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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 11:01:17
Subject: Are tau op?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Newcastle, NSW ,Australia
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Cheap?! We are paying 120 points for an Exterminator, and that is 4 TL Autocannon shots with a 36" range and a HB in the hull. Our tanks vary from fairly priced to a little expensive to massively over priced (Demolisher I am looking at you) and they are very very vulnerable in close assault. Or to flanking attacks. Or to Melta. And they can only move 6" per turn. and we no longer have LB.
I would gladly take an AV 13/12/10 skimmer with a Railgun over a Leman Russ any day.
There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)
that being said, Leman Russ tanks are like Tau crisis suit as in they are made for specific tasks. Don't take a punisher with pask and expect it to kill a riptide because its rending or kill a tank for the same reason. If your wondering pasks punisher will put out 3 armour saves and 3 rending shots per turn against a T6 model, and if its a riptide expect 1, or maybe 2 wounds if your lucky. see not that effective.
but that punisher against a fire warrior squad would be almost 14 wounds and 2 would be rending. after armour save you would expect to kill 9 (7 from fail saves and 2 from rending)
punisher vs crisis suits gives 3 wounds after saving throws.
punisher vs broadsides gives almost 2 wounds.
and for kicks,
Leman Russ Vanquisher has a 6.2% chance to get an explodes result on AV14. Thats only 1.2% less than a Hammerhead and the Vanquisher is only 10 more points than a Hammerhead. But for 10 points your getting 1 point more on your front and side AV's, plus you can move and shoot all your weapons.
against AV 12 it has a 7.1% to get an explodes result. not as good as the Hammerhead but mainly because its an AP2 weapon.
Just so you know your anti-tank tank is just as good as a Hammerhead i'll have you know it has a 75% chance to penetrate AV14 and an awesome 86% chance to penetrate AV12. thats some of the best odds in the game. Automatically Appended Next Post: And the Demolisher is very well priced I think. Its 45 points more than a Vindicator and gets 1 point extra to its front armour, 2 points to its side armour and 1 point to its rear armour. plus it can get upgrades like +1 cover save.
I think its very reasonable indeed.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/07/25 11:09:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 11:10:27
Subject: Re:Are tau op?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Missouri
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I like how the hammerhead railgun is now the most OP weapon in the game.
Yeah man, get those fething weak-sauce Eldar D-weapons out of here, the hammerhead railgun is true, indescribable power.
IXLoiero95XI wrote:There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)
Which is hilarious because it probably is a more effective tank hunter than the hammerhead. Ever since the advent of hull points mid-strength, high- ROF weaponry has been better at taking out vehicles than high-strength, single-shot weapons. Tanks like the hammerhead and vanquisher, famed armor killers in the fluff, are garbage compared to just spamming as many autocannons, scatter lasers, or missiles as humanly possible.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/25 11:13:19
Desubot wrote:Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 11:29:28
Subject: Are tau op?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Newcastle, NSW ,Australia
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Riptides need a six at best to glance the vehicle or risk a Nova Charge and even then they need a 6 to penetrate it{\
your also forgot to mention that to become strength 8 and be able to glance, they have a gets hot roll to make. That means a 16% chance to fail which is the same as their chance to glance meaning that a Riptide has a 2.7% to glance your AV14 providing it also scores a hit when rolling for scatter. To fire the Ordnance round and have a chance to destroy you it need to use its nova reactor. meaning 49% chance for the shot to not even be fired in the first place and all at the risk of hurting yourself.
Also the Riptide is not nearly as scary in regards to its offensive capabilities as you make it out to be. Yes it is durable but outside of getting within 12 inches of you to utilize its fusion blaster which almost will never happen because you're just asking for it to get tar pit it by swarms of Guardsmen who are fearless with a priest it will have a difficult time harming the tanks.
Fusion blaster is 18" so you do get to use it surprisingly a lot. And most of the time a Jetpack move will put you safely out of charge range assuming your trying to get close for a charge or for the extra D6 from melta.
And I completely agree. On offensive capabilities, the Riptide is more or less a pushover by himself. Without markerlights he is less likely to hit and with give cover saves to enemy models he shoots. Even with the IA he doesn't do a lot of damage quickly without markerlight support unless your lucky and get direct hits all the time. and if your me, you need to be lucky enough to pass your gets hot roll once a game.
And without markerlights a HBC Riptide is even more of a joke.
But his effectiveness is boosted considerably because unlike other useless models he with be alive most of, if not the entire game length giving him a chance to actually kill something.
IMOH Automatically Appended Next Post: Sidstyler wrote:I like how the hammerhead railgun is now the most OP weapon in the game.
Yeah man, get those fething weak-sauce Eldar D-weapons out of here, the hammerhead railgun is true, indescribable power.
IXLoiero95XI wrote:There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)
Which is hilarious because it probably is a more effective tank hunter than the hammerhead. Ever since the advent of hull points mid-strength, high- ROF weaponry has been better at taking out vehicles than high-strength, single-shot weapons. Tanks like the hammerhead and vanquisher, famed armor killers in the fluff, are garbage compared to just spamming as many autocannons, scatter lasers, or missiles as humanly possible.
True, spamming mid-strength weaponry is probably more effective, but for some reason I always find myself taking my Hammerhead with Longstike and my pair of railsides, as well as the odd fusion blaster and my riptides lol I do struggle against armour but I love my Railguns. On a quick note, I do find Longstrike mostly useless because he always rolls a one to hit but if i ever use markerlights on him he rolls 5's and 6's hit lol its almost like the curse of the meltagun.
and just because i cant help myself, the Exterminator autocannon will average 1 hull point per shooting attack against AV 12. where as the Hammerhead will only average 0.5 hull points, making the exterminator twice as effective at taking hull points lol.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/25 11:39:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 11:46:54
Subject: Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The difference is that you take hammerheads for lols, and if you want real anti tank, you have it in your codex. Missilisids, fusion suits etc. IG options you list that are a worse then the tau options you take for fun have no replacment. We don't have a high resilient multi shot unit with medium strenght. We don't have fast moving and long range melta, that doesn't die after it somehow gets in to range.
And the argument that riptides are not that good, because they need marker lights? Show me an tau army without them, what is worse those market light units are easier to protect and hide then IG order givers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 11:50:12
Subject: Are tau op?
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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IXLoiero95XI wrote:Cheap?! We are paying 120 points for an Exterminator, and that is 4 TL Autocannon shots with a 36" range and a HB in the hull. Our tanks vary from fairly priced to a little expensive to massively over priced (Demolisher I am looking at you) and they are very very vulnerable in close assault. Or to flanking attacks. Or to Melta. And they can only move 6" per turn. and we no longer have LB.
I would gladly take an AV 13/12/10 skimmer with a Railgun over a Leman Russ any day.
There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)
that being said, Leman Russ tanks are like Tau crisis suit as in they are made for specific tasks. Don't take a punisher with pask and expect it to kill a riptide because its rending or kill a tank for the same reason. If your wondering pasks punisher will put out 3 armour saves and 3 rending shots per turn against a T6 model, and if its a riptide expect 1, or maybe 2 wounds if your lucky. see not that effective.
but that punisher against a fire warrior squad would be almost 14 wounds and 2 would be rending. after armour save you would expect to kill 9 (7 from fail saves and 2 from rending)
punisher vs crisis suits gives 3 wounds after saving throws.
punisher vs broadsides gives almost 2 wounds.
and for kicks,
Leman Russ Vanquisher has a 6.2% chance to get an explodes result on AV14. Thats only 1.2% less than a Hammerhead and the Vanquisher is only 10 more points than a Hammerhead. But for 10 points your getting 1 point more on your front and side AV's, plus you can move and shoot all your weapons.
against AV 12 it has a 7.1% to get an explodes result. not as good as the Hammerhead but mainly because its an AP2 weapon.
Just so you know your anti-tank tank is just as good as a Hammerhead i'll have you know it has a 75% chance to penetrate AV14 and an awesome 86% chance to penetrate AV12. thats some of the best odds in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the Demolisher is very well priced I think. Its 45 points more than a Vindicator and gets 1 point extra to its front armour, 2 points to its side armour and 1 point to its rear armour. plus it can get upgrades like +1 cover save.
I think its very reasonable indeed.
No, that is my cheapest tank. My tankhunter is far pricier.
Okay, so those 2 sponsons are what, another 15 - 20 points. So now we have a 135 - 140 point infantry killer. But you still get your cover saves.
The Vanquisher is a joke tank right now and is about as nasty as a wet hanky against armour. From your comments thus far I can see that you have never used IG. Put bluntly a Vanquisher has a 50% chance of hitting. Then it has a 1/6 chance of blowing the target, assuming it penetrates (likely) and the target does not have cover/does not jink (unlikely) And it cant fire HE shells like the railgun.
Oh, and your Hammerhead has a 50% chance to damage AV14 too so, you know... Or if it is ordnance (I cant recall) then that is increased to a 75% chance.
It is also slower, no LRBT can fire its secondary weapons at anything other than snapfire if its main gun is an ordnance weapon, and the extra armour is negligible with the D strength spam.
The Demolisher is considered over priced by most of the community. You are paying 170 points for a Demolisher cannon and a Heavy Bolter. Now bare in mind that to function it has to get close to the enemy, a position that leaves the tank incredibly vulnerable to enemy troops and to get there it has to spend 2-3 turns crossing the board. If it makes it in then once again it is not my problem.
So, a BS3 14/13/11 tank with a Demolisher cannon and a HB that can only move 6" a turn is worth 170 points? I think not.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 12:32:58
Subject: Are tau op?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Newcastle, NSW ,Australia
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master of ordinance wrote: IXLoiero95XI wrote:Cheap?! We are paying 120 points for an Exterminator, and that is 4 TL Autocannon shots with a 36" range and a HB in the hull. Our tanks vary from fairly priced to a little expensive to massively over priced (Demolisher I am looking at you) and they are very very vulnerable in close assault. Or to flanking attacks. Or to Melta. And they can only move 6" per turn. and we no longer have LB.
I would gladly take an AV 13/12/10 skimmer with a Railgun over a Leman Russ any day.
There's your problem, taking a glorified auto cannon as your tank hunter (just assuming lol)
that being said, Leman Russ tanks are like Tau crisis suit as in they are made for specific tasks. Don't take a punisher with pask and expect it to kill a riptide because its rending or kill a tank for the same reason. If your wondering pasks punisher will put out 3 armour saves and 3 rending shots per turn against a T6 model, and if its a riptide expect 1, or maybe 2 wounds if your lucky. see not that effective.
but that punisher against a fire warrior squad would be almost 14 wounds and 2 would be rending. after armour save you would expect to kill 9 (7 from fail saves and 2 from rending)
punisher vs crisis suits gives 3 wounds after saving throws.
punisher vs broadsides gives almost 2 wounds.
and for kicks,
Leman Russ Vanquisher has a 6.2% chance to get an explodes result on AV14. Thats only 1.2% less than a Hammerhead and the Vanquisher is only 10 more points than a Hammerhead. But for 10 points your getting 1 point more on your front and side AV's, plus you can move and shoot all your weapons.
against AV 12 it has a 7.1% to get an explodes result. not as good as the Hammerhead but mainly because its an AP2 weapon.
Just so you know your anti-tank tank is just as good as a Hammerhead i'll have you know it has a 75% chance to penetrate AV14 and an awesome 86% chance to penetrate AV12. thats some of the best odds in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the Demolisher is very well priced I think. Its 45 points more than a Vindicator and gets 1 point extra to its front armour, 2 points to its side armour and 1 point to its rear armour. plus it can get upgrades like +1 cover save.
I think its very reasonable indeed.
No, that is my cheapest tank. My tankhunter is far pricier.
Okay, so those 2 sponsons are what, another 15 - 20 points. So now we have a 135 - 140 point infantry killer. But you still get your cover saves.
The Vanquisher is a joke tank right now and is about as nasty as a wet hanky against armour. From your comments thus far I can see that you have never used IG. Put bluntly a Vanquisher has a 50% chance of hitting. Then it has a 1/6 chance of blowing the target, assuming it penetrates (likely) and the target does not have cover/does not jink (unlikely) And it cant fire HE shells like the railgun.
Oh, and your Hammerhead has a 50% chance to damage AV14 too so, you know... Or if it is ordnance (I cant recall) then that is increased to a 75% chance.
It is also slower, no LRBT can fire its secondary weapons at anything other than snapfire if its main gun is an ordnance weapon, and the extra armour is negligible with the D strength spam.
The Demolisher is considered over priced by most of the community. You are paying 170 points for a Demolisher cannon and a Heavy Bolter. Now bare in mind that to function it has to get close to the enemy, a position that leaves the tank incredibly vulnerable to enemy troops and to get there it has to spend 2-3 turns crossing the board. If it makes it in then once again it is not my problem.
So, a BS3 14/13/11 tank with a Demolisher cannon and a HB that can only move 6" a turn is worth 170 points? I think not.
An Eradicator is your infantry killer, why try and make an exterminator be something it's not? Just a waste of points IMHO
A railguns function is not to glance vehicles to death, it would take an average of like 4 or 5 turns for that.
The blast on a Hammerhead is a purchased upgrade just so you know.
I don't play guard but I play against them, and there more than enough trouble trust me.
Hammerhead isn't ordnance.
Demolished cannon has 24" range, same as a lot of weapons in 40k. It's not getting close, and I don't know how you do your deployment but you and your opponent are seperated by a 24" gap, if you move 6" you will be in range of something more often then not. You shouldn't need two or three turns driving aimlessly. If it is incredibly vulnerable, that's because it's got a bullseye on it. If you park a weapon like that in the midfield, people are going to ignore your other units because it's the most immediate threat to their near by units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 12:45:10
Subject: Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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master of ordinance wrote:
No, that is my cheapest tank. My tankhunter is far pricier.
Okay, so those 2 sponsons are what, another 15 - 20 points. So now we have a 135 - 140 point infantry killer. But you still get your cover saves.
The Vanquisher is a joke tank right now and is about as nasty as a wet hanky against armour. From your comments thus far I can see that you have never used IG. Put bluntly a Vanquisher has a 50% chance of hitting. Then it has a 1/6 chance of blowing the target, assuming it penetrates (likely) and the target does not have cover/does not jink (unlikely) And it cant fire HE shells like the railgun.
Oh, and your Hammerhead has a 50% chance to damage AV14 too so, you know... Or if it is ordnance (I cant recall) then that is increased to a 75% chance.
It is also slower, no LRBT can fire its secondary weapons at anything other than snapfire if its main gun is an ordnance weapon, and the extra armour is negligible with the D strength spam.
The Demolisher is considered over priced by most of the community. You are paying 170 points for a Demolisher cannon and a Heavy Bolter. Now bare in mind that to function it has to get close to the enemy, a position that leaves the tank incredibly vulnerable to enemy troops and to get there it has to spend 2-3 turns crossing the board. If it makes it in then once again it is not my problem.
So, a BS3 14/13/11 tank with a Demolisher cannon and a HB that can only move 6" a turn is worth 170 points? I think not.
A few points:
-If you take the Exterminator then yes they would still get their Cover Saves, the Eradicator on the other hand negates that completely.
-I agree the Vanquisher is not that great UNLESS you take it from Imperial Armor Volume #1 Second Edition and the Armored Company list. You can give it a Stubber that acts like an old Scatter Laser (if it hits it Twin Links the Vanquisher Cannon) and Beast Hunter Shells (S8 AP2 Small Blast, Instant Death).
-The Railgun is only a Heavy 1 and your Math is flawed, you are not taking into account every aspect of the equation such as the Roll to Hit and Penetrate and then you have to take in other variables such as Cover. It suffers from the same problem as the Vanquisher where it is only a single shot with subpar Ballistic Skill, hence the dependency on Marker Lights and a unit that is dependent upon another is not what I would call cost effective.
-There is an actual debate on the Ordnace Weapons firing with Sponsons that I discovered when I had my Tanks. Apparently in the Rulebook it states you pick and choose which weapon to fire, so what is stopping you from firing the Sponsons First and then the main gun? Again id have to check it again with my Rulebook but just giving you a heads up.
-Also a 24 inch range weapon really is not that bad, one of the things that is exaggerated the most on here is the ranges of weapons. People often talk like the tables are infinitely huge when in reality because of the table limitations its not nearly as bad as its made out to be. And you need to think of it as effectively having a 30 inch range when combined with movement and if your having to spend more then 2 turns to get in range then I would be surprised. Also it is a DEMOLISHER CANNON! S10 AP2 is nothing to sneeze at and it terrifies most opponents, however between you and me I think a 10pt. decrease would be helpful as I do think its a little overcosted myself.
Makumba wrote:The difference is that you take hammerheads for lols, and if you want real anti tank, you have it in your codex. Missilisids, fusion suits etc. IG options you list that are a worse then the tau options you take for fun have no replacment. We don't have a high resilient multi shot unit with medium strenght. We don't have fast moving and long range melta, that doesn't die after it somehow gets in to range.
And the argument that riptides are not that good, because they need marker lights? Show me an tau army without them, what is worse those market light units are easier to protect and hide then IG order givers.
A couple points:
-Marker Lights are easily countered by Wyrvens and Eradicators because you NEED them to have LOS when the game starts, you move them then have to snap shot because they are a Heavy 1 weapon. Also they are the Tau armies WEAKNESS, its the easiest thing to identify. Kill the Marker Lights first and the rest of the army is hurt.
-Missile Sides wont do anything against Leman Russes unless they are gifted a side shot and even then they need 6's to even glance it.
-Fusion Suits are great options, if they don't scatter when they arrive and hit with their Fusion Blasters, again dependent on Marker Lights.
-Im sorry? I fail to see how an Armor 14 tank is not considered a high resilient or with Punishers and Exterminators a multi-shot unit.
And I just have to point out again, why is the Ally option continuously ignored by Imperium players? Still easily your greatest strength at the moment.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/25 12:46:37
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 12:48:31
Subject: Re:Are tau op?
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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I have an Eradicator, true they are great against medium infantry but with a 36" range it has to endure the Tau shooting phase to get within effective range.
No matter how you put it the Demolisher is still massively over priced. I use a Thunderer instead, it is 40 points cheaper and actually worth something.
Those three turns of driving are allowing for Devilfish airlifts dragging everything out of the way. But if not then it is two turns to advance within effective range.
And dont forget that it has to endure:
Stealth suits
Battle suits
Riptides
Other crazy stuff
Just to get there.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 13:02:01
Subject: Re:Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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master of ordinance wrote:I have an Eradicator, true they are great against medium infantry but with a 36" range it has to endure the Tau shooting phase to get within effective range.
No matter how you put it the Demolisher is still massively over priced. I use a Thunderer instead, it is 40 points cheaper and actually worth something.
Those three turns of driving are allowing for Devilfish airlifts dragging everything out of the way. But if not then it is two turns to advance within effective range.
And dont forget that it has to endure:
Stealth suits
Battle suits
Riptides
Other crazy stuff
Just to get there.
-The Eradicator effectively has as 42 inch range (including movement) and it really can endure the Tau Shooting phase from that distance thanks to its Armor 14 front hull. Tau long range firepower that can effectively hurt an Eradicator is almost completely S8, besides the Riptide (to make it S9 it has a 1/3 chance to fail and get no save of any kind unless you get an expensive Feel no Pain upgrade) and the Hammerhead (which already mentioned has the same drawbacks as the Vanquisher). Also the Eradicator is VERY cheap even with Heavy Bolters and even better you can take squadrons of them!
-I agree the Demolisher is overcosted, but Devilfish shenanigans can be limited by good Deployment and Movement, remember you can still gun it 12 inches forward if you are out of range ensuring you get that turn 2 shot.
To break down the units you listed:
-Battle Suits: Great at taking out armor with Deep Striking Fusion Suits, however they wont appear on the table until Turn 2 at the earliest and Turn 4 at the latest. Also they have the potential to Scatter unless they take Farsight or get lucky on the Warlord table and then they have to bank on Marker Lights (which by turn 2 you will have made them a primary target) or be forced to rely on BS3. Also chances are you will have the back and side armor covered by your cheap infantry as you move up the table.
-Stealth Suits: They can only take x2 Fusion Blasters max per squad and they are VERY expensive points wise. Ironically this is where the Eradicator shines as well because it ignores cover! Granted they would still get a 3+ armor save however its much better then a 2+ armor save and you still wound on 2's.
-Riptides: Again a Riptide when it comes to Long Range Firepower against Heavy Armor is really only truly scary against Infantry. First it will have to pass its Nova Charge with a 1/3 chance to hurt itself, then it has to shoot a Large Blast at BS3 (unless supported by Markerlights) for a single S9 AP2 Ordnance hit, it will need to roll a 5 minimum on 2 dice which does favor the Tau player when it comes to Averages but crazy things have happened, then if it Penetrates it has to roll a 6 to blow you up. This is of course not counting if you are in cover or not, Psychic power ect. And the Fusion Blaster has an 18 inch range (so it would have to be within 9 inches to get the Melta bonus) and why would you ever move that close? Your doing the same thing he is doing but you can do it better.
-Other Crazy Stuff: May need to elaborate here ive never heard of this unit?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/25 13:03:15
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 13:44:32
Subject: Are tau op?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Ashiraya wrote:Yeah, the Tau Codex as a whole is certainly not OP. If I see Riptides, I go nopenopenope, sure. But if I see stealth suits or something, I don't really see them as big problem. And I play CSM, lol.
And I play SoB... the most neglected army left after the squats were squatted. I have no problems with Tau. Ofc, it could be because I have no special ponies they can shut down, and no choices of weapons that don't work perfectly against Tau. My longest-range gun is on a tank (Exorcist, 48'') and then there's Heavy Bolters (36'') that I never use. Everything else is 24 or 12 inches or flamers - Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Multimeltas, meltaguns, oh, and that's it. Transports are either Rhinos or Immolators (basically a SoB Razorback equivalent with TL Heavy Flamers or Multimeltas). Funny how I can use a suboptimal army to totally shut down the OP Tau.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 14:04:31
Subject: Are tau op?
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Storming Storm Guardian
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master of ordinance wrote: Farseer Uruvion wrote: gmaleron wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.
Nothing imaginary about it, yes they are a strong army but nothing higher than upper mid tier at the moment especially when compared to the armies you just listed. As mentioned by several people the Tau only have a few units that are good and a lot of the Codex is useless. Maybe you can explain why you think Tau are overpowered instead of just saying they are would be a great help so I can better understand your reasoning.
Farseer Uruvion wrote:
You obviously haven't been reading my posts. I always claim that Eldar are OP too. I'm referencing it in comparison to the other fair codexes.
Before you try making a counterpoint, please do some sort of research. You're taking everything out of proportion.
I only ever said I use dual Wraithknights to deal with Tau, just so I don't have to deal with the cheese. If I play against anyone, I use weakened lists or just don't use Eldar at all.
Please get help for your ignorance. It will help you in life.
You literally said that everything in the Tau codex is OP a couple pages ago so you can't get on peoples case about ignorance before you look at yourself. And the fact that you think a standard Tau Army is to me screams that you as a general may need to change some things up when playing against them, instead of bitching and moaning about it why not talk to Tau players to try to find good ways to counter them? And don't pull the whole nothing works bowl excuse because trust me I play in a very competitive environment and my Tau have the ability to lose just like every army.
I'm not going to take this post seriously if you're not able to think with intelligence.
Every army has a potential to lose. Of course they do.
You're missing my point, like many others.
Let me try and spell it out for you nice and slow...
Eldar are overpowered. Okay? Still with me?
Necrons are slightly OP. Not everything is for them though.
Daemons are OP.
Tau are overpowered. No doubt about it. Are you seeing what I'm trying to point out?
Stop trying to rush to your battlestations just because your saintly Tau are being talked about.
I'm starting to lose effort in this as people just spout out illogical arguments spurred by blind ignorance.
Take a step back from your device and reevaluate yourself before posting. It will help.
Yet another exalt Farseer.
Do you know that he actually had the gaul to call me inexperienced in the other thread? I have been playing this game for years and years, probably long before he got involved and he calls me inexperienced?
Oh, and he was also calling for yet more buffs to the Tau.
Some people....
I know. It's ridiculous. I've been playing since 2008, which is still a relatively long time.
And, the buffs... I can't believe that's even being called for. How utterly atrocious.
Also, I give you my exalts too. Automatically Appended Next Post: This will just keep going on and on with no end result. I'm thinking that this is now my leave.
I've proved my points completely. No need to continue on.
If you disagree with me, I respect your right to. But just stay out of my way. I've nothing else to prove.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/25 14:15:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 15:08:53
Subject: Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Except your points were flawed.
The 48 S5 Ap5 shots you listed, hitting on 2's and wounding on 3's is dependant on three things - staying still, markerlights and rapid fire range.
Maelstrom solves the static gunline issue, since you can simply play to objectives.
Markerlights can be easily dealt with and should be the first things to go when fighting Tau.
Rapid Fire is a little more trickier to deal with, but you can remove the support elements (Ethereals, Cadre Fireblades) through Sniping/Precision Shots/Barrage and reduce the damage output. Pinning also helps since they are only leadership 7 and then snap shoot/can't fire overwatch.
96 S5 shots that hit on fours? I'll just repeat what I just said above, since you'll have the same answers. Also markerlights (which should have been gone) only work for one unit at a time, so that's not Tau being OP, thats exceptional dice rolling for Snap Shots. Cadre Fireblade also only works for the unit he's with and I'd be fine with that, as it means he's not taking Commanders which are hands down the best HQ in that Codex.
The Riptide, I'll give you, is OP, but it's still easily dealt with. Tarpit, AP2, ignoring are all fine strategies against it.
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YMDC = nightmare |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 15:19:35
Subject: Are tau op?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Unfortunately, while Markerlights "can be easily dealt with"--they aren't operating in a vacuum and Tau players aren't considerate enough to throw them out in the open.
Not every army has swathes of Ignore Cover weaponry.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 15:28:56
Subject: Are tau op?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Kanluwen wrote:Unfortunately, while Markerlights "can be easily dealt with"--they aren't operating in a vacuum and Tau players aren't considerate enough to throw them out in the open.
Not every army has swathes of Ignore Cover weaponry.
Something has to be exposed. And since Tau don't use Devilfish anymore, it's not a troop transport....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 15:42:40
Subject: Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Correct you wouldn't put them out in the open and not every one has Ignore Cover.
But, every army has long range weaponry that can easily deal with them, or can get close enough quickly enough to remove them or at least reduce the amount of Markerlights you're facing. Think Drop Pods, TFC, FMCs, Artillery, Scatter Lasers...list goes on.
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YMDC = nightmare |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 15:47:33
Subject: Are tau op?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Frozocrone wrote:Correct you wouldn't put them out in the open and not every one has Ignore Cover.
But, every army has long range weaponry that can easily deal with them, or can get close enough quickly enough to remove them or at least reduce the amount of Markerlights you're facing. Think Drop Pods, TFC, FMCs, Artillery, Scatter Lasers...list goes on.
Do you really believe that?
Because it's not true. The most effective way for my Skitarii to remove Markerlight equipped units are Rangers/Vanguard with TAs(60" range Sniper, Armourbane) firing at them with an Omnispex in the unit.
That is 3 shots, tops, outside of Markerlight range that reliably will subtract a single point of cover.
Alternatively I can use Dunecrawlers or Ballistarii...but depending on the weapons used, that's like killing a unit of Fire Warriors with a Baneblade shot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 15:49:43
Subject: Are tau op?
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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I might move back to Tau. Going to wait on the new CSM book to drop first, though i wont hold my breath for a berserker buff.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 15:54:42
Subject: Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kanluwen wrote: Frozocrone wrote:Correct you wouldn't put them out in the open and not every one has Ignore Cover.
But, every army has long range weaponry that can easily deal with them, or can get close enough quickly enough to remove them or at least reduce the amount of Markerlights you're facing. Think Drop Pods, TFC, FMCs, Artillery, Scatter Lasers...list goes on.
Do you really believe that?
Because it's not true. The most effective way for my Skitarii to remove Markerlight equipped units are Rangers/Vanguard with TAs(60" range Sniper, Armourbane) firing at them with an Omnispex in the unit.
That is 3 shots, tops, outside of Markerlight range that reliably will subtract a single point of cover.
Alternatively I can use Dunecrawlers or Ballistarii...but depending on the weapons used, that's like killing a unit of Fire Warriors with a Baneblade shot.
Or, you could use your Battle Brothers Blood Angels allies and stick them in Drop Pods, as has proven effective.
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YMDC = nightmare |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 15:59:35
Subject: Are tau op?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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An army shouldn't have to use allies to be effective.
Tau and Ad Mech are a bad matchup because every single unit in the Skitarii dex dies to missile pods, which can be spammed to infinity with Tau.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/25 16:02:14
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 16:02:21
Subject: Are tau op?
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Frozocrone wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Frozocrone wrote:Correct you wouldn't put them out in the open and not every one has Ignore Cover.
But, every army has long range weaponry that can easily deal with them, or can get close enough quickly enough to remove them or at least reduce the amount of Markerlights you're facing. Think Drop Pods, TFC, FMCs, Artillery, Scatter Lasers...list goes on.
Do you really believe that?
Because it's not true. The most effective way for my Skitarii to remove Markerlight equipped units are Rangers/Vanguard with TAs(60" range Sniper, Armourbane) firing at them with an Omnispex in the unit.
That is 3 shots, tops, outside of Markerlight range that reliably will subtract a single point of cover.
Alternatively I can use Dunecrawlers or Ballistarii...but depending on the weapons used, that's like killing a unit of Fire Warriors with a Baneblade shot.
Or, you could use your Battle Brothers Blood Angels allies and stick them in Drop Pods, as has proven effective.
First of all, the list you're referring to isn't even Blood Angels. It's Flesh Tearers, and it's a formation from the Leviathan campaign books.
Second of all, no? It's my SKITARII army, not my SKITARII and FLESH TEARERS TAXI SERVICE army.
Quite frankly though--"You have X as Allies" isn't a valid response. It would be like me telling you "Play Farsight Enclaves instead of Tau Empire" to any complaint you might have about the Tau Empire book.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/25 16:04:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 16:28:09
Subject: Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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They still share the faction Blood Angels.
That said, I do agree that you shouldn't have to use allies to be an effective army. I would remove the allies matrix given the chance.
How well do Infiltrators work on the tabletop? 15 S4 with Infiltrate cause on average 2.7 wounds, assuming you shot at Pathfinders in ruins with Stealth up. Against Drones, you still killed 2.04 (done at BS5 with the Doctrine).
EDIT: Just seen the points for that, that's not cost efficient at all! Skitarii really do need something.
Also I don't have complaints about the Tau Codex, aside the Riptide, Broadsides and the Buffmander models. The thing I don't like most about them is the way they remove core elements of the game.
@Verveidi
Missile Pods are too cheap I will admit. Even my Tau friend admits that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/25 16:32:33
YMDC = nightmare |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 16:54:28
Subject: Re:Are tau op?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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"FLESH TEARERS TAXI SERVICE"
This is now the #1 use for BA and it's frankly disgusting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 17:01:05
Subject: Re:Are tau op?
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Screaming Shining Spear
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Martel732 wrote:"FLESH TEARERS TAXI SERVICE"
This is now the #1 use for BA and it's frankly disgusting.
I agree. The detachment is supposed to enable people to take lots of Assault Marines, not fill the CAD with drop pods for one's allies.
Seriously though, Tau are not OP, at least compared to the newer codexes. Powerful, yes, but hardly overpowered or broken. If anything is needed for the Tau codex, it's a redesign not a nerf.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/25 17:27:08
Subject: Re:Are tau op?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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TheNewBlood wrote:Martel732 wrote:"FLESH TEARERS TAXI SERVICE"
This is now the #1 use for BA and it's frankly disgusting.
I agree. The detachment is supposed to enable people to take lots of Assault Marines, not fill the CAD with drop pods for one's allies.
Seriously though, Tau are not OP, at least compared to the newer codexes. Powerful, yes, but hardly overpowered or broken. If anything is needed for the Tau codex, it's a redesign not a nerf.
As I have said multiple times, the Riptide is the most outrageous thing in the list. S7 spam is strong, yes, but those units can be neutralized reasonably.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/27 07:20:14
Subject: Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Farseer Uruvion wrote: master of ordinance wrote: Farseer Uruvion wrote: gmaleron wrote: master of ordinance wrote:Really? In what imaginary world are Tau not over powered? Its the same with the Dark Angels, the Necrons, the Eldar and the Space Marines. They just beat the seven bells of hell out of their opponents and stomp all over them.
Nothing imaginary about it, yes they are a strong army but nothing higher than upper mid tier at the moment especially when compared to the armies you just listed. As mentioned by several people the Tau only have a few units that are good and a lot of the Codex is useless. Maybe you can explain why you think Tau are overpowered instead of just saying they are would be a great help so I can better understand your reasoning.
Farseer Uruvion wrote:
You obviously haven't been reading my posts. I always claim that Eldar are OP too. I'm referencing it in comparison to the other fair codexes.
Before you try making a counterpoint, please do some sort of research. You're taking everything out of proportion.
I only ever said I use dual Wraithknights to deal with Tau, just so I don't have to deal with the cheese. If I play against anyone, I use weakened lists or just don't use Eldar at all.
Please get help for your ignorance. It will help you in life.
You literally said that everything in the Tau codex is OP a couple pages ago so you can't get on peoples case about ignorance before you look at yourself. And the fact that you think a standard Tau Army is to me screams that you as a general may need to change some things up when playing against them, instead of bitching and moaning about it why not talk to Tau players to try to find good ways to counter them? And don't pull the whole nothing works bowl excuse because trust me I play in a very competitive environment and my Tau have the ability to lose just like every army.
I'm not going to take this post seriously if you're not able to think with intelligence.
Every army has a potential to lose. Of course they do.
You're missing my point, like many others.
Let me try and spell it out for you nice and slow...
Eldar are overpowered. Okay? Still with me?
Necrons are slightly OP. Not everything is for them though.
Daemons are OP.
Tau are overpowered. No doubt about it. Are you seeing what I'm trying to point out?
Stop trying to rush to your battlestations just because your saintly Tau are being talked about.
I'm starting to lose effort in this as people just spout out illogical arguments spurred by blind ignorance.
Take a step back from your device and reevaluate yourself before posting. It will help.
Yet another exalt Farseer.
Do you know that he actually had the gaul to call me inexperienced in the other thread? I have been playing this game for years and years, probably long before he got involved and he calls me inexperienced?
Oh, and he was also calling for yet more buffs to the Tau.
Some people....
I know. It's ridiculous. I've been playing since 2008, which is still a relatively long time.
And, the buffs... I can't believe that's even being called for. How utterly atrocious.
Also, I give you my exalts too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This will just keep going on and on with no end result. I'm thinking that this is now my leave.
I've proved my points completely. No need to continue on.
If you disagree with me, I respect your right to. But just stay out of my way. I've nothing else to prove.
Thank you for kindly leaving the thread.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/27 14:18:38
Subject: Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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To me, Tau are not so much OP as they are boring and eliminate certain tactical aspects from the game.
It's not because they have a gunline. I've played gunlines while having just as much fun as playing an army entirely focussed on CC. However, Tau have 2 things that, when combined, take out a large chunk of tactical gameplay.
First of all, the elephant in the room, markerlights. People tell you to 'just kill the markerlights', while in reality, that's not as simple as people make it out to be.
First of all, they've got long range, so you they can be held back rather easily, and they'r'e VERY cheap. So this means I will need long range guns in order to deal with them if I want to do it sooner rather than later. Now, most guns that can reach Pathfinders easily, at least in the armies I collect, are also the stronger guns. However, the thing is that these guns don't a particularly high chance at killing the pathfinders, because they get a 4+ cover save.
If I want to get rid of around 130 points of pathfinders that are split into 2 units, I'll probably need around 7 to 10 times that points value in firepower. Good... job done, markerlights gone, now I win right? Except there's still 1720 points of Tau left on the field. In the time it took me to get rid of those markerlights, 130 points of Hammerhead just deleted 200 points of vehicle in a single shot because he got 2 markerlights in before I was able to remove every markerlight in the game. On the other side of the table, half a squad disappears to a single Riptide because again I didn't remove every single markerlight in a single turn. Meanwhile, in the middle, I lost another squad because I didn't remove every single markerlight on the board before the missilesides took a shot. I have armies (Skitarii for example) that almost rely solely on cover saves, not because I built my list that way, but because the army is just designed that way. Let me tell you, those games are some of the shittiest I've ever played.
That brings me to the second thing that makes Tau boring. You know what I find exciting about building an army? Having to make sure I balance out my squads/equipment so that I'm able to deal with stuff. If I bring nothing but heavy bolters, I will run into a big F'ing problem when there's a Ghost Ark on the table. On the other hand, if I bring nothing but Lascannons, I'm probably fethed if a green tide shows up.
You know what's the polar opposite of this (and thus, completely, utterly boring to me)? Having a single gun that A) can deal with just about anything and B) I can give to just about any model worth its points.
If you do like that however, boy have I got the army for you. Unless you're playing against guard Russ spam, the only thing you really need is missiles, doesn't matter where, Drones, suits or broadsides.
People say Riptides "really aren't that good", but that's only because they're comparing it to the missileside unit that's next to it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 14:24:27
You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/27 14:37:51
Subject: Are tau op?
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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Plz please please let me fight that Tau army.
I have an IG panzer battallion and this as an ally:
Black Templars:
-Chaplain [90 pts]
-Crusaders w/Grav-Pistol, Grav-Gun, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod [170 pts]
-Crusaders w/Grav-Pistol, Grav-Gun, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod [170 pts]
-Drop Pod [35 pts]
[Allied Total: 465 pts]
Ima feth some gak right up on T1.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/27 14:49:50
Subject: Are tau op?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Verviedi wrote: Tau and Ad Mech are a bad matchup because every single unit in the Skitarii dex dies to missile pods, which can be spammed to infinity with Tau.
Ad Mech is not a bad matchup at all, especially thanks to 30 inch Heavy Grav Cannon spam basically neutering all the scary stuff in our Codex. And again I find it amusing so many people think its an insult to bring in allies, its a strength!
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19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/27 14:53:25
Subject: Are tau op?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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DaPino wrote:If I want to get rid of around 130 points of pathfinders that are split into 2 units, I'll probably need around 7 to 10 times that points value in firepower.
How do you figure that? 2 units of 6 with not subpar leadership. 2 wounds to force a leadership check or you could attempt to pin. There are loads of options available. Are thunderfire cannons still a thing?
130 points of Hammerhead just deleted 200 points of vehicle in a single shot because he got 2 markerlights in before I was able to remove every markerlight in the game.
Extremely good luck considering a BS4 hammerhead ignoring cover has a very remote chance of exploding a vehicle in a single shot. However I think you may just be exaggerating to prove some point.
Which appears the entire paragraph is a situation where everything always goes bad for you, and your opponent has markers from 8 different full strength sources that always hit all the time.
You know what I find exciting about building an army? Having to make sure I balance out my squads/equipment so that I'm able to deal with stuff. If I bring nothing but heavy bolters, I will run into a big F'ing problem when there's a Ghost Ark on the table. On the other hand, if I bring nothing but Lascannons, I'm probably ****ed if a green tide shows up.
You know what's the polar opposite of this (and thus, completely, utterly boring to me)? Having a single gun that A) can deal with just about anything and B) I can give to just about any model worth its points.
You mean like a grav gun? Those are pretty versatile. Thunderfire cannons? Is this another IA exclusive problem?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 16:10:14
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/27 16:04:21
Subject: Are tau op?
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Krazed Killa Kan
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The thing about Tau is that they are extremely good at one thing (shooting) and completely innept at close combat and psychic powers. It makes them frustrating because they generally win in a shootout but will die horribly in close combat. There is almost no situation in which Tau would need to charge to neutralize a shooting threat which results in them playing the move and shoot game (or jump shoot jump) to keep a distance from the enemy. Most matchups boil down to Tau outshoots the enemy while the enemy attempts to close the gap and get into close combat to lock down multiple tau units and rip them apart. If Tau can gun down enough of the enemy then they can dominate the board and deter any assaults with their network of supporting fire. If the enemy can avoid enough casualties then it can get in close to mow through the rather squishy Tau infantry.
The problem with Tau is how they are designed to be extreme in their strengths and weaknesses and it creates some fairly binary results. Going 2nd vs Tau is often game losing vs a standard "start you guys on the table" deployment as you end up taking a ton of shooting to the face before you can do anything. In terms of their power they are strong but not nearly to the level of OP that was 6th edtion Taudar. Tau are absolutely horrible in CC still but their shooting isn't unmatched anymore and they still suffer from being rather fragile, especially their markerlight sources.
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"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" |
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