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I don't know what to make of the new 7th edition outflank rules. No one really respects them where I play. Everyone breaks the rules in terms of what units with Outflank can squad up with at the beginning of the game. The rules say that you can't have units with outflank join units without outflank before the start of the game, but I have seen a guy use his scout-star, a squad of scouts with a librarian and chaplain in a land raider, but you can't deploy those units in the land raider together legally at the start of the game. This makes me doubly upset because I believed that the Farsight bomb got a nerf because we're not allowed to attach Shadowsun to Farsight's unit during deep strike setup. Does anyone else think this new change is BS?

Yea, i don't know what to say here. If people in your area aren't playing by the rules then that's a problem.

If I were you, I'd start making up my own rules and say, "well you guys were just doing what you wanted so I thought it'd be fine."

That would be very frustrating for me. I honestly would not want to play those people.

EDIT:
but legally, at the start of a game, a unit of scouts a librarian and a chaplain are able to start the game inside a landraider. However, that landraider may not outflank or scout.

There's nothing in the rules about non outflankers joining outflankers. The rule is any unit containing at least one model with this special rule is attempting to outflank the enemy.

Hmm yea thats true. I was under the impression that the OP was talking about a player outflanking a landraider.

But now that I read his the post again, i dont see that description. If they were deployed as normal, then there's no problem. But if they tried to outflank or scout, then there is an issue.

This is the rule that I'm talking about: "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

Games Workshop Ltd. Warhammer 40,000

I actually thought it was vise versa as well but it isn't so using that logic what the Space Marines player was doing is illegal and the Farsight bomb is still legal. Am I wrong?

As I understand...
If the unit has Outflank due to Infiltrate, then, the IC can't join them.
If the unit does not have the Infiltrate rule and gain Outflank by any other means, then IC can join.

Example: Hive Commander from Hive Tyrant, give a troop unit Outflank, Lets say a Tyranid Prime (IC) joins a Troop unit of Warriors, and that is the troop that gains Outflank. Warriors and Prime can outflank toghether as 1 unit.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
This is the rule that I'm talking about: "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

Games Workshop Ltd. Warhammer 40,000

I actually thought it was vise versa as well but it isn't so using that logic what the Space Marines player was doing is illegal and the Farsight bomb is still legal. Am I wrong?

The FAQ does indeed say vice versa so - An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment AS WELL AS A Unit without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a Independent Character Infiltrator during deployment

The issue at hand here, if I'm reading the thread correctly, is the OP is suggesting that because a unit HAS the ability Infiltrate, they cannot be joined AT ALL by an IC if that IC doesn't also have Infiltrate. Whether they're deploying normally or infiltrating doesn't matter...he's saying the rules keep the non-Infiltrate-having IC from joining an Infiltrate-having unit PERIOD. Am I right so far?

The problem with that is the FAQ the OP later quoted "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment" isn't making the above statement. It's saying an IC without Infiltrate cannot join a unit of "INFILTRATORS" during deployment. INFILTRATORS isn't a unit with Infiltrate (unless we're talking about Adeptus Mechanicus Sicarian Infiltrators, which would be extremely specific on GWs part)...it's a unit that is INFILTRATING. Thus...if Mephiston wants to join a unit of scouts that's going to start on the board using normal deployment...cool beans. If, however, those scouts wanted to infiltrate up the field instead, Mephiston would have to find a different unit to hang with during deployment.

I'm doing this from work and don't have my rulebook with me, but if anyone would like to post actual book rules that either corroborate or negate what I've said...feel free.

"Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves"

So, an infiltrating units that decide to Outflank are infiltrators, then IC can't join an outflanking unit (due to infiltrate).

But yes, if they don't infiltrate, and deploy as normal units, IC can join.

Right. I got it. That's incredibly confusing terminology. Technically I would call a unit with the infiltrate special rule "infiltrators" because that's just how it is in English
But I see what your saying. So a non-infiltrate IC can join a unit with infiltrate as long as the IC doesn't infiltrate.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
Right. I got it. That's incredibly confusing terminology. Technically I would call a unit with the infiltrate special rule "infiltrators" because that's just how it is in English
But I see what your saying. So a non-infiltrate IC can join a unit with infiltrate as long as the IC doesn't infiltrate.

No, it can join as long as the UNIT does not infiltrate (outflank is part of infiltrating for units with the infiltrate rules). If the IC doesn't infiltrate and the unit does, they are not in unic coherency.
We are talking about joining the unit DURING deployment, in the first turn they can do whatever they want.

To sum up as I undertood:
- IC does not infiltrate, Unit does not infiltrate, IC can join.
- IC does not infiltrate, Unit does infiltrate, IC can't join.
- IC does not infiltrate, Unit (with infiltrate) outflank, IC can't join.
- IC does not infiltrate, Unit (without infiltrate) outflank, IC can join.

The issue is, infiltrating is no longer optional.

small rule book, pg 167 wrote:
"Units that contain at least 1 model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (firend or foe) have been deployed."

There is no "you may" allowance in there. If you have infiltrate, and are deploying on the board at the start of the game, you MUST infiltrate, and you must do it after all other models without infiltrate have been placed. If an IC doesn't have infiltrate, then s/he/it must be placed before infiltrators, and thus cannot join a unit.

Shadowsun is one of the few IC's who can get around this, since she can nominate to deepstrike instead of deploying as an infiltrator, allowing her to join farsights bomb as both units start in DS reserve.

You may also chose to start in reserve and walk on and join a unit this way, but since you have to declare you're starting in reserve, you can't join and then outflank (unless both units can already outflank, then obviously you can do so).

As to the OP's dilema, the libby and chappy can join the scouts in the raider (though it may not scout, infiltrate or outflank regardless as it's not a dedicated transport and master of ambush states "non-vehicle units"), and shadowsun can join the bomb in reserve (though it must start in reserve and may not outflank or infiltrate unless he rolls a 3 on strategic). Get them to re-read their rulebooks.

Yes, but drasius, infiltrating doesn't mean that you have to infiltrate outside the Deployment zone. So you can join a unit simply by infiltrating the unit within coherency of the IC within your own deployment zone. Thus when the game begins he is attached to that unit.

Apart from that its all been cleared up for you I hope OP?

Okay so I'm a little confused myself. I take a shadowsun vespid squad. Normally I would outflank It seems to me that I have been doing that illegally right? But I can however deepstrike them as a squad correct?

It may not work with Infiltrate, but a unit with Scout and an IC can Outflank.

Solar Shock wrote:
Yes, but drasius, infiltrating doesn't mean that you have to infiltrate outside the Deployment zone. So you can join a unit simply by infiltrating the unit within coherency of the IC within your own deployment zone. Thus when the game begins he is attached to that unit.

Apart from that its all been cleared up for you I hope OP?

Nope. s/he/it has to deploy with the unit to join it pre-game. We've just established that that can't happen. The only other way to join requires ending within 2" in the movement phase (see pg 166 of the small rule book). So while you can deploy in your own DZ and join on your first turn, if they go before you do and can get LoS, then your IC is probably going to give up 1st blood.

TheBoy wrote:
Okay so I'm a little confused myself. I take a shadowsun vespid squad. Normally I would outflank It seems to me that I have been doing that illegally right? But I can however deepstrike them as a squad correct?

Correct on both counts.

Reading the last few posts (and the rule book afterwards) it does appear that I was incorrect in my thoughts. A unit with Infiltrate DOES INDEED have special deployment rules and a game general cannot just choose to deploy them normally (as if they did not have Infiltrate).

Thanks for hashing that out. Was it different in earlier editions or was I always assuming the way that worked incorrectly?

 Voidwraith wrote:
Reading the last few posts (and the rule book afterwards) it does appear that I was incorrect in my thoughts. A unit with Infiltrate DOES INDEED have special deployment rules and a game general cannot just choose to deploy them normally (as if they did not have Infiltrate).

Thanks for hashing that out. Was it different in earlier editions or was I always assuming the way that worked incorrectly?

I would assume it is a new rule/reading of the rule. As to be honest, it really doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Units with other special rules such as scout, DS, and so forth all can choose to ignore their special rule. It is a combination of wording and typically like GW for it to seem to be obvious only to find its the opposite

Solar Shock wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
Reading the last few posts (and the rule book afterwards) it does appear that I was incorrect in my thoughts. A unit with Infiltrate DOES INDEED have special deployment rules and a game general cannot just choose to deploy them normally (as if they did not have Infiltrate).

Thanks for hashing that out. Was it different in earlier editions or was I always assuming the way that worked incorrectly?

I would assume it is a new rule/reading of the rule. As to be honest, it really doesn't make a huge amount of sense. Units with other special rules such as scout, DS, and so forth all can choose to ignore their special rule. It is a combination of wording and typically like GW for it to seem to be obvious only to find its the opposite

Scouts are deployed with the rest of your normal non infiltrating units, so does the DS. Since the rule itself doesn't affect deployment.
Scouts are deployed normal, then, at the end, after infiltrators deployed, CAN redeploy.
DS units are deployed normal or left in reserves, as any other unit in the game (except for infiltrators and those that MUST enter via DS) The DS just let you choose the way they enter from reserves, not deployment.

The only rule affecting deployment is Infiltrate, that MAKE them deploy last and can do it outside deployment zone.

An IC can join a unit of scouts (that also grants outflank) and outflank with them, since they are deployed at the same step.