to "appeal" our judges ruling when he openly admitted he was not confident. No ego....just trying to get it right.

Be careful, as your first post did, in disparaging a great event for one bad moment. Be careful too in your second post of referring to a judge as obtuse when you have no idea what mandate he was under. Time was a stickler.

Now. It does sound very clear that your opponent really cheesed you. That, frankly, seems the more apt reference and direction for thr obtuse comment.

This is troll fest now.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
This is troll fest now.

King Troll calling troll > Troll or Truth?

The thread is no longer serving any useful purpose.