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2015/07/26 19:56:55
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
I love 40k and philosophy and stuff, but yo... I wouldn't write an essay about it.
Its easy, mate. We're not hateful because we're space nazis. We're hateful because, like I (and a handful of other loyal Imperials) have been saying, the only way to fully guarantee that an alien race won't mess us the feth up after signing a peace treaty is to wipe them out in the first place.
Its an imperfect policy, and has cost us a large amount of allies, but it works. If our bloated bureaucracy took on the whole "find out if these dudes are legit" shtick, government would grind to a halt. There is literally no time to waste. Chaos corrupts entire species, and we can't afford to let a single corrupted within our empire.
The only way I'd consider allying with a xenos is if they have a blatant hate for Chaos, like the Eldar and the Tau. We would need to wipe out the DE, but if the CE don't mind, we should be fine. The Harlequins can help, etc. As long as the Tau never again threaten us, we won't destroy them. Simple.
Xenos are hard to decipher. Even my Tau and Eldar solution might not work since the Tau want to take over stuff and the Eldar are super secretive jerks. That's why we kill everything. Better loose a barrage of bolter shells than suffer a multitude of headaches later when the Eldar decide they don't need humans anymore.
In short. You're a heretic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/26 19:58:14
2015/07/26 19:58:26
Subject: Re:Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
Robbert Ambrose wrote:Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
urbanknight4 wrote:
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
My brother. Let us get our bolters and cleanse the heretics and xeno scum from this thread.
In the Name of the God-Emperor (Our Undying Lord), amen to that.
If we don't exterminate them first, the xenos will exterminate us. If the choice is between death to xenos or a return to the Old Night, it seems to me the choice is clear. The xenos have wasted any right to live by murdering and enslaving mankind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/26 21:57:15
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2015/07/26 21:43:38
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
Freshfaceduser I never said I hated Tau. I actually quite like the tau. Just because I view their aggresive expansionism and mis-treatment of minorities as not being particularly nice, doesn't mean I dislike them as a faction. I won't deny that there are many players who have an irrational hatred of the Tau but I'm not one of them.
That being said, to demand someone to view the Tau faction as the good guys because they claim they're doing it for the "Greater good." is no different than demanding someone to view the Imperium's genocide as good because the Imperium says it's justified.
2015/07/26 21:59:42
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
Signet-Powers wrote: Freshfaceduser I never said I hated Tau. I actually quite like the tau. Just because I view their aggresive expansionism and mis-treatment of minorities as not being particularly nice, doesn't mean I dislike them as a faction. I won't deny that there are many players who have an irrational hatred of the Tau but I'm not one of them.
That being said, to demand someone to view the Tau faction as the good guys because they claim they're doing it for the "Greater good." is no different than demanding someone to view the Imperium's genocide as good because the Imperium says it's justified.
I view all sides as evil, and rank them thusly:
Most evil at the top, least evil at the bottom:
-Kayoss (It's also the 2nd, 3rd and 4th through 666th)
-Necrons (Obviously)
-Dark Eldar (At least you can have a conversation while you're wtf-tortured)
-Spess Mehreenz (Uber Nazis in Spehss)
-Eldar (Arrogant, backstabbing, future-knowing bastards)
-The Puny 'Umiez (I just wanna live! EXTERMINATUS FOR THE GOLDEN THRONE!)
-Tau (Orwellian lying space-fish-cows)
-Orkz (Orkz just wanna have fun)
-Tyranids (They're only hungry)
2015/07/26 22:15:04
Subject: Re:Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
A man subjugated is no man at all.
Humanity is enslaved to the will of twelve tyrants on Terra. The idea that you are free to toil away on a mining planet in the name of a corpse or be shot for treason is the greatest of injustices.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
A man subjugated is no man at all.
Humanity is enslaved to the will of twelve tyrants on Terra. The idea that you are free to toil away on a mining planet in the name of a corpse or be shot for treason is the greatest of injustices.
Feel free to stop working, run away from the mines, and immediately get casually bisected by a Chaos cultist. Your superiors know best, citizen. You work like a slave for the Imperium so you won't have to work like a slave for Abaddon, may the Emperor smash his traitorous face in.
2015/07/26 22:38:36
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
Xenos are worthless filth without exception. Xenos, even intelligent and "advanced" (in their own twisted way) races such as the craftworld Eldar or the space-trading Demurig despite their heretical technology and so-called art and culture have nothing to offer humanity. Even greater is that all Xenos are a clear and direct threat to humanity and should be exterminated on sight. This is not "murder" even of Xenos civilians, woman, and children as Xenos by their very definition are inhuman or more accurately sub-human and therefore cannot be considered "a real person". It is akin to more like slaughtering pigs or animals - Tau or Eldar might display sophisticated human-like self-determination. human-like art, culture, trade, and diplomacy but it is a lie and they cannot be considered to have real human behaviour as by definition they are inhuman.
All "inalienable" rights such as that of existence comes from the divine holy Emperor - that much is not in question - hence the irrefutable logic that Xenos have no right to live since their rights do not come from the Emperor. Hence the IoM systematic extermination of Xenos races in the Milky Way galaxy within their power as the Emperor himself envisioned it - the final solution. It is also not in question that Xenos pose a clear and direct threat to the Imperium esp. Tyranid creatures and Chaos Daemonic entities and the fallen humans that worship them which is why they must be exterminated but even more allegedly peaceful Xenos such as the craftworld Eldar and Tau systems should also be exterminated or the very least enslaved to use their labour or for very least for later controlled managed extermination.
However.
How do you answer the question that the Xenos existed BEFORE the Emperor? If all rights come from the emperor than who gave those rights before the Emperor was born? Does that not imply that there was a creator of the universe before the emperor and the Xenos were created by the creator just like humanity? I am not questioning the Emperor's holy divinity but that the Xenos may have an equal right to existence given to them by someone else. Hence, if we accept they have the right to exist we should conclude that the Imperium does not need to go out of our way to exterminate them as Xenos have at the bare minimum the same right to exist as animals and non-sentient beings. Animals such as pigs or goats are farmed and cultivated for human benefit (and consumption) in this fashion I believe we enslave the Xenos or at least the ones that are enslavable (such as Eldar, Tau, Vespids, Demurig, Kroot) as opposed to the uncontrollable ones (such as Orks, Tyranids, Necrons) to make life better for humanity. Instead of extermination fleets we should send out slaver fleets to Tau/Kroot/Exodite Eldar worlds and force them to serve humanity. Call me a humanist for sparing the Xenos.
Of course at your own risk, then there is the discussion that Xenos actually have EQUAL rights to humanity. This is a clear violation of the Imperial Cult and the inquisition will be extremely interested in your opinion should you choose to question the supremacy of humanity and humanitarianism. If we accepted this revolutionary concept then we must conclude we can work, trade, and even live with other Xenos that does not pose a direct immediate threat to us such as the Eldar, Tau, etc. That means we could even work together against our common enemies while of course being on the lookout for any Xenos betrayal. This is extremely heretical.
The plain truth is that going after non-immediate threatening Xenos such as random craftworlds (which are heavily defended and extremely hard/impossible to catch) or attacking Demurig tradeships at random or attacking otherwise peaceful Kroot planets for the sole and only purpose of exterminating them is an extreme drain on resources and obviously the Xenos will retaliate against Imperial aggression. Killing/Exterminating for its own sake is an end in and of itself - this is not blood for the blood god. We are not Chaos Daemon worshippers. This simple fact alone I feel means we should at least leave the somewhat peaceful Xenos the feth alone and focus on the clearly and immediately dangerous ones such as the Tyranids,.
Thoughts?
No, aliens do not have the right to live. Nothing has the right to anything. Everything must be earned in life. The filthy Xenos did not earn their existance, they stole it from the chunks of Mankind's galaxy. They must be purged.
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2015/07/26 22:53:10
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
@Prowler: The Internet, and what people put on it, does depress me. Enormously. Utterly. Completely.
Breaking down the argument into a dichotomy of 'either we kill them all or we die' is a false dichotomy. The idea that for some reason simply negotiating with a species which can be negotiated with and coexisted with requiring inquiry rather than instantaneous extermination would automatically destroy the government of the Imperium is a sensationalist argument. I cannot think of a single instance where fluff prescribed that the Imperial bureaucracy would automatically collapse if required to negotiate with aliens which are open and amenable to it. Also being a heretic by the standards of the Imperium is far from something I'm ashamed of since I do enjoy not being a xenocidal, racist bigot who believes in manifest destiny. So I don't mind being called such at all.
@Signet: I wasn't trying to single anyone out, apologies if you felt that way, and by no stretch do I believe the Tau Empire must be acknowledged by someone as the 'good guys'. I simply become tired of the way some people incorrectly paint them as two-dimensional caricatures.
The above is again a false dichotomy on two philosophical levels. Firstly it assumes there are only two possible alternatives; Abaddon or slave labour for the Imperium, when in a galaxy full of events there will always be multiple alternatives an easy example being simply join the Tau. Secondly it assumes because reality is one way, the oppressiveness of the Imperium which is often unneeded and petty, it is the only and best solution without acknowledging that the very first impediment to argument or philosophical discussion is the insistence or assumption that one group or individual already has an absolute knowledge on a matter. Philosophy concerns critical evaluation of things. The insistence that something is right because it is the case is one of Aristotle's oldest fallacies and ignores the entire idea of the ability to critically reflect on something which defines philosophy.
Put simply the Imperium being a horrific place does not mean it must or ought to be such a hellhole. The moment one simply says as a base assumption; things cannot improve, this is how things must be, one throws away the entire point or concept of critical evaluation and philosophy since one has already prescribed that there is an 'ought' involved.
Then again since philosophy is yet another thing you'd be killed for in the Imperium the moment you moved away from or questioned dogma the entire point is moot. An earlier poster summed up the actual answer to this question, the asker being instantly murdered by the Imperium, very well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/26 23:01:04
2015/07/26 23:26:39
Subject: Re:Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
A man subjugated is no man at all.
Humanity is enslaved to the will of twelve tyrants on Terra. The idea that you are free to toil away on a mining planet in the name of a corpse or be shot for treason is the greatest of injustices.
Feel free to stop working, run away from the mines, and immediately get casually bisected by a Chaos cultist. Your superiors know best, citizen. You work like a slave for the Imperium so you won't have to work like a slave for Abaddon, may the Emperor smash his traitorous face in.
You false dichotomy is disproven by the glory of the Greater Good.
FaceTurnedAway wrote: @Prowler: The Internet, and what people put on it, does depress me. Enormously. Utterly. Completely.
Breaking down the argument into a dichotomy of 'either we kill them all or we die' is a false dichotomy. The idea that for some reason simply negotiating with a species which can be negotiated with and coexisted with requiring inquiry rather than instantaneous extermination would automatically destroy the government of the Imperium is a sensationalist argument. I cannot think of a single instance where fluff prescribed that the Imperial bureaucracy would automatically collapse if required to negotiate with aliens which are open and amenable to it. Also being a heretic by the standards of the Imperium is far from something I'm ashamed of since I do enjoy not being a xenocidal, racist bigot who believes in manifest destiny. So I don't mind being called such at all.
@Signet: I wasn't trying to single anyone out, apologies if you felt that way, and by no stretch do I believe the Tau Empire must be acknowledged by someone as the 'good guys'. I simply become tired of the way some people incorrectly paint them as two-dimensional caricatures.
The above is again a false dichotomy on two philosophical levels. Firstly it assumes there are only two possible alternatives; Abaddon or slave labour for the Imperium, when in a galaxy full of events there will always be multiple alternatives an easy example being simply join the Tau. Secondly it assumes because reality is one way, the oppressiveness of the Imperium which is often unneeded and petty, it is the only and best solution without acknowledging that the very first impediment to argument or philosophical discussion is the insistence or assumption that one group or individual already has an absolute knowledge on a matter. Philosophy concerns critical evaluation of things. The insistence that something is right because it is the case is one of Aristotle's oldest fallacies and ignores the entire idea of the ability to critically reflect on something which defines philosophy.
Put simply the Imperium being a horrific place does not mean it must or ought to be such a hellhole. The moment one simply says as a base assumption; things cannot improve, this is how things must be, one throws away the entire point or concept of critical evaluation and philosophy since one has already prescribed that there is an 'ought' involved.
Then again since philosophy is yet another thing you'd be killed for in the Imperium the moment you moved away from or questioned dogma the entire point is moot. An earlier poster summed up the actual answer to this question, the asker being instantly murdered by the Imperium, very well.
It's a game, dood. Calm down and praise the Emperor. I'm sorry the internet rustles your jimmies, but you're not really supposed to get depressed by something so trivial as this. I hope the Emperor finds it within his eternal compassion to grant you relief.
Robbert Ambrose wrote: Some of the disheveled tau sympathisers in this thread should be remindend that a man subjected to an alien is no man at all.
A man subjugated is no man at all.
Humanity is enslaved to the will of twelve tyrants on Terra. The idea that you are free to toil away on a mining planet in the name of a corpse or be shot for treason is the greatest of injustices.
Feel free to stop working, run away from the mines, and immediately get casually bisected by a Chaos cultist. Your superiors know best, citizen. You work like a slave for the Imperium so you won't have to work like a slave for Abaddon, may the Emperor smash his traitorous face in.
You false dichotomy is disproven by the glory of the Greater Good.
There can be no glory when your will is controlled artificially by the Ethereals. At least a human can choose to die for his brothers. A Tau MUST die for his Ethereal whip-crackers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/26 23:35:31
2015/07/26 23:40:01
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
2015/07/26 23:53:57
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
Kill it with fire unless its a fire ant. In which case you C4 your house and move to Belize.
2015/07/27 00:15:21
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
FaceTurnedAway wrote: @Prowler: The Internet, and what people put on it, does depress me. Enormously. Utterly. Completely.
Breaking down the argument into a dichotomy of 'either we kill them all or we die' is a false dichotomy. The idea that for some reason simply negotiating with a species which can be negotiated with and coexisted with requiring inquiry rather than instantaneous extermination would automatically destroy the government of the Imperium is a sensationalist argument. I cannot think of a single instance where fluff prescribed that the Imperial bureaucracy would automatically collapse if required to negotiate with aliens which are open and amenable to it. Also being a heretic by the standards of the Imperium is far from something I'm ashamed of since I do enjoy not being a xenocidal, racist bigot who believes in manifest destiny. So I don't mind being called such at all.
@Signet: I wasn't trying to single anyone out, apologies if you felt that way, and by no stretch do I believe the Tau Empire must be acknowledged by someone as the 'good guys'. I simply become tired of the way some people incorrectly paint them as two-dimensional caricatures.
The above is again a false dichotomy on two philosophical levels. Firstly it assumes there are only two possible alternatives; Abaddon or slave labour for the Imperium, when in a galaxy full of events there will always be multiple alternatives an easy example being simply join the Tau. Secondly it assumes because reality is one way, the oppressiveness of the Imperium which is often unneeded and petty, it is the only and best solution without acknowledging that the very first impediment to argument or philosophical discussion is the insistence or assumption that one group or individual already has an absolute knowledge on a matter. Philosophy concerns critical evaluation of things. The insistence that something is right because it is the case is one of Aristotle's oldest fallacies and ignores the entire idea of the ability to critically reflect on something which defines philosophy.
Put simply the Imperium being a horrific place does not mean it must or ought to be such a hellhole. The moment one simply says as a base assumption; things cannot improve, this is how things must be, one throws away the entire point or concept of critical evaluation and philosophy since one has already prescribed that there is an 'ought' involved.
Then again since philosophy is yet another thing you'd be killed for in the Imperium the moment you moved away from or questioned dogma the entire point is moot. An earlier poster summed up the actual answer to this question, the asker being instantly murdered by the Imperium, very well.
I think you take the internet a bit too seriously. The world is already fethed up so much, the internet is a nice place by comparison.
The problem with your stance on this question is that you approach it with a 21st century viewpoint. Of course, from our point of view, if 40k were reality, the actions of the IoM are unforgivable and xenos definitely deserve to live. However, the humans of the year 40.000 don't have 21st century morals. From their point of view, killing xenos is good, and letting them live is actually an unforgivable sin. From our 21st century PoV, the reality (or fictional reality if you want to nitpick) of the 40th Millennium is not comprehensible. In the 40th Millennium, critical thinking leads to death and destruction due to the corrupting influence of Chaos. In a world where critical thinking is so dangerous, unflinching dogma evolved as a way for humans to survive. The same goes for xenos. Mankind has been backstabbed, attacked and enslaved by xenos so many times, the 'kill xenos on sight' dogma evolved as a survival mechanism. Of course, that nice xenos species that is so open for negotiation seems friendly and generous now, but how do you know you can actually trust them? Isn't this just a strategy to have you let your guard down so they can enslave your world? Mankind has had too many such experiences with xenos, and therefore has decided that ensuring self-protection by wiping out all the dangerous species weighs more heavily than the risk of wiping out genuinely friendly species. Better safe than sorry, right? The thing about good and evil is that good and evil really don't exist. It is all a matter of where you stand.
There can be no glory when your will is controlled artificially by the Ethereals. At least a human can choose to die for his brothers. A Tau MUST die for his Ethereal whip-crackers.
On Taros, when their Ethereal died, the Tau did not meekly throw down their arms as humans do when their Commissars and other slave-drivers die.
No, the Tau wiped the stain of the Imperial Guard off of their world. Humanity's finest warriors, the Space Marines, tucked their cowardly tails between their legs and fled the righteous might of the Fire Caste!
You do not choose to die. Your Imperial Guard puts a gun to the back of your head and puts a bolt through your skull if you decline. Fire Warriors are born to fight for the Greater Good, and do so cheerfully. Humans are born to choose, but receive no choice in how they live. It is better to command a drone to dig a latrine for the Greater Good than to use a shovel and dig or be shot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 00:52:50
There can be no glory when your will is controlled artificially by the Ethereals. At least a human can choose to die for his brothers. A Tau MUST die for his Ethereal whip-crackers.
On Taros, when their Ethereal died, the Tau did not meekly throw down their arms as humans do when their Commissars and other slave-drivers die.
No, the Tau wiped the stain of the Imperial Guard off of their world. Humanity's finest warriors, the Space Marines, tucked their cowardly tails between their legs and fled the righteous might of the Fire Caste!
You do not choose to die. Your Imperial Guard puts a gun to the back of your head and puts a bolt through your skull if you decline. Fire Warriors are born to fight for the Greater Good, and do so cheerfully. Humans are born to choose, but receive no choice in how they live. It is better to command a drone to dig a latrine for the Greater Good than to use a shovel and dig or be shot.
You kinda just demonstrated a choice:
Choice A: Dig latrine
Choice B: Get shot
Then another one:
Choice A: Fight for glory and the Emperor
Choice B: Be a heretical traitor scum and get shot
It's a poor choice, but at least one they can make. If an Ethereal asks something, a Tau HAS to obey. They have no free will whatsoever, they can't even say they'd prefer death over tyranny because they HAVE to obey. I see no difference between the Tau drones and the Tau themselves.
2015/07/27 01:44:15
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
There can be no glory when your will is controlled artificially by the Ethereals. At least a human can choose to die for his brothers. A Tau MUST die for his Ethereal whip-crackers.
On Taros, when their Ethereal died, the Tau did not meekly throw down their arms as humans do when their Commissars and other slave-drivers die.
No, the Tau wiped the stain of the Imperial Guard off of their world. Humanity's finest warriors, the Space Marines, tucked their cowardly tails between their legs and fled the righteous might of the Fire Caste!
You do not choose to die. Your Imperial Guard puts a gun to the back of your head and puts a bolt through your skull if you decline. Fire Warriors are born to fight for the Greater Good, and do so cheerfully. Humans are born to choose, but receive no choice in how they live. It is better to command a drone to dig a latrine for the Greater Good than to use a shovel and dig or be shot.
You kinda just demonstrated a choice:
Choice A: Dig latrine
Choice B: Get shot
Then another one:
Choice A: Fight for glory and the Emperor
Choice B: Be a heretical traitor scum and get shot
It's a poor choice, but at least one they can make. If an Ethereal asks something, a Tau HAS to obey. They have no free will whatsoever, they can't even say they'd prefer death over tyranny because they HAVE to obey. I see no difference between the Tau drones and the Tau themselves.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
You missed my point. A Tau has no freedom of will. He has to obey, no question. Even if it's, say, an order to massacre an entire village of innocent Tusken Raiders. But a noble human can always choose to die for what's right. And that's why we're superior. Because we don't obey blindly. Because there are worse things than death. A life in perpetual servitude to a master hypnotist is no life at all; the Tau are essentially flesh and blood servitors.
2015/07/27 02:44:34
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
Okay by what standard?
Okay that I can live with it? Okay that other people will not object, and see it as reasonable?
Personally I don't think any of those are okay, but I have instinctually beamed a spider now and then.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
You missed my point. A Tau has no freedom of will. He has to obey, no question. Even if it's, say, an order to massacre an entire village of innocent Tusken Raiders. But a noble human can always choose to die for what's right. And that's why we're superior. Because we don't obey blindly. Because there are worse things than death. A life in perpetual servitude to a master hypnotist is no life at all; the Tau are essentially flesh and blood servitors.
Even if that were true, and its not, I fail to see how that affects gue'vesa. Your choice is to serve the Tau Empire and apply your skills to the service of the Greater Good as best you can, or to have your life wasted by the Imperium of Man.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
You missed my point. A Tau has no freedom of will. He has to obey, no question. Even if it's, say, an order to massacre an entire village of innocent Tusken Raiders. But a noble human can always choose to die for what's right. And that's why we're superior. Because we don't obey blindly. Because there are worse things than death. A life in perpetual servitude to a master hypnotist is no life at all; the Tau are essentially flesh and blood servitors.
Even if that were true, and its not, I fail to see how that affects gue'vesa. Your choice is to serve the Tau Empire and apply your skills to the service of the Greater Good as best you can, or to have your life wasted by the Imperium of Man.
Lol. Look, the moment I can use your same line against you is he moment you need to reconsider your argument. No human's life is wasted. Everyone does their part. I fail to see how you don't understand that. Every servitor has a purpose, every worker a cog on the greater machine of mankind. What, you think that just because you have a pretty little philosophy you're enlightened? Your Ethereals are no more than glorified hypnotists. At least we don't have the gall to call ourselves gods. Only the Emperor can command absolute obedience, and even then... you can refuse him. You can kill his sons. You can wage war against him.
And he will still love you. Just like he loved Horus Lupercal. He had no intention of killing the great betrayer. Only when he saw he was about to die himself did he spare the galaxy of the terror. But he loved him.
Can we say the same of your Ethereals?
2015/07/27 07:00:54
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
Or you could not betray your species too lol. There's no reason to serve the Tau- they're not any less oppressive than the Imperium. While the Imperium is talked up about being "zomgz Nazi Germany 24/7", much to my anger it falls completely flat. Everything the Imperium is justified by their current environment- they're not oppressive in the sense of being idiotic mass carnage like the Nazis or Imperial Japanese who simply killed for the hell of it or using people as scapegoats- but because if you don't an army from hell will rip into our dimension and torture everybody they kill for eternity.
From what we've seen of Imperial World, they honestly aren't that bad unless you live on a genuine gakhole like Necromunda or live in the Underhive where Genestealers or Heretics are liable to eat you alive. But for the average imperial civilian working on a Forge World or the middle of a Hive City, your life is pretty OK. You'll probably live to see your seventies (or older if you're useful and receive augmentation), there's entertainment in the form of cinema, and the only thing awful about the life is a lack of choice/stagnation and remedial jobs where you're either punching numbers or punching buttons.
Plus by our standards Imperial Worlds are pretty liberal. I can't recall ANY oppression of Gays/Lesbians or people of other race son Imperial worlds. There's no Jim Crow Laws, no beating up or murder of people for having another sexuality. The only problem the Imperium has with you is you start significantly mutating (growing scales, tentacles, etc) beyond abhuman standards or start worshiping omnicidal gods of destruction that will kill the entire population if your cult is allowed to grow and expand.
There's no Nazi Germany Death Camps. People aren't lined up and shot simply for their ethnicity, they aren't beheaded or raped for laughs. Looking at human history in real life, most worlds in the Imperium are completely tolerable. Most civilians will never see the Inquisition or invasion by Xenos. They'll just live out lives comparable to living in East Germany in the fifties and sixties. By American/British Standards it may suck, but it's a helluva lot better than Nazi German, the Mongol Horde, Imperial Japan, or the Khmer Rouge.
For all of GW's hype of being so awful and Grim Dark, they are simply awful at conveying any sense of the Imperium being a terrible civilization. Their actions are justified, their fears are real, and outside of scale the Imperium's actions are the games of children compared to what we've done in real life. Ignoring "zomgz billions" from Exterminatus, if you think what the Imperium does is horrible- you are horribly ignorant of human history. Authors always try to create horrible civilizations and evil villains, but so often they fall short as they fail to grasp how bad humans can be reality.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 07:01:12
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2015/07/27 07:06:10
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
Or you could not betray your species too lol. There's no reason to serve the Tau- they're not any less oppressive than the Imperium. While the Imperium is talked up about being "zomgz Nazi Germany 24/7", much to my anger it falls completely flat. Everything the Imperium is justified by their current environment- they're not oppressive in the sense of being idiotic mass carnage like the Nazis or Imperial Japanese who simply killed for the hell of it or using people as scapegoats- but because if you don't an army from hell will rip into our dimension and torture everybody they kill for eternity.
From what we've seen of Imperial World, they honestly aren't that bad unless you live on a genuine gakhole like Necromunda or live in the Underhive where Genestealers or Heretics are liable to eat you alive. But for the average imperial civilian working on a Forge World or the middle of a Hive City, your life is pretty OK. You'll probably live to see your seventies (or older if you're useful and receive augmentation), there's entertainment in the form of cinema, and the only thing awful about the life is a lack of choice/stagnation and remedial jobs where you're either punching numbers or punching buttons.
Plus by our standards Imperial Worlds are pretty liberal. I can't recall ANY oppression of Gays/Lesbians or people of other race son Imperial worlds. There's no Jim Crow Laws, no beating up or murder of people for having another sexuality. The only problem the Imperium has with you is you start significantly mutating (growing scales, tentacles, etc) beyond abhuman standards or start worshiping omnicidal gods of destruction that will kill the entire population if your cult is allowed to grow and expand.
There's no Nazi Germany Death Camps. People aren't lined up and shot simply for their ethnicity, they aren't beheaded or raped for laughs. Looking at human history in real life, most worlds in the Imperium are completely tolerable. Most civilians will never see the Inquisition or invasion by Xenos. They'll just live out lives comparable to living in East Germany in the fifties and sixties. By American/British Standards it may suck, but it's a helluva lot better than Nazi German, the Mongol Horde, Imperial Japan, or the Khmer Rouge.
For all of GW's hype of being so awful and Grim Dark, they are simply awful at conveying any sense of the Imperium being a terrible civilization. Their actions are justified, their fears are real, and outside of scale the Imperium's actions are the games of children compared to what we've done in real life. Ignoring "zomgz billions" from Exterminatus, if you think what the Imperium does is horrible- you are horribly ignorant of human history. Authors always try to create horrible civilizations and evil villains, but so often they fall short as they fail to grasp how bad humans can be reality.
Exalted!
2015/07/27 07:29:52
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
Yes, just because its there. Its always okay to kill anything, as nothing is intricately important to some great cosmic plan. You won't be condemning the universe by stomping on the fether. Or hunting big game, or even murder. The only thing that should concern you when killing something is "what are the consequences?" Which in those scenarios, are insignificant, possibly endangering the species and ecosystem, plus jail, and immense heartache for the family, plus jail. If you can live with the consequences then go for it, but don't bring morality into something that existed long before humans even crawled out of the sea, killing.
Xenos are no different. Its okay to kill them because
-you're scared of it, they have dangerous skills and weaponry
-it wants/is stealinf your resources, planets, food, etc
- It's colony/Craftworld/Expanionism/tendril/tomb is infesting your house/galaxy
-its there. Its not human and a direct threat to humanity. So shoot it dead, Exterminatus their world, flamer to the remains and jettison the remains to the nearest star. Clear out their holdings, take everythinf useful for the Ad Mech to examine and determine if not-heretical enough to be used by Humanity, study the rest if they ever pop back up so easy kills.
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2015/07/27 07:35:44
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
From an in universe perspective, genocide is justified. Its pretty much the premise of the setting.
From an IRL perspective, let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes...
Question 1:
Is it okay to kill an ant in the following circumstances (Y/N):
-It's there
-You're scared of it
-It wants to eat your food
-It /is/ eating your food
-There is a colony in your house
Yes, just because its there. Its always okay to kill anything, as nothing is intricately important to some great cosmic plan. You won't be condemning the universe by stomping on the fether. Or hunting big game, or even murder. The only thing that should concern you when killing something is "what are the consequences?" Which in those scenarios, are insignificant, possibly endangering the species and ecosystem, plus jail, and immense heartache for the family, plus jail. If you can live with the consequences then go for it, but don't bring morality into something that existed long before humans even crawled out of the sea, killing.
Xenos are no different. Its okay to kill them because
-you're scared of it, they have dangerous skills and weaponry
-it wants/is stealinf your resources, planets, food, etc
- It's colony/Craftworld/Expanionism/tendril/tomb is infesting your house/galaxy
-its there. Its not human and a direct threat to humanity. So shoot it dead, Exterminatus their world, flamer to the remains and jettison the remains to the nearest star. Clear out their holdings, take everythinf useful for the Ad Mech to examine and determine if not-heretical enough to be used by Humanity, study the rest if they ever pop back up so easy kills.
I was going to wait until FTA replied, but here's my answers:
-It doesn't matter
-It doesn't matter
-It doesn't matter
-Why would you put it above your own survival?
-KILL IT WITH FIRE
An exception should be made with sentient creatures so that we can maintain the moral high ground when they try to feth us up.
Like with sentient robots, it's a matter of WHEN and not IF.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/27 07:36:49
2015/07/27 16:50:48
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
How does the experience of being Tau affect being Gue'vesa? I fail to see how human experiences are changed by aliens doing alien things... past that the aliens are less tyrannical to the humans they oversee than the Imperium of Man is to the humans they oversee.
You missed my point. A Tau has no freedom of will. He has to obey, no question. Even if it's, say, an order to massacre an entire village of innocent Tusken Raiders. But a noble human can always choose to die for what's right. And that's why we're superior. Because we don't obey blindly. Because there are worse things than death. A life in perpetual servitude to a master hypnotist is no life at all; the Tau are essentially flesh and blood servitors.
Even if that were true, and its not, I fail to see how that affects gue'vesa. Your choice is to serve the Tau Empire and apply your skills to the service of the Greater Good as best you can, or to have your life wasted by the Imperium of Man.
Lol. Look, the moment I can use your same line against you is he moment you need to reconsider your argument. No human's life is wasted. Everyone does their part. I fail to see how you don't understand that. Every servitor has a purpose, every worker a cog on the greater machine of mankind. What, you think that just because you have a pretty little philosophy you're enlightened? Your Ethereals are no more than glorified hypnotists. At least we don't have the gall to call ourselves gods. Only the Emperor can command absolute obedience, and even then... you can refuse him. You can kill his sons. You can wage war against him.
And he will still love you. Just like he loved Horus Lupercal. He had no intention of killing the great betrayer. Only when he saw he was about to die himself did he spare the galaxy of the terror. But he loved him.
Can we say the same of your Ethereals?
Every man who died in the attack on Taros was wasted. The Imperium routinely spends the lives of millions attacking worlds they have no hope of capturing. It routinely wastes lives attacking fortified positions when it would be wiser to retreat and fight another day. As many have pointed out, the single most common resource- and thus the one with the least value- is human life. As I have stated, the Tau value drones- non-sapient machines- more than the Imperium values human life. Better manufacturing technology- like the Tau possess- would result in fewer deaths in industrial accidents. The Imperium lacks safety standards and adequate medical care for its masses because, ultimately, you are worth less than the raw materials that make up your home.
The Tau value humans more than that. They merely seek to free them from the squalor and oppression of the Imperium.
The Emperor's love apparently has not worked out particularly well for humanity. The Emperor loves you so long as you are willing to work in horrifying conditions or fight with obsolescent and obsolete weapons. His love means nothing if someone on the opposite side of your planet is found to be worshipping Chaos- your life will be sacrificed as if it was nothing.
"No man who has died for the Emperor has died in vain."
At the end of the day, the hallmarks of liberal democracy don't exist in 40K. This is a dystopian setting, where life is cheap, and a soldier is of less value than the weapon they carry, and civilians exist only to be exploited as labor to feed the machines of warfare, for there is only war.
Bill of Rights? Civil liberties? Right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Please. These things don't exist in 40K. They don't actually exist in reality, either, which is why we have to defend these rights.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/07/27 17:14:06
Subject: Philosophical Discussion. Should Xenos have the right to exist? Or should they be killed on sight.
The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops
Wyzilla wrote: Or you could not betray your species too lol. There's no reason to serve the Tau- they're not any less oppressive than the Imperium. While the Imperium is talked up about being "zomgz Nazi Germany 24/7", much to my anger it falls completely flat. Everything the Imperium is justified by their current environment- they're not oppressive in the sense of being idiotic mass carnage like the Nazis or Imperial Japanese who simply killed for the hell of it or using people as scapegoats- but because if you don't an army from hell will rip into our dimension and torture everybody they kill for eternity.
From what we've seen of Imperial World, they honestly aren't that bad unless you live on a genuine gakhole like Necromunda or live in the Underhive where Genestealers or Heretics are liable to eat you alive. But for the average imperial civilian working on a Forge World or the middle of a Hive City, your life is pretty OK. You'll probably live to see your seventies (or older if you're useful and receive augmentation), there's entertainment in the form of cinema, and the only thing awful about the life is a lack of choice/stagnation and remedial jobs where you're either punching numbers or punching buttons.
Plus by our standards Imperial Worlds are pretty liberal. I can't recall ANY oppression of Gays/Lesbians or people of other race son Imperial worlds. There's no Jim Crow Laws, no beating up or murder of people for having another sexuality. The only problem the Imperium has with you is you start significantly mutating (growing scales, tentacles, etc) beyond abhuman standards or start worshiping omnicidal gods of destruction that will kill the entire population if your cult is allowed to grow and expand.
There's no Nazi Germany Death Camps. People aren't lined up and shot simply for their ethnicity, they aren't beheaded or raped for laughs. Looking at human history in real life, most worlds in the Imperium are completely tolerable. Most civilians will never see the Inquisition or invasion by Xenos. They'll just live out lives comparable to living in East Germany in the fifties and sixties. By American/British Standards it may suck, but it's a helluva lot better than Nazi German, the Mongol Horde, Imperial Japan, or the Khmer Rouge.
For all of GW's hype of being so awful and Grim Dark, they are simply awful at conveying any sense of the Imperium being a terrible civilization. Their actions are justified, their fears are real, and outside of scale the Imperium's actions are the games of children compared to what we've done in real life. Ignoring "zomgz billions" from Exterminatus, if you think what the Imperium does is horrible- you are horribly ignorant of human history. Authors always try to create horrible civilizations and evil villains, but so often they fall short as they fail to grasp how bad humans can be reality.
... that's probably because GW wants to sell models to children. Even the Chaos Gods fail to live up to the horrors of our modern world.
