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I need some more cheap ObSec units for my Thousand Sons army, so I'm going to add a gaggle of cultists. The question is: should I arm them with the regular autopistol+ccw loadout, or spend the extra 1ppm to give them autoguns? I expect them to just be camping out in terrain or near objectives, and so the extra range from the autoguns might be worthwhile firepower. Or should I leave them with their default wargear, which gives them significantly more attacks if they end up in close combat?

Is the heavy stubber or flamer a worthwhile upgrade? The stubber seems to be a questionable value (especially when I could buy 5 autoguns for the same price), but the flamer might be a handy thing to have.

20-30 per unit, no upgrades, keep them as cheap as possible, the upgrades probably won't matter too much, a flamer will seldom be used, a heavy stubber cannot be used on the move, and the autoguns take away close combat attacks, marks make them super expensive.
If you want to play them campy, the autoguns might be useful, but at that point they are just a bit crappier guardsmen.

Aren't they exactly the same as guardsman at that point? With different options and no order and all but on their own I mean.

Never play against guard blobs, but if they work, wouldn't cultist blobs work just as well?

Only buy them autoguns if you have some points left over and don't know what else to spend them on. They are good as a cheap troop tax, not much else. The extra attack is handy if you do end up in combat too, I really don't like paying a point to lose that. The heavy stubber is never worth it, the flamer can be OK if you really, really don't know where to put your extra points (your characters all have melta bombs, some even gifts of mutations, you're scheduled to play a 2000 point game in 20 mins but only have an 1850 point army with you, etc.)

On blob armies: they need support, which Guard gets in the form of Orders and psychic powers (and often allied Space Marine/Inquisition ICs). Cultists don't have orders, must pay for marks to buff them, can't hide their good psykers (Daemon allies) in the blob, etc. Support, or they need to be so cheap and durable that you can rely on just drowning your enemy in bodies.

Best blob army (in my opinion) is Renegades & Heretics, but now I'm going off topic

I'd say autoguns for CSM, and bare bones for KDK

I used to throw Autoguns on them, but then I realized how little the S3 shooting would do. Is it worth it to grab two Melta Bombs? Probably not. If you want them to start on board though, go ahead and buy a Heavy Stubber to do minor contributing.

Roknar wrote:
Aren't they exactly the same as guardsman at that point? With different options and no order and all but on their own I mean.

Never play against guard blobs, but if they work, wouldn't cultist blobs work just as well?

Cultists have 6+ armor I think.

Roknar wrote:
Aren't they exactly the same as guardsman at that point? With different options and no order and all but on their own I mean.

Never play against guard blobs, but if they work, wouldn't cultist blobs work just as well?

No because all of the things Guard get that Cultists don't get are the things that make the blob work (Orders, Heavy Weapon Teams, special weapons getting a Sargent every 10 guys (who can take a power weapon and Melta bombs, Priests)

Either.

For camping cultists I actually prefer the autoguns. In cover or behind the line a min sized cultist squad can put out enough firepower to remove almost dead units who are about to grab an objective, or help to soften them up for something that can win an assault against them. Also, getting close puts you at flamer risk which is very bad for cultists.
People set them up for CC because it's a cheap option but cultists are USELESS in CC. At least they can camp and take pot shots with the autogun. Be warned, CC cultists will lose more combats than they will win (the few combats they get to).
If you've ever played guard you know you can't rely on one squad of guardsmen to do ANYTHING on their own (always send them around with another unit or hide them). This applies to cultists as well.

Alcibiades wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Aren't they exactly the same as guardsman at that point? With different options and no order and all but on their own I mean.

Never play against guard blobs, but if they work, wouldn't cultist blobs work just as well?

Cultists have 6+ armor I think.

6+ and 5+ are usually identical to all practical result, the number of AP6/- guns is not great, and you will usually be in cover with such units anyway. when it comes to CC, you'll get mowed down either way.



As for sucking in CC, that's why I said they should be CC in KDK-where getting them killed is sometimes more valuable than having them survive anyway.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Aren't they exactly the same as guardsman at that point? With different options and no order and all but on their own I mean.

Never play against guard blobs, but if they work, wouldn't cultist blobs work just as well?

No because all of the things Guard get that Cultists don't get are the things that make the blob work (Orders, Heavy Weapon Teams, special weapons getting a Sargent every 10 guys (who can take a power weapon and Melta bombs, Priests)

Guardsman blobs can have heavy weapon teams included? Oo

Roknar wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Aren't they exactly the same as guardsman at that point? With different options and no order and all but on their own I mean.

Never play against guard blobs, but if they work, wouldn't cultist blobs work just as well?

No because all of the things Guard get that Cultists don't get are the things that make the blob work (Orders, Heavy Weapon Teams, special weapons getting a Sargent every 10 guys (who can take a power weapon and Melta bombs, Priests)

Guardsman blobs can have heavy weapon teams included? Oo

Just the Heavy Weapons in the infantry squads, not the HWTs.

Okay lol, still pretty nice though.

Another option you can use the cultist models as allied renegades, this brings them more or less on par with guardsmen with the options it brings.

A helcult isn't too bad of an investment. As for the autoguns, well, it entirely depends on what you're up against. I run two squads, one with autoguns and the other with autopistols, as that's what you'll get if you buy the dark vengeance set With the entire squad dedicated to one or the other, you'll maximize what little potential is there. Either way, they're just there to soak up damage and tangle up more expensive units.

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Either.

For camping cultists I actually prefer the autoguns. In cover or behind the line a min sized cultist squad can put out enough firepower to remove almost dead units who are about to grab an objective, or help to soften them up for something that can win an assault against them. Also, getting close puts you at flamer risk which is very bad for cultists.
People set them up for CC because it's a cheap option but cultists are USELESS in CC. At least they can camp and take pot shots with the autogun. Be warned, CC cultists will lose more combats than they will win (the few combats they get to).
If you've ever played guard you know you can't rely on one squad of guardsmen to do ANYTHING on their own (always send them around with another unit or hide them). This applies to cultists as well.

Cultists aren't that useless in combat, especially Khorne Demonkin ones. They can throw down a ton of dice if they make a charge, to the point where they are basically Ork Boyz (if you're taking them in a Slaughtercult you can have FNP and Furious Charge buffs on them at the same time). And blobs of Ork Boyz are hardly the worst thing to be using to charge into CC.

i always think a flamer is worth having.

I prefer autoguns. They shoot further, and if something does get close, autoguns double up your shooting and overwatch.

Unless they are in a helcult, they'll likely lose to sweeping advance in cc, so I'd strive to avoid close combat where possible anyway.

They should be in terrain or out of line of sight always going to ground to spoil shots.

They are there to hold an objective for a few turns and get shot at, leaving the rest of your stuff unmolested possibly.

Paying the 10points extra is what kills me on equipping them with autoguns. Literally the only reason I take cultists is to cheaply fill out my troop tax. MAYBE they can crawl up to an objective if nothing else looks at them, and MAYBE they'll kill a model or two with lucky pistol or CC attacks. 90% of the time they crumble whenever they draw attention, and theyd crumble wither the had autoguns or not.

I would run two max CC squads in the Helcult formation. If i remember correctly they get fearless so long as the helbrute is alive and zealot when he dies, while the helbrute enjoys a 3+ cover save. Its a big blob that runs up the field drawing fire and tying things up.

I could see it working with camping cultists, to help mitigate the negatives stated above, you will however have to take a helbrute. I personally like them but the general internet consensus seems to be different.

Whatever you decide you should consider this if you have the points available.

It depends on your army plan/list.
I tend to combine both options. I usually take some cultist CCW option as a shield for my tanks and if I plan to play defensive autoguns with flamer. Rapid fire weapons are good enough to kill something and flamer is here for the overwatch.

IMO the pistol/melee weapon cultists are overall better for the purposes cultists do well, ie hide and take objectives or fulfill minimum troop requirements. The pistol+CCW cultists are 20% cheaper than their rifle brothers and actually tend to do their jobs better as most scoring units are more vulnerable to melee than to shooting. It is not a rare thing for units to have 2+/3+ cover saves sometimes even rerollable. Cover doesn't work in melee which is extremely useful. If you have some spare points then a flamer isn't bad but also isn't particularly great.

BTW cultists are overpriced if compared to pretty much any other codexes' similar units. However in the CSM codex they are about as good as troop choices get. I would considerably consider whether small spawn units or similar might not be a better scoring unit despite the lack of objective secure. Though if you play renegades the infantry, mutant, and zombie units in that list are actually really good.

Alcibiades wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Aren't they exactly the same as guardsman at that point? With different options and no order and all but on their own I mean.

Never play against guard blobs, but if they work, wouldn't cultist blobs work just as well?

Cultists have 6+ armor I think.

also no grenades