Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I have found a glaring problem, GW is rewriting war-scrolls on the quiet, compare the new chaos books skaven engineer with the free one online, how many others have been changed and from what book to book?
The warlock engineer looks the same to me, are you looking at the Arch-Warlock? Because his rules are a reprint of Ikit Claw's. That said, there are some that were changed and a few new ones. The Chaos Lord (now rebranded "Lord of Chaos") is a bit different (and a good change imo), while Exalted Hero of Chaos is new. The Masque of Slaanesh was changed slightly with an alteration to her previous silly rule. Daemonic Heralds across the board saw a subtle change in that locus effects on other units now require any daemon hero (of the appropriate god) rather than a herald specifically.
Almost all of the rules are identical however, so it's something we'll need to keep note of but not a huge issue.
On a separate note, and this is mostly curiosity on my part, but who rolls for initiative each round? I know me and my buds decided quite early on that simply alternating was better (we found double turns to be gamebreaking), but I wonder what other people's experience with this is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 21:21:28
not rolling off for turns would certainly add more of a strategic mode to the game. also its different in regards to if the warlock fails it spell it now takes d6 mortal wound instead of 1 in the free one, pretty big change!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 21:34:57
On a separate note, and this is mostly curiosity on my part, but who rolls for initiative each round? I know me and my buds decided quite early on that simply alternating was better (we found double turns to be gamebreaking), but I wonder what other people's experience with this is.
My group plays with alternating turns. Seems more tactical that way. You can't really plan any clever moves when your opponent gets two turns in a row (so much for that outflanking, refused flank etc). Also more close games (less extremes, where armies crumble etc). Getting two big charges with your own retributors (and striking first both times) is juicy though, but tend to break opponents. Same with healthy monsters etc. Two arcane bolts sniping characters is not good.
Not yet, I suspect Attila will get to that when he returns from his trip. When I post the points for the basic Death battalions (probably in a few days) I'll include the whole list in spoiler tags.
As promised, here are the battalion costs all in one post! Everyone please try these out if you get a chance since I am sure these values will need to be adjusted. Also keep in mind they are tuned for 1500-2500 point games so outside that balance is not guaranteed.
Order
Spoiler:
[Stormcast] Host Azyric - 500 pts. The "From the Heavens they Come" rule can only summon up to 100 pts of Stormcast models.
[Stormcast] Skyborne Slayers - 350 pts. No battleshock on Stormcasts isn't nearly as useful it is on most armies.
[Brettonians] Defenders of the Realm - 125 pts. Good synergy with the bonuses to wound rolls on the charge.
[Brettonians] Peasant Militia - 300 pts. Men-at-Arms hit on 2s if they are 30+ and a Paladin is nearby, and this battalion lets them reroll 1s.
[Dark Elves] Blood Cult - 300 pts. The benefit to Witch Elf units is significant, and lets them take out armored targets they would otherwise have problems with.
[Dark Elves] Exiled Warhost - 600 pts. Sorry DElf players, the bleakswords option drove the cost way up due to extra attack chaining potential on the charge.
[Dwarfs] Artillery Battery - 125 pts. Decent benefits but weak synergy with warmachines' battlefield use.
[Dwarfs] Clan Throng - 200 pts. The battleshock benefit is not as great because of unit banners and the BSB character, but reroll 1s to hit is solid.
[High Elves] Altran Stormriders Host - 125 pts. The hero benefit requires that the very squishy high elf mage stays relatively close to the flying prince, and the bravery benefit is a bit weak because the units will likely be rocking bravery 8 from their banners.
[High Elves] Dragon Host - 400 pts. Giving all three dragon characters re-roll 1s to hit is powerful to begin with, combined with the potential of the dragonfire ability to obliterate anything it likes.
[High Elves] Glittering Host - 275 pts. Basically you get to pick two units rather than one as your first pick of each combat phase, plus a good battleshock boost.
[Lizardmen] Saurus Host - 200 pts. Solid bonuses, though ignoring battleshock on bravery 10 units may not always be useful.
[Lizardmen] Skink Patrol - 425 pts. Deep-striking ripperdactyls with +1 to wound will destroy whatever they charge that turn.
[Sylvaneth] Guardians of the Deepwood - 225 pts. The real benefit here is not the underwhelming deployment ability as much as the advantage of being able to but down the Wyldwoods anywhere on the battlefield (as opposed to your table half with the normal PPC terrain warscroll rules) and THEN deploy into them.
[Empire] Brotherhood of Knights - 175 pts. The charge bonus is OK, the bravery bonus is nice, and the requirements are very easy.
[Empire] State Troop Detachment - 375 points. State troops are why PPC says attacks always miss on a 1.
[Wood Elves] Wanderer Host - 150 points. A nice deployment option but the other benefit is extremely situational.
Chaos
Spoiler:
[Beastmen] Bullgor Stampede - 700 pts. This needs to be priced very very high because of the extra attack potential. Presumably the Doombull will be using his command ability here, meaning each wound roll of 5+ (4+ for the Ghorgon) generates two extra attacks. Wound rolls for those attacks generate extra attacks, and so on.
[Beastmen] Furious Brayherd - 200 pts. A powerful bonus but with a limited range, also contingent on the characters being alive.
[Beastmen] Ungor Raiders Ambush - 300 pts. This is a very potent deployment benefit and the potential hit roll bonus has a great deal of synergy with the unit size benefit to re-roll hits of 1 or 2.
[Daemons] Cohort of Khorne - 75 pts. The benefits are nice, but very situational.
[Daemons] Cohort of Nurgle - 150 pts. Solid bonuses, but the first is a bit unreliable and the second is redundant on half of the battalion since Plaguebearers will likely be getting that benefit from their locus anyway.
[Daemons] Cohort of Slaanesh - 325 pts. For the player who owns a lot of daemonette models this battalion is gold, if dependent on what your opponent has.
[Daemons] Cohort of Tzeentch - 750 pts. Probably the best battalion in the game.
[Bloodbound] Ravagers of Ruin Keep - Free. Having to take the component units and terrain of the battalion in exchange for mediocre benefits justifies the cost.
[Skaven] Eshin Clawpack - 200 pts. The first benefit is good but doesn't affect the assassin, the second benefit only affects the assassin.
[Skaven] Moulder Clawpack - 200 pts. A bit heavy on the requirements, but solid bonuses.
[Skaven] Skreet Verminkin's Horde - 50 pts. Significant requirements, a double-edge benefit for the characters and a troop benefit that is redundant with the banner bearer you will probably be taking either way.
[Skaven] Verminus Clawpack - 275 pts. The bonuses are good and have really good synergy with the models in the battalion.
[Pestilens] Pestilent Clawpack - 325 pts. The first benefit has good synergy with the wound roll bonus from the priest and the second bonus is quite potent because you can buy a terrain warscroll as well to get control over what the pack-nest will be.
[Tamurkhan's Horde] Sons of the Maggot Lord - 175 pts. How much benefit you get is largely determined by what your opponent brings.
[Tamurkhan's Horde] The Leaping Pox - 100 pts. Mediocre benefits that do not have good synergy with each other.
[Legion of Azgorh] Blackshard Warhost - 275 pts. Good benefits on models you would likely be taking together anyway.
[Legion of Azgorh] Artillery Train - 200 pts. The trick here is that an Iron Daemon can haul the other warmachines, allowing them to move without counting as having done so.
[Warriors of Chaos] Chaos Warband - 175 pts. Very nice rewards, but unreliable and they won't kick in until partly through the game.
[Warriors of Chaos] Marauder Raiders - 175 pts. Somewhat situational, but solid benefits overall.
Death
Spoiler:
[Tomb Kings] Royal Legion of Chariots - 500 pts. The combo potential with Righteous Smiting for chaining attacks drives up the price.
[Tomb Kings] Tomb Legion - 175 pts. The bonuses are nice but the requirements are heavy for what you get.
[Vampire Counts] Charnel Pit Carrion - 325 pts. Combined with a terrain warscroll this can give a huge area of extra attacks, and the second bonus is a nice little boost as well.
[Vampire Counts] Deathrattle Horde - 50 pts. Its a moderately high requirement for a bonus that simply isn't very good on most of the component units, and the auto-4" run isn't very good either.
Destruction
Spoiler:
[Ogres] Beastclaw Avalanche - 300 pts. Its main bonus does only apply on charges, but man is it a nice bonus. The potential for up-front damage before the enemy can really do much in a game is very high. The other benefit is a bit of icing on the cake.
[Ogres] Gutbuster Wartribe - 175 pts. Another bonus-on-the-charge, but not nearly as good. And the requirements are a bit steep.
[O&G] Bonesplittas Big Mob - 375 pts. Now this is a nice battalion. The main bonus is very powerful and the second is a nice extra.
[O&G] Great Gitmob - 200 pts. Good bonuses but not totally reliable, and having to take three separate goblin units to get them is a pain.
[O&G] Great Moonclan - 300 pts. A nice bonus, though this avoids a much higher cost because (to my knowledge) the component units don't have access to hit roll bonuses.
[O&G] Greenskinz Big Mob - 175 pts. Run+charge is pretty useful on all those footslogging orcs, and the once per game ability is nice, but overall the bonuses aren't great.
[O&G] Ironjaws Big Mob - 250 pts. Good bonuses with pretty easy requirements.
[O&G] Spiderfang Venom Mob - 150 pts. The wound roll bonus has bad synergy with the attacks it benefits and the battalion requirements are steep, though the battleshock benefits are OK.
I've already integrated a house rule where no additional attack can benefit from that same rule again. Henceforth, some bataillons seems to be out of price.
But this is a subject that will be discussed later I believe
While we are working on edits for the March update, I'd like to bring up the chaining attacks topic again. I know there was a vote to leave them be and just point cost appropriately, but that leaves out instances where otherwise balanced options are combined to create game-breaking effects, as well as leading to some units that become so high costed they are risky to take since they could easily die without doing anything.
NinthMusketeer wrote: While we are working on edits for the March update, I'd like to bring up the chaining attacks topic again. I know there was a vote to leave them be and just point cost appropriately, but that leaves out instances where otherwise balanced options are combined to create game-breaking effects, as well as leading to some units that become so high costed they are risky to take since they could easily die without doing anything.
I'm currently writing a system using all PPC cost and in our club, we've chosen to limit chaining attacks. Additional attacks can only be generated one time. No further attacks can be gained through this rule.
NinthMusketeer wrote: While we are working on edits for the March update, I'd like to bring up the chaining attacks topic again. I know there was a vote to leave them be and just point cost appropriately, but that leaves out instances where otherwise balanced options are combined to create game-breaking effects, as well as leading to some units that become so high costed they are risky to take since they could easily die without doing anything.
I'm currently writing a system using all PPC cost and in our club, we've chosen to limit chaining attacks. Additional attacks can only be generated one time. No further attacks can be gained through this rule.
PS: We also ruled out fixed turn
Yeah the new league at my flgs adopted a no-chained attacks rule as well. I don't understand what you mean in regards to fixed turns. For me, the aforementioned league uses the normal rolling for initiative but also has armies selected by wounds count, uses all sorts of scenarios, etc; it's designed for a more dynamic/narrative experience. In all my pick-up PPC games it's fixed turn order though, so much so that it is automatically assumed without even being mentioned. A double-turn can be so utterly game breaking (especially with shooting armies) that the deciding factor of who wins becomes the initiative roll. Though tbf a match of two low-magic, low-shooting armies does work using rolled initiative.
While I do not think changing PPC to fixed turn order (not changing the rules and all that) perhaps it would be a good idea to write in an alternative like such:
Optional Rule - Fixed Initiative: Some players prefer not to roll for initiative at the start of each battle round. If players opt for a fixed turn order, then instead of the normal process there is a single initiative roll at the start of the game (before either player takes a turn). The player who finished deployment first gets +1 to his roll, and each ability in a player's army that would affect initiative rolls instead grants a +1 to the owner's roll. The player that wins this first roll chooses to go first or second, and this order remains fixed for the duration of the game.
We've played about 6 games of PPC ranging from 1000-2000pts so far and the first 2 we rolled for turns, both were ruined by absolutely crazy back-2-back turns where the other player felt completely helpless
The 4 games played so far since we went to fixed turns (whoever finished deploying first got to choose) we have had 4 great games. PPC feels pretty balanced right now but we are all excited for the March update from you guys before we start a little 5 man round-robin tournament
We've played about 6 games of PPC ranging from 1000-2000pts so far and the first 2 we rolled for turns, both were ruined by absolutely crazy back-2-back turns where the other player felt completely helpless
The 4 games played so far since we went to fixed turns (whoever finished deploying first got to choose) we have had 4 great games. PPC feels pretty balanced right now but we are all excited for the March update from you guys before we start a little 5 man round-robin tournament
Oi, turns out I've missed almost the entire last half of page 7 of this thread! So, a late but sincere welcome to you Jorthax!
My group plays with alternating turns. Seems more tactical that way. You can't really plan any clever moves when your opponent gets two turns in a row (so much for that outflanking, refused flank etc). Also more close games (less extremes, where armies crumble etc). Getting two big charges with your own retributors (and striking first both times) is juicy though, but tend to break opponents. Same with healthy monsters etc. Two arcane bolts sniping characters is not good.
() The turn sequence of AoS is still a debate in many places I check - some think it brings more tension as it is, and that it brings an extra tactical layer as it means you have to plan ahead for maybe not getting the turn. Others feel it just ruins the game, as it can mean total destruction for your army without you having a proper chance to react. I personally enjoy both ways of playing the game, but I don't think the points of any unit would change either way, so I am reluctant to add in another made-up rule to the official comp document, even if stating it's optional.
I'm just wondering what you guys are thinking about the Dwarf being in the ''mercenary'' section.
Seems strange since GW put them in ''order'' faction.
If the PPC keep it close to GW, we should keep the terrain in ''mercenary'' and move the Fyreslayers to order.
() The thing here is that GW intended all factions to be able to mix in AoS, and that it's the different comps that have been limiting that (first to factions alone, then to grand alliances). In other words it is us who have been placing the limits on allying in the first place. Now the Fyreslayers fluff says they ally with anyone - even chaos is explicitly mentioned, and in the GW mind it's obvious since anyone can ally with anyone. For us att PPC it's obviously not that simple, so we thought long and hard about how we should proceed with their list, and in the end thought it made more sense to have them as mercenary allies for all factions for this reason.
I'm just wondering, his there a document that contains all the cost for the bataillon Warscoll yet?
() Maybe I've already answered this before, but each faction will have their batallion costs at the end of their list once 2016.03 version hits.
While we are working on edits for the March update, I'd like to bring up the chaining attacks topic again. I know there was a vote to leave them be and just point cost appropriately, but that leaves out instances where otherwise balanced options are combined to create game-breaking effects, as well as leading to some units that become so high costed they are risky to take since they could easily die without doing anything.
() As we voted for it not that long ago I'll not bring it up for this update to come, but I'm all for checking again for the next one. If we do limit it, I think it might be better to do it the way the SCGT comp does and have the new generated attacks hit at -1, and the next ones at -2 and so on, and not hard limiting it to only one round?
Want to play a balanced Age of Sigmar?
The Age of Sigmar Project Points Cost!
Points cost for ALL armies, including unit upgrades and special abilities!
I'll roll with it regarding the mercenary. I've already prepared for both outcome so it's fine by me.
Regarding the additional attacks, I really don't know the way to go. As NinthMusketeer said, some units will have a prohibitive cost and as Age of Sigmar goes, they'll probably die right of the bat. Limiting the additional attacks to just one time might per turn be the way to go. The -1, -2, etc to each attack seems a good idea too, but a bit more complex for starting players.
Right now, if I understand correctly, all unit are costed appropriately with there additional attacks potential?
Right now, if I understand correctly, all unit are costed appropriately with there additional attacks potential?
Well, they are supposed to be - but since there are many unbalancing factors to be counted when not limiting the extra attacks it's not easy to say for sure they truly are. But yeah, the intention is that you pay the cost for their extra attack ability right now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/28 17:37:49
Want to play a balanced Age of Sigmar?
The Age of Sigmar Project Points Cost!
Points cost for ALL armies, including unit upgrades and special abilities!
Most units on their own don't pay a huge premium for their extra attacks because the chaining potential is limited to just 6's without anything special. Rippedactyls, Hellflayers, and the Lord of Slaanesh on foot come to mind as outliers (the latter due to his command ability). Even so I'd just vote to leave it as is if there weren't the combo problem. An easy one is Skeleton Warriors + Liche Priest buff + a command ability giving them +1 to hit. While individually those units aren't a problem, combined we suddenly have skeletons generating extra attacks on a 4+, something none of the components are costed to compensate for. And the combos get worse from there. So much worse.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Most units on their own don't pay a huge premium for their extra attacks because the chaining potential is limited to just 6's without anything special. Rippedactyls, Hellflayers, and the Lord of Slaanesh on foot come to mind as outliers (the latter due to his command ability). Even so I'd just vote to leave it as is if there weren't the combo problem. An easy one is Skeleton Warriors + Liche Priest buff + a command ability giving them +1 to hit. While individually those units aren't a problem, combined we suddenly have skeletons generating extra attacks on a 4+, something none of the components are costed to compensate for. And the combos get worse from there. So much worse.
It's almost unfortunate we will always support older models during the same edition, or this problem (with the TK) would have solved itself by now...
Want to play a balanced Age of Sigmar?
The Age of Sigmar Project Points Cost!
Points cost for ALL armies, including unit upgrades and special abilities!
This is awesome! Thank you to everyone involved, so glad the magmadroth got reduced in price as I have a lovely painted one in my collection
Follow up questions before we start a mini tournament between friends, Nagash summoning double (which has been clarified before) but do they come out as 1 unit double the size, or 2 units that are identical, I suppose it matter most for some banners or command models?
NinthMusketeer wrote: When he does summon, first determine what you are summoning with the points then double the number of models.
For example, say he casts Will of Nagash using the casting value of 8 to summon 130 points of models. He could elect to summon a unit of 21 skeleton warriors (128 pts), which would then be doubled and the player instead deploys a unit of 42 skeletons.
If he instead decided to summon a unit of 14 skeleton warriors with champion, banner, and music (129 pts) he would deploy a unit of 28 skeletons, but the unit would still only have a single command group since it is only the number of models doubled.
I've played Age of Sigmar with the PPC system for about a month before I had a break during which I focused on Infinity. Now I'm back for action and I was looking at the changes that happened to this system in the past few months. The last vesrion I had was that of November 2015.
I've seen some nice changes in the system such as the inclusion of battle scrolls and the change to various point costs.
There were two changes which I must say I didn't like as much.
The first one is the fact that one can have an army within a grand alliance. Now I can understand that with all those mini armybooks GW is publicing it is difficult for some codexes to play on their own, but it really kills sometimes the fluff of the game to have armies that are an amalgam of races. Yes Seraphon could be seen fighting with Stormcast Eternals and with Elves and Humans together, but imo it ruins the flavor of each army.
The second one (and that which I found even worse) is the fact that now a player can field up to 50% of his army for monsters and warmachines. So someone now can field an army with only heroes, monsters and warmachines without any unit whatsoever. This feels just wrong as it ruins the aesthetic of an army for a list. On top of that gameplay-wise having a Chaos army for example sport 4 Hellcannons (in a 2000pts game) is not fun at all for his opponent as it is not funny at all if an Empire player uses 7 Empire Cannons.
This is not a rant post and I really like what you guys have done and your point system, but when I saw this change from your previous versions of the comp I felt the urge to give some feedback regarding it...
Terrain warscrolls are the hard counter to war machines; a baleful realmgate will let you charge them turn 1, as an example. And honestly the most exploitative army type remains a single unit of shooting troops anyway.
You may be right, so far we haven't used any of the special terrain warscrolls in our games, so I may have to give them a try.
Just to play the devil's advocate though a clever player can shield to a great extent his warmachines with orther units so even with teleport one may not be able to do much to counter a full gunline or do it fast enough for it to matter...
