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Tau aren't OP, they're just no fun to play against because they remove core elements of the game (cover, moving and adapting to the enemy).

SGTPozy wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"I dull my lists down so they can have fun too. "

You shouldn't have to.

That's my point. I have to to enjoy the games. Talk to the writers at GW. I don't write the codexs. I've already admitted Eldar are OP.
But I'm making the point that Tau are the worst offenders.

Yes but you aren't making a good point. All your point is "I say they're OP and so they are" with no logic to back you up

Not entirely sure if it was in this post, but I've made plenty of examples to strengthen my argument. That's all I can do. I know everyone won't agree with me because they think their beloved Tau is perfect and completely fair.

Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

Skyhammer is totally fair. I mean what's wrong with Deep Strike Assault Turn one without any overwatch to face, letting you tactically take out core units in the enemy army?

Now Hammerheads, oh man, lemme tell you about Hammerheads. One shot straight at my Ork Trukk and blew the poor thing out of the sky! I had to footslog all my boyz! Tau OP!

/sarcasm

Martel732 wrote:
Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

I'll agree with you on Skyhammer. That thing shouldn't exist. Nor should decurion.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

I'll agree with you on Skyhammer. That thing shouldn't exist. Nor should decurion.

But they do. And that's the reality, and I have to play them because that's what everyone uses where I play. If I didn't play against strong options, I wouldn't play at all. You can't force other players to self-nerf.

Martel732 wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

I'll agree with you on Skyhammer. That thing shouldn't exist. Nor should decurion.

But they do. And that's the reality, and I have to play them because that's what everyone uses where I play. If I didn't play against strong options, I wouldn't play at all. You can't force other players to self-nerf.

That legitimate saddens me that no one where you play can take normal, fair lists.
That is an exception for you then. I'm sorry to hear it.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, they're more fair than Eldar or Necron. Or SKyhammer. Don't get me started on Skyhammer.

I'll agree with you on Skyhammer. That thing shouldn't exist. Nor should decurion.

But they do. And that's the reality, and I have to play them because that's what everyone uses where I play. If I didn't play against strong options, I wouldn't play at all. You can't force other players to self-nerf.

That legitimate saddens me that no one where you play can take normal, fair lists.
That is an exception for you then. I'm sorry to hear it.

Those ARE normal fair lists. No one is taking in illegal option. So how it is not fair for them to be able to choose legal options from their own codex? It's not an exception. There are lots of people using scatterbike/WK lists.

So far as I'm concerned, anyone who can't beat Tau, even with 2-3 riptides, needs to sit down and -think- about what they're fighting. If I can somewhat reliably beat tau with freaking khorne berzerkers and maulerfiends, you really have no leg to stand on.
I hate being that guy to spout out the 'lern2play scrubz' rant, but anyone who has a codex that was printed after Jan 1, 2015 has NO excuse in regards to defeating the cobalt-blooded fascioust meritocracy that are the Tau (seriosly kids, learn what comunism is...) Eldar can no-scatter deep strike 5 d-scythe wraithguard for about the cost of a squad of th/ss termies from what I hear. Blue/Green power armour can point-click their grav-cannons and erase a riptide with impunity. Necrons just march forward their psuedo-immortal infantry spam decurion and delete the Tau.
Has C:TE/FSE aged well? Heck yes. Fusion/Plasma suits are probably second only to warp spiders in overall shooting utility combined with excellent mobility. Riptides still do their Mobile Suite Distraction-Octopus thing. But next time to take your wraithhost, gravstar, or wraithspam decurion against a (now fairly predictable) Tau force... ask to switch sides with them andsee how "OP" they are in comparison.

Moral of the story? Being a pot or kettle, and then accusing a black coffee mug of holding too much water makes you seem like a jerk when you could be an AWESOME person to get an actual fun game in against.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Not entirely sure if it was in this post, but I've made plenty of examples to strengthen my argument. That's all I can do. I know everyone won't agree with me because they think their beloved Tau is perfect and completely fair.

Allow me to summarize the arguments you have made so far:

Everything in the Tau codex is OP except for Commander Shadowsun.
Riptides are the most OP.
Fire Warriors are OP because they have supporting fire, makerlight support, and a S5 30" rapid fire gun. This is OP compared to lasguns, the worst basic gun in 40k.
People are misreading your posts.

I'm afraid I'm still unconvinced. If you could put together an itemized list of every single unit, relic, and piece of wargear in the Tau codex and explain why every one is "OP", then I might be more sympathetic.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Not entirely sure if it was in this post, but I've made plenty of examples to strengthen my argument. That's all I can do. I know everyone won't agree with me because they think their beloved Tau is perfect and completely fair.

I don't play Tau, I just burn them off the board with SoB. I'd have more problems if my opponent bought a Riptide, sure. But he'd still need to buff it with Markerlights to make it stronger and that's a lot of points if he wants to be sure.

The Tau can be crippled by taking out Markerlight units unlike certain other armies where every unit either has their own buffs or receives them from some formation. And those poor guys carrying the MLs are soft. Pathfinders are welcome to have their 2+ cover save, my flamers care not.

StarHunter25 wrote:
So far as I'm concerned, anyone who can't beat Tau, even with 2-3 riptides, needs to sit down and -think- about what they're fighting. If I can somewhat reliably beat tau with freaking khorne berzerkers and maulerfiends, you really have no leg to stand on.
I hate being that guy to spout out the 'lern2play scrubz' rant, but anyone who has a codex that was printed after Jan 1, 2015 has NO excuse in regards to defeating the cobalt-blooded fascioust meritocracy that are the Tau (seriosly kids, learn what comunism is...) Eldar can no-scatter deep strike 5 d-scythe wraithguard for about the cost of a squad of th/ss termies from what I hear. Blue/Green power armour can point-click their grav-cannons and erase a riptide with impunity. Necrons just march forward their psuedo-immortal infantry spam decurion and delete the Tau.
Has C:TE/FSE aged well? Heck yes. Fusion/Plasma suits are probably second only to warp spiders in overall shooting utility combined with excellent mobility. Riptides still do their Mobile Suite Distraction-Octopus thing. But next time to take your wraithhost, gravstar, or wraithspam decurion against a (now fairly predictable) Tau force... ask to switch sides with them andsee how "OP" they are in comparison.

Moral of the story? Being a pot or kettle, and then accusing a black coffee mug of holding too much water makes you seem like a jerk when you could be an AWESOME person to get an actual fun game in against.

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:


30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire is ridiculous already. Let's set the scene.
12 Fire Warriors. Add a Cadre Fireblade in, put an Ethereal nearby. That one Fire Warrior team is spitting out 48!!! shots of S5 (wounding most things on 2+) AP5 (Ignoring armour of basically anything that's not MEQ) and all these have the potential of both ignoring cover and shooting at BS5.
If you have the time, pick up 48 dice and roll to hit on 2s, wound on 3s and take all them armour saves of 3+. You can't make that many saves.
Keep in mind that's from one squad.

Most things in the game are T4, so not wounding on 2s. And the Ethereal can only make one squad shot extra per turn. And Eldar can move 12", shoot 36" S6 guns (better than S5) and kill the firewarriors before they even get to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

Well, what do you think of Nids?

Because other than Flyrants, they're considered terrible, and I've tabled Tau everytime I've fought them with my Nids, using non-net lists.

And my Necrons struggle a whole 0% while fighting them.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
Not entirely sure if it was in this post, but I've made plenty of examples to strengthen my argument. That's all I can do. I know everyone won't agree with me because they think their beloved Tau is perfect and completely fair.

Allow me to summarize the arguments you have made so far:

Everything in the Tau codex is OP except for Commander Shadowsun.
Riptides are the most OP.
Fire Warriors are OP because they have supporting fire, makerlight support, and a S5 30" rapid fire gun. This is OP compared to lasguns, the worst basic gun in 40k.
People are misreading your posts.

I'm afraid I'm still unconvinced. If you could put together an itemized list of every single unit, relic, and piece of wargear in the Tau codex and explain why every one is "OP", then I might be more sympathetic.

There's only so much I can do. And your summarisations are taking the context out.
I never expected people like you to be convinced. You will just keep firing back another response after response. It's impossible for you to understand. I'm sorry, but I'll have to just ignore your further responses. It's nothing personal. Just in the interest of preventing a stalemate.

I actually recall when 6th ed tau came out and they WERE op.

Nowadays, they're still a solid army, imo, but others have gotten just ridiculous.

I am a little concerned to see what the new tau codex is going to be.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:


30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire is ridiculous already. Let's set the scene.
12 Fire Warriors. Add a Cadre Fireblade in, put an Ethereal nearby. That one Fire Warrior team is spitting out 48!!! shots of S5 (wounding most things on 2+) AP5 (Ignoring armour of basically anything that's not MEQ) and all these have the potential of both ignoring cover and shooting at BS5.
If you have the time, pick up 48 dice and roll to hit on 2s, wound on 3s and take all them armour saves of 3+. You can't make that many saves.
Keep in mind that's from one squad.

Most things in the game are T4, so not wounding on 2s. And the Ethereal can only make one squad shot extra per turn. And Eldar can move 12", shoot 36" S6 guns (better than S5) and kill the firewarriors before they even get to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

Well, what do you think of Nids?

Because other than Flyrants, they're considered terrible, and I've tabled Tau everytime I've fought them with my Nids, using non-net lists.

And my Necrons struggle a whole 0% while fighting them.

Ethereals make ALL pulse weapons fire an extra shot within 12" of him.

Also, it may be the way he's playing. I understand that not every game will end up in a win with Tau. The people you're fighting must be absolutely abhorrent with them to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I actually recall when 6th ed tau came out and they WERE op.

Nowadays, they're still a solid army, imo, but others have gotten just ridiculous.

I am a little concerned to see what the new tau codex is going to be.

I can only assume they will be buffed even more. It's the trend lately.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:


30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire is ridiculous already. Let's set the scene.
12 Fire Warriors. Add a Cadre Fireblade in, put an Ethereal nearby. That one Fire Warrior team is spitting out 48!!! shots of S5 (wounding most things on 2+) AP5 (Ignoring armour of basically anything that's not MEQ) and all these have the potential of both ignoring cover and shooting at BS5.
If you have the time, pick up 48 dice and roll to hit on 2s, wound on 3s and take all them armour saves of 3+. You can't make that many saves.
Keep in mind that's from one squad.

Most things in the game are T4, so not wounding on 2s. And the Ethereal can only make one squad shot extra per turn. And Eldar can move 12", shoot 36" S6 guns (better than S5) and kill the firewarriors before they even get to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

Well, what do you think of Nids?

Because other than Flyrants, they're considered terrible, and I've tabled Tau everytime I've fought them with my Nids, using non-net lists.

And my Necrons struggle a whole 0% while fighting them.

Ethereals make ALL pulse weapons fire an extra shot within 12" of him.

Also, it may be the way he's playing. I understand that not every game will end up in a win with Tau. The people you're fighting must be absolutely abhorrent with them to lose.

How long have you played this game? I see you're new on DakkaDakka, but how long have you been playing 40k?

BA can bring a large number of drop pods with heavy flamer armed troops and frag cannon dreadnoughts. The frag cannon dreadnoughts are especially bad, because most of your interceptor fire means nothing to them. This combination will cripple Tau in short order. However, this combo is not universally efficacious which is what saves the Tau.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:


30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire is ridiculous already. Let's set the scene.
12 Fire Warriors. Add a Cadre Fireblade in, put an Ethereal nearby. That one Fire Warrior team is spitting out 48!!! shots of S5 (wounding most things on 2+) AP5 (Ignoring armour of basically anything that's not MEQ) and all these have the potential of both ignoring cover and shooting at BS5.
If you have the time, pick up 48 dice and roll to hit on 2s, wound on 3s and take all them armour saves of 3+. You can't make that many saves.
Keep in mind that's from one squad.

Most things in the game are T4, so not wounding on 2s. And the Ethereal can only make one squad shot extra per turn. And Eldar can move 12", shoot 36" S6 guns (better than S5) and kill the firewarriors before they even get to shoot.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

I've Already stated multiple times about how I know Eldar are OP. I'm trying to say, that against Tau, basically all armies struggle.
I'm getting a little tired of this same argument over and over, but thank you for recognising that I am just trying to make the game, you know, enjoyable.

Well, what do you think of Nids?

Because other than Flyrants, they're considered terrible, and I've tabled Tau everytime I've fought them with my Nids, using non-net lists.

And my Necrons struggle a whole 0% while fighting them.

Ethereals make ALL pulse weapons fire an extra shot within 12" of him.

Also, it may be the way he's playing. I understand that not every game will end up in a win with Tau. The people you're fighting must be absolutely abhorrent with them to lose.

How long have you played this game? I see you're new on DakkaDakka, but how long have you been playing 40k?

Since 2008. Why?

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Since 2008. Why?

I'm just wondering if you ever played against Taudar, is all. That was OP.

I don't know what you normally run in your lists, but if you're having this much trouble with Tau, just apply some force to their weak spots. Shoot their Firewarriors from out of range. D the Riptides, ext. Eldar literally have an option to do anything and everything.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Since 2008. Why?

I'm just wondering if you ever played against Taudar, is all. That was OP.

I don't know what you normally run in your lists, but if you're having this much trouble with Tau, just apply some force to their weak spots. Shoot their Firewarriors from out of range. D the Riptides, ext. Eldar literally have an option to do anything and everything.

Ah, see that's not the point I'm making. It has nothing to do with me having troubles. If I want to obliterate Tau, believe me, I can. What I'm saying is that their whole codex is unbelievably strong. I'm trying to make it better for the other players.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:

Since 2008. Why?

I'm just wondering if you ever played against Taudar, is all. That was OP.

I don't know what you normally run in your lists, but if you're having this much trouble with Tau, just apply some force to their weak spots. Shoot their Firewarriors from out of range. D the Riptides, ext. Eldar literally have an option to do anything and everything.

Ah, see that's not the point I'm making. It has nothing to do with me having troubles. If I want to obliterate Tau, believe me, I can. What I'm saying is that their whole codex is unbelievably strong. I'm trying to make it better for the other players.

So....wait....how does that make them OP then? You can easily beat them, I can easily beat them with 2 different armies, and most of the internet don't have issues with them. No one at my store has issues with them. Do you know more people complaining about them?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I actually recall when 6th ed tau came out and they WERE op.

Nowadays, they're still a solid army, imo, but others have gotten just ridiculous.

I am a little concerned to see what the new tau codex is going to be.

Probably adds cheap CC weapons, and +1 WS and +1 A to all tau models.

Including drones and vehicles.

Tau aren't overpowered. Just use more kroot, pathfinders and stealth suits. Maybe some broadsides with rail rifles and crisis suits with plasma/fusion.
If you really want to handicap yourself, take a bunch of devilfish.

Any list is OP if you just spam the most effective unit.

My army's most effective unit is:

Pask [70 pts]
-Punisher w/Multimeltas, Lascannon, Dozer Blade [175 pts]
-Executioner w/Plasma Cannons, Dozer Blade [190 pts]

[435 points]

Take three or four of those, and you have a "sort of okay" list.

Stay 24" away, outside of gate shenanigans its not gonna be moving very fast.
Its a reletivley easy unit to avoid.

Anyone who says tau deny their enemy an assault phase is off their meds, the combined power and shots is nice if your charging me with one unit, but you get me on the multicharge and that power goes way down really fast.

Coming from someone who had ~10k worth of farsight enclave Tau (sold'em to expand my WE, crazy I know) I'd say the only armies that truely -struggle- against Tau the way that most struggle against the 7.5 dexes are probably orks, tyranids, and DE. And that is literally only because all 3 of those armies rely on one or two gimmicks (normally cover saves of some sort) to keep themselves alive. Everyone else has multiple tools in their arsenal to deal with C:TE.

Necrons: Most of the book, largely because of Decurion, 1-2 units of wraiths with RUIN just about any tau army, unless the tau player knows their stuff.
SW: TWC, Hellfrost and psykers.
BA: Drop podding tacs to clear infantry. Grav bikers/DC to take out suits.
CW:E basically anything in the book.
SM: Grav bikers, cents, and devs for suits. The amazingness that are new ironclads to clear out infantry. FYI podding in ironclads will RUIN Tau. they generally dont handle AV13 well, hate heavy flamers, and abhore close combat. Guess what it has all 3 of?
DA: Basically copypaste SM here, but add in your quite amazing psykers what with their debuffotron5000 powers.
GK: Can be triky but if you're good with NSF and your scatter dice love you, most of the intercepter fire can be mitigated.
IG: AV14. You have tons of it, most Tau seem to leave their fusions/hammerheads at home.
AdMech: Honestly probably the fairest fight. Two very shooty armies that are relatively squishy against one another. Comes down to whose 1st turn of shooting does more.
Knights: Primary knight armies (3-5 knights) are going to drink their tears. Good job, you are basically a hard counter, until he gets fed up and goes FSE and spams fusion suits, then you're boned.
Nids: Dont bother. Flyrants get destroyed by all Tau's skyfire. They're the rock to your scissors.
Orks: See "ignores cover". Look at your saves. Pray you have enough boyz.
DE: See Orks. Replace Boyz with CWE allies.

I play tau and the only army ive had problems with is Daemonkin. Not surewhy, but the mass amount of 12' movers makes it a pain...and everyone basically has a inv save.

Tau had one major advantage: They where the first Sixth Edition Codex.

This meant they had Rules more in line with the nature of Sixth, and also Seventh as it isn't that different, and simply functioned better within the system put forth. Couple that with Sixth Edition's move towards Shooting, and Tau being nothing but a shooting army, and you can see when they picked up the title of 'Most Powerful.' Naturally, as more and more Codex's where upgraded to the modern Rule-set, Tau became less and less powerful in comparison but that reputation has stuck. There are now many more powerful choices, Unit and Army wise, out there but a lot of people refuse to fight the Tau simply on this reputation alone. Even refusing to fight players like myself, who don't touch Rip-tides (Tar-pit lures, nothing but Tar-Pit lures) and prefer to customize characters to make them unique snowflakes instead of the 'must take' options, thinking they have no chance to win against even a fluffy Tau army.

There is one thing to keep in note, that does make them quite powerful, but is sadly something outside of the Rules of the Game. The Tau are one of the most versatile Armies out there, capable of hyper-specializing to meet any situation simply by changing out a few pieces of war-gear! If the Tau player has an idea as to what their opponent is bringing to the table they can hard-counter it easily, and often by simply changing a few lines on the roster and magnetizing pieces to appease the 'What You See' crowd. Given that many players create a few lists, due to limited number of models as those are damn expensive, it can be quite simple for the Tau player to derive hard-counters to what their opponents bring after only a few matches against them. This is the only real 'over-powered' element to the Tau, and it is not something enshrined in Rules but just a side-effect of the Codex being so well written when it comes to versatility.

It is something other Codex's need to enshrine themselves, either through a Unit for every situation or options for upgrading existing Units to fit every situation, in order to create a more balanced game overall. This isn't just to combat the second most versatile Army in the game, but simply because it is common sense for Armies to be able to field a solution to every problem if need be. Yes, I believe they are second best at versatility as I personally believe the Imperial Guard are able to do this a lot better. The big difference is that the Imperial Guard player will need to own more models to gain access to this flexibility, while the Tau only need to change War-gear. Not needing as many models to make a list for every situation is a huge 'out-of-game' buff for the Tau to have!

The real gripe against the Tau is not their over-powered nature, but their lack of 'interaction and imagination.' The Tau are more then willing to skip three of the four phases, favouring the single tactic of hiding behind cover and shooting at you, which can get boring fast. Coupled with fighting the same Units over-and-over, because the Tau player has customized the list against you like a **** or simply believes spamming riptides and missile-sides is the only way to win, and the boredom will get to you long before the dakka-dakka does. This is why most people lose to Tau, in my opinion, because battles of attrition are boring and many people do not want to prolong a boring game any more then necessary so they stop caring what mistakes they make.

Knowing that you are about to play one of the more boring games of Warhammer 40k quickly becomes a 'why bother' exercise... that is the biggest power of the Tau, demoralizing their opponents with boredom!

StarHunter25 wrote:
Coming from someone who had ~10k worth of farsight enclave Tau I'd say the only armies that truely -struggle- against Tau the way that most struggle against the 7.5 dexes are probably orks, tyranids, and DE. And that is literally only because all 3 of those armies rely on one or two gimmicks (normally cover saves of some sort) to keep themselves alive. Everyone else has multiple tools in their arsenal to deal with C:TE.

Aye. Even my SoB can give them hell. My choices of special weapons is melta and flamers, and I can drown Tau in PA bodies. So what if Firewarriors wound on 2+, I still get the 3+ saves. And if I get to firing range those little rats run or die. Once all the infantry is gone they have nothing to win with. My opponent has actually started assaulting me with crisis suits and driving Devilfish at me so I'll destroy them and take losses from the explosions...