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Mr. Correct wrote:
I think it's amusing that there are people who actually think GW would make more money if they wrote better rules or put more research into their writing. Such a naive and childlike understanding of the world, these people have. Such baffling ignorance of the way business works in the real world.

The truth of course is that rules are worthless. They're just words arbitrarily scrawled onto a piece of paper. GW is a company that makes models, and they only publish rules as an accessory for the models. They couldn't care less if you like the game or even if you play the game. They just want you to buy the models.

The quality of rule writing and testing have never affected a game's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with pretty playing pieces is worth ten billion perfectly written rulesets.

All 3 of our cooperating clubs with about 100 members in total have almost entirely switched from purchasing via webstores to buying from recasters. Not because we cannot afford it, quite in the contrary. But because of the rules. We decided to no longer support a company that purposefully releases a poorly developed product. Take that as anecdotal experience, if ya want, but the last purchase alone was about a (at GW prices) 30.000$ net loss for them.

+1

As contradictory as it seems, I also started to seek out recasts as a way to not support GW, without cutting my own nose off.

The fact they offer more compelling prices was, initially at least, a bonus. These days I simply don't think I could afford to have the freedom with hobbying I currently enjoy without the cheaper prices, so the pricing has become increasingly important.

That said, the prices are so far out of whack on some lines for me, that I struggle to see the value in even the recast prices.

 Azreal13 wrote:
A rabid, over enthusiastic element is a normal element of fandom, and I don't see them being blamed for putting people off a more casual interest in any movie series, TV series, pop group, celebrity etc etc.

What he ^^^^^^^ said....

NFL
NASCAR
FIFA

Fan root = fanatic.

I don't know how many here ever watched "The Highlander", tv series but I remember an episode where they were searching for someone, and one of the helpers was out front of a GW shop with the main characters saying there was no one in there but strange people.

 Azreal13 wrote:
+1

As contradictory as it seems, I also started to seek out recasts as a way to not support GW, without cutting my own nose off.

The fact they offer more compelling prices was, initially at least, a bonus. These days I simply don't think I could afford to have the freedom with hobbying I currently enjoy without the cheaper prices, so the pricing has become increasingly important.

That said, the prices are so far out of whack on some lines for me, that I struggle to see the value in even the recast prices.

I think we've been tru this discussion before, but recasts are absolutely not worthy. I bought a recast one, the promise that there is no delivery cost was a lie, they still charged me with 8 dollars. Still cheaper than GW, but when the stuff arrived at the customs I had to pay extra 20% tax just for receiving stuff from outside the EU (that's not an issue on Chinese end, but still it's some problem for me). Then the quality... well I spent hours of cutting hulls and other parts in order to make something and then after I broke some of the parts I realized that I actually have to put those parts in Boiling water and then fix them by hand. At the end of all this whole thing I saved... 10 or maybe 15 bucks and it's really not worthy.

Many apologies for de raling the thread like that.

Sorry, but the rest of you are just plain wrong. GW has explicitly stated in interviews that they are a toy company that makes toy soldiers. Toys come first, rules come in fifteenth place in terms of GW's priorities. This is because GW makes money by selling minis and fiction, not rules. That's just the way it is. If you disagree with me then you are wrong and ignorant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
See, one of the biggest problem with you gamer types is that you think the world revolves around you. It doesn't. GW doesn't care if you play the game or not. They want to sell their pretty models to little Jimmy, the boy whose mommy can only afford 400 points of models. Thousands upon thousands of people buy the models without ever fully diving into the game or associating with a gaming group. The models are the point of the company. That's why Citadel Miniatures owns Games Workshop, not the other way around.

Mr. Correct wrote:
Sorry, but the rest of you are just plain wrong. GW has explicitly stated in interviews that they are a toy company that makes toy soldiers. Toys come first, rules come in fifteenth place in terms of GW's priorities. This is because GW makes money by selling minis and fiction, not rules. That's just the way it is. If you disagree with me then you are wrong and ignorant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
See, one of the biggest problem with you gamer types is that you think the world revolves around you. It doesn't. GW doesn't care if you play the game or not. They want to sell their pretty models to little Jimmy, the boy whose mommy can only afford 400 points of models. Thousands upon thousands of people buy the models without ever fully diving into the game or associating with a gaming group. The models are the point of the company. That's why Citadel Miniatures owns Games Workshop, not the other way around.

Again, it doesn't matter what GW are trying to be, or what they believe, the majority of models for tabletop Wargaming get sold to be used in the games. They make money selling models because people (less and less people) buy them to use in the game, most of the time. There's people who buy just to paint or whatever, but most people buy to game. If you disagree with me you are wrong and ignorant.

Sockpuppet trolling is sad. You should find a more productive hobby.

 Da Boss wrote:
Sockpuppet trolling is sad. You should find a more productive hobby.

...if you disagree with me, you are wrong and ignorant.

Just to set straight a couple of points of fact;

GW has not been making a loss for some years. It's just that their sales have been declining for two and a half years. This does not stop them making a profit though if the decline is not halted obviously they will eventually run into losses.

The ICV2 report covers part of the games industry. If we assume it is not unrepresentative, we can see the miniature games segment has not grown from 2012-13, to 2013-14. However we know that GW's sales fell in those two years, therefore the non-GW part of the segment must have grown.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Just to set straight a couple of points of fact;

GW has not been making a loss for some years. It's just that their sales have been declining for two and a half years. This does not stop them making a profit though if the decline is not halted obviously they will eventually run into losses.

The ICV2 report covers part of the games industry. If we assume it is not unrepresentative, we can see the miniature games segment has not grown from 2012-13, to 2013-14. However we know that GW's sales fell in those two years, therefore the non-GW part of the segment must have grown.

Sales does not increase but the income stays the same... I don't know about you, by for me this means only one thing: no new people coming into the hobby, but dedicated old fans that are paying more and more.

Mr. Correct wrote:
I think it's amusing that there are people who actually think GW would make more money if they wrote better rules or put more research into their writing. Such a naive and childlike understanding of the world, these people have. Such baffling ignorance of the way business works in the real world.

The truth of course is that rules are worthless. They're just words arbitrarily scrawled onto a piece of paper. GW is a company that makes models, and they only publish rules as an accessory for the models. They couldn't care less if you like the game or even if you play the game. They just want you to buy the models.

The quality of rule writing and testing have never affected a game's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with pretty playing pieces is worth ten billion perfectly written rulesets.

7/10

Mr. Correct wrote:
Sorry, but the rest of you are just plain wrong. GW has explicitly stated in interviews that they are a toy company that makes toy soldiers. Toys come first, rules come in fifteenth place in terms of GW's priorities. This is because GW makes money by selling minis and fiction, not rules. That's just the way it is. If you disagree with me then you are wrong and ignorant.

.

Maybe but you'd sell a lot more models if the rules worked better, the strawman 'Little Jimmy's Mom' customer's total spend is going to be considerably less than people buying whole formations and armys, along with the paint and sundrys that needs.

Mr. Correct wrote:
Sorry, but the rest of you are just plain wrong. GW has explicitly stated in interviews that they are a toy company that makes toy soldiers. Toys come first, rules come in fifteenth place in terms of GW's priorities. This is because GW makes money by selling minis and fiction, not rules. That's just the way it is. If you disagree with me then you are wrong and ignorant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
See, one of the biggest problem with you gamer types is that you think the world revolves around you. It doesn't. GW doesn't care if you play the game or not. They want to sell their pretty models to little Jimmy, the boy whose mommy can only afford 400 points of models. Thousands upon thousands of people buy the models without ever fully diving into the game or associating with a gaming group. The models are the point of the company. That's why Citadel Miniatures owns Games Workshop, not the other way around.

Ooooh, some other poster made that same mistake a week or two back.

If I can just find the post where I correct the I can get this troll ass account and the other one shut down for good.

Back in a minute...

"Why do people think GW is somehow unintelligent?"

Because an increasing number of their decisions seem less than intelligent......

I don't normally post in threads like these...

But I think that the culture of the players can play an effect on how a game is perceived to new people. I will not play flames of war because of their neckbeards and "WWII know it alls" that must point out any inconsistency with real life.


Is this saying its the only reason? Nope... There is no one reason. Is it one OF the reasons, of course it is. Along with high prices, rules with holes in them, and losing their effective monopoly in the wargaming world. But they do seem to get a lot of harsh feelings aimed at them for acting like a corporation focused on shareholder wealth.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Again, it doesn't matter what GW are trying to be, or what they believe, the majority of models for tabletop Wargaming get sold to be used in the games. They make money selling models because people (less and less people) buy them to use in the game, most of the time. There's people who buy just to paint or whatever, but most people buy to game. If you disagree with me you are wrong and ignorant.

How about if I don't disagree with you, but just don't give a crap what you have to say?

Geek is making fun of another poster who likes to put in absolutes that paint anyone who disagrees with them as being wrong, ignorant, stupid, or whatever else.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Mr. Correct wrote:
Sorry, but the rest of you are just plain wrong. GW has explicitly stated in interviews that they are a toy company that makes toy soldiers. Toys come first, rules come in fifteenth place in terms of GW's priorities. This is because GW makes money by selling minis and fiction, not rules. That's just the way it is. If you disagree with me then you are wrong and ignorant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
See, one of the biggest problem with you gamer types is that you think the world revolves around you. It doesn't. GW doesn't care if you play the game or not. They want to sell their pretty models to little Jimmy, the boy whose mommy can only afford 400 points of models. Thousands upon thousands of people buy the models without ever fully diving into the game or associating with a gaming group. The models are the point of the company. That's why Citadel Miniatures owns Games Workshop, not the other way around.

Ooooh, some other poster made that same mistake a week or two back.

If I can just find the post where I correct the I can get this troll ass account and the other one shut down for good.

Back in a minute...

lol. Inspector Azreal. I love the search function on this site, it took like 3 seconds to find what you were talking about.

 Blacksails wrote:
Geek is making fun of another poster who likes to put in absolutes that paint anyone who disagrees with them as being wrong, ignorant, stupid, or whatever else.

Ah, my apologies then to Geek.

Dude the "friendly" LGS staff is at least as rabid as any fan, just in a different way. Far from being the people you could share an anecdote with and have a laugh about your latest game, they use any opportunity now to say you should buy X. Only the other day one tried to sell me ANOTHER "Retributor Armour" spray after I had just bought one. Y'know, to make sure I "don't run out". Never mind that I hadn't even told them what I wanted it for. They're like sharks now and have made it uncomfortable to be there. It never used to be that way. Not even ten years ago did they ask if you want more things with every purchase. Gone are the big staff led games where anyone could put a unit down and join in as that would distract from badgering customers to buy more "toy soldiers" The gaming space is now much smaller, and constantly hogged by 40k players who "booked" ahead. On Thursday gaming nights? 40k campaigns, can't get a game at all if you played fantasy. If you're like me and live only a drive away from GW HQ and have a group of friends there who all play all day on a wednesday than great, but if you rely on your LGS to get any game at all than seriously - good luck with that. One can tell instantly that the stores have changed due to directives from HQ.

Relapse wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Geek is making fun of another poster who likes to put in absolutes that paint anyone who disagrees with them as being wrong, ignorant, stupid, or whatever else.

Ah, my apologies then to Geek.

No worries. It was a word for word copy of the last sentence of the post I was replying to. Probably should've quoted it.

hammeyaneggs wrote:
I don't normally post in threads like these...
.

Dear Penthouse, I don't normally write letters to magazines, but I had this experience...

TBM wrote:
Dude the "friendly" LGS staff is at least as rabid as any fan, just in a different way. Far from being the people you could share an anecdote with and have a laugh about your latest game, they use any opportunity now to say you should buy X. Only the other day one tried to sell me ANOTHER "Retributor Armour" spray after I had just bought one. Y'know, to make sure I "don't run out". Never mind that I hadn't even told them what I wanted it for. They're like sharks now and have made it uncomfortable to be there. It never used to be that way. Not even ten years ago did they ask if you want more things with every purchase. Gone are the big staff led games where anyone could put a unit down and join in as that would distract from badgering customers to buy more "toy soldiers" The gaming space is now much smaller, and constantly hogged by 40k players who "booked" ahead. On Thursday gaming nights? 40k campaigns, can't get a game at all if you played fantasy. If you're like me and live only a drive away from GW HQ and have a group of friends there who all play all day on a wednesday than great, but if you rely on your LGS to get any game at all than seriously - good luck with that. One can tell instantly that the stores have changed due to directives from HQ.

I think you should clarify there you're talking about GW stores and not FLGS's.

I think you should clarify there you're talking about GW stores and not FLGS's.

Yeah I'm talking about the GW stores. I'm saying they used to qualify as FLGS's but haven't in years.

 Azreal13 wrote:


Ooooh, some other poster made that same mistake a week or two back.

If I can just find the post where I correct the I can get this troll ass account and the other one shut down for good.

Back in a minute...

What, this one from here:

Chairman Aeon wrote:
All this "destroying 30 years of Warhammer" gnashing reminds me of how the new Mustang isn't a Mustang because it doesn't have a live rear axle. It ignores the fact that time has moved on and what came before wasn't that great to begin with. It's obvious GW wasn't worried about current players so we can assume there was little downside to alienating them. Hence WHFB doesn't seem financially viable for GW (in the long term).

People also forget, Citadel Miniatures took over Games Workshop. The fact we still refer to the miniatures as Citadel is a constant reminder of which is the dog and which is the tail.

So, if you don't like the new rules I'm sorry for you. Felt the same when Rogue Trader became Warhammer 2nd Edition, I no longer played space elf pirates and now had to play Vulkan Sohei. But I'm actually interested in new rules and new fluff at the ground floor much like I was when Warmachine came out.

And no one can take away your current rules and minis. Epic players didn't care that GW abandoned them. Actually freed the players to make the changes they wanted.

Iain.

Aye, that's the one!

Mr. Correct wrote:
Sorry, but the rest of you are just plain wrong. GW has explicitly stated in interviews that they are a toy company that makes toy soldiers. Toys come first, rules come in fifteenth place in terms of GW's priorities. This is because GW makes money by selling minis and fiction, not rules. That's just the way it is. If you disagree with me then you are wrong and ignorant.

Gw don't do interviews. :p

But yes, this is what gw says. But wanting this to be the state of affairs and saying this is the state of affairs does not mean this is the state of affairs. Corporate spin 101.

Rules are a bonus. Good rules helps push a gsme for more than just little Timmy.

Mr. Correct wrote:

See, one of the biggest problem with you gamer types is that you think the world revolves around you. It doesn't. GW doesn't care if you play the game or not. They want to sell their pretty models to little Jimmy, the boy whose mommy can only afford 400 points of models. Thousands upon thousands of people buy the models without ever fully diving into the game or associating with a gaming group. The models are the point of the company. That's why Citadel Miniatures owns Games Workshop, not the other way around.

What gw wants isnt necessarily what it is.

Oh I get that they don't care. Im also well aware I'm not the target age group. And I'm also well aware thst gw's churn and burn policies, and a focus on selling to little Timmy, along with many other short term focused decisions has had the company stagnate and solely decline.

Mr. Correct wrote:
Sorry, but the rest of you are just plain wrong. GW has explicitly stated in interviews that they are a toy company that makes toy soldiers. Toys come first, rules come in fifteenth place in terms of GW's priorities. This is because GW makes money by selling minis and fiction, not rules. That's just the way it is. If you disagree with me then you are wrong and ignorant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
See, one of the biggest problem with you gamer types is that you think the world revolves around you. It doesn't. GW doesn't care if you play the game or not. They want to sell their pretty models to little Jimmy, the boy whose mommy can only afford 400 points of models. Thousands upon thousands of people buy the models without ever fully diving into the game or associating with a gaming group. The models are the point of the company. That's why Citadel Miniatures owns Games Workshop, not the other way around.

So do you get paid per post or per word?

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Mr. Correct wrote:
Sorry, but the rest of you are just plain wrong. GW has explicitly stated in interviews that they are a toy company that makes toy soldiers. Toys come first, rules come in fifteenth place in terms of GW's priorities. This is because GW makes money by selling minis and fiction, not rules. That's just the way it is. If you disagree with me then you are wrong and ignorant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
See, one of the biggest problem with you gamer types is that you think the world revolves around you. It doesn't. GW doesn't care if you play the game or not. They want to sell their pretty models to little Jimmy, the boy whose mommy can only afford 400 points of models. Thousands upon thousands of people buy the models without ever fully diving into the game or associating with a gaming group. The models are the point of the company. That's why Citadel Miniatures owns Games Workshop, not the other way around.

So do you get paid per post or per word?

+1.

This from the sig:
"Citadel Miniatures and its de facto marketing divisions Games Workshop and Forge World are toy companies. Before you complain about the rules or boast of your elite gaming skills, remember that you are playing with toy soldiers designed for a 12-year-old target demographic. "

Although we do have this in a thread about $ per points:


And this in a (now locked) AoS thread:


I declare him a demi-apologist.